Berthold

[MoP] Protection Warrior

144 posts in this topic

you were obviously right with exp providing spell hit. I should stop replying early in the morning. Will comment on the other things soon.

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Theck posted on the mr robot forums and said that exp and hit are exactly equal until caps. So, having 15% exp and 0% hit are the same as 7.5% exp and 7.5% hit

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Theck posted on the mr robot forums and said that exp and hit are exactly equal until caps. So, having 15% exp and 0% hit are the same as 7.5% exp and 7.5% hit

I still believe that expertise only affects dodge and parry chance and hit only affects miss chance. They are still practically exactly identical until caps, even though they are technically different. 7.5% hit removes chance to miss, 7.5% expertise removes target's chance to dodge, and the last 7.5% expertise (to 15% total) removes target's chance to parry. Each provides an equal amount of chance of landing an attack (parry obviously only if you hit from front), but they do it in different ways. It would be silly to have two stats do the exact same thing.

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I still believe that expertise only affects dodge and parry chance and hit only affects miss chance. They are still practically exactly identical until caps, even though they are technically different. 7.5% hit removes chance to miss, 7.5% expertise removes target's chance to dodge, and the last 7.5% expertise (to 15% total) removes target's chance to parry. Each provides an equal amount of chance of landing an attack (parry obviously only if you hit from front), but they do it in different ways. It would be silly to have two stats do the exact same thing.

Yeah, so 15% exp and zero hit would leave you with zero chance for the boss to parry or dodge your attack but 7.5% for your attack to miss. 7.5 hit and 7.5 exp would leave you with zero chance for your target to dodge the attack and zero chance for your target to be missed, but 7.5% chance to parry. Same shit either way. The boss has an equal chance of dodging/paarying/being missed intially.

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Regarding mastery being valued better than hit/exp by others. There is an undocumented internal cooldown of 3 secs for gaining rage from a critical block. It might be that Theck didn't implement this when doing his analysis. This has a significant impact on the mastery value.

Hit being valued slightly above expertise is due to thunderclap ignoring parry/dodge anyways.

I just ran the latest simcraft for a T14H tank getting hit by 700k before mitigation every 2.5secs:

SBlock on CD, extra rage into SBar

Hit: 0.7, Exp: 0.66, Mastery 0.62, Parry 0.48, Strength 0.47, Dodge 0.43

SBar on CD without overwriting the buff

Hit: 0.68, Exp: 0.67, Parry 0.51, Strength 0.5, Dodge 0.46, Mastery 0.4

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Thunderclap has such a minimal impact on a boss fight though. Unless you are add tanking, where it will be used on cooldown basically, you use it once every 30 seconds or maybe not at all if someone in your raid can apply the "weakened blows" debuff. Still, I see what you're saying weird the Mastery has that pointless internal cooldown, but Theck said that Mastery is definitely slightly better in terms of total damage reduction.

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If somebody else is providing weakened blows, then Hit/Exp are identical.

And regarding Mastery: As I was saying, without modeling the ICD of Crit Block, mastery is better. Taking it into account, it loses a lot of its value. I would assume that this is the reason why theck and I/Simcraft come to different results.

Without the ICD our defensive capability would scale with the number of mobs, i.e., 10 mobs hitting for 20k would give us more rage (thus more active mitigation) than a single mob hitting for 200k. We would be a lot better on multi-target fights than the other tanks (Prot Pala trash tank anyone??). So this might be the reason for it.

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Not only Thunderclap, but Shockwave (not sure about that) and Dragon Roar (definitely) aren't affected by expertise as well. While Dragon Roar is offensive only, Shockwave can have defensive value on stunnable targets.

Without the ICD our defensive capability would scale with the number of mobs

We still have an effect that does this: Revenge resetting on avoiding.

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You are definitely right, yet the revenge resetting only scales up to a small number of mobs, as we only can hit revenge every 1.5 seconds at most. We also do not want to clip Shield Slam, so assuming combined dodge+parry of 25%, three mobs with a swing timer of 1.5 are already giving enough procs: Over 6 seconds we are attacked 12 times, thus dodge or parry 3 times, allowing for SS ->Rev -> Rev -> Rev

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but Theck said that Mastery is definitely slightly better in terms of total damage reduction.

I believe this is the follow-up blog which Theck posted - L90 Warrior Mitigation Followup | Sacred Duty

I think that whether you use hit and expertise comes down to a damage smoothing argument. Hit and expertise might not give you the highest TDR, but they give you more Shield Barriers to use in the gaps between SB casts, which smooths your damage intake. It’s much the same rationale as the “Bleed†vs “Shield Barrier Only†comparison in the blog post.

I’m in the “damage smoothing†camp myself, so I see no problem with aiming for hit and expertise caps (soft or hard, depending on preference) before stacking more mastery.

I understand Theck's analysis misses some points raised earlier in the thread, but the conclusion on his analysis was that by gearing towards hit and expertise, you smooth damage taken.

Tanks are usually killed in a burst window of 3-4 unmitigated hits, which can be smoothed by having Hit and Expertise.

My experience is that it's very difficult to smooth spike damage when you cannot guarantee that rage generators will land in a specific time window before a burst ability.

Further, Theck's analysis showed that hit and expertise were very powerful stats in a "tank switch" scenario, due to being able to start tanking with 120 rage pooled. These situations also represent a majority of actual tanking situations in current content, with the only "solo tank" boss being Spirit Kings heroic (where only Meng and Subetai do any appreciable melee damage), Zorlok in normal (where there are repeated breaks in melee damage being taken), and arguably Mel'jarak (where you can revenge enough to keep full rage anyway).

Lastly, I'm finding in MoP that the damage I am contributing as a tank is much more relevant than in previous expansions. This comment in anecdotal, but for me, the difference between contributing 40k DPS and 80k DPS is significant in terms of overall encounter success compared to keeping up-time on Shield Block/Shield Barrier as high as possible in situations where it is actually unnecessary.

To go back to your original question, this is why I've chosen the gearing strategy I'm currently using.

However with a reforging mount and reforgelite, it's very straightforward to change stat allocations around on a per fight basis if necessary.

TLDR

It's really no different than the latest prot warrior theorycraft which says mastery is THE BEST STAT, when in reality warrior mastery is a giant fucking pile of shit. It relies on you gaining rage via crit block which assumes the boss is constantly hitting you at a reasonable quick pace which hasn't happened in like 3 expansions or something.

On a separate topic for the fight specific talents/glyphs, I have a few more observations:

Spirit Kings:

You can get some decent mileage out of Shockwave and Stormbolt for dealing with Subetai's Slight of Hand ability. You can keep him stunned for the full duration (until pillage) with both if you don't have someone else in the raid to deal with it. You can also interrupt pillage completely with a stun (use the ability as pillage comes off cooldown).

Vigilance is reasonably useful for protecting people hit by pinning arrow, though other classes have much better tools for dealing with that than we do.

I usually run DPS increasing glyphs for this boss (e.g. Incite, HTL) as only Meng does any real damage.

Elegon:

I prefer to use Dragon Roar with Bloodbath for burst on the adds between phases (I group them all up with Mocking Banner for AoE/Control). Glyph of Heroic Leap is also handy, as on whichever crystal wave your group struggles with the most you can utilise a Bloodbath'ed Leap and Dragon Roar to hit all three crystals on one side and knock off a good third of the HP, plus the followup damage from the bleed.

Will of the Emperor:

I quite like Piercing Howl, to drop a slow on Courage's which spawn on my side, but this is temporary and very situational. Vigilance is handy to allow certain classes to soak Titan Sparks if they have weaker personal cooldowns.

Avatar is useful if a Courage actually reaches you. In reality this shouldn't happen, but it's nice in case it does.

Glyph of Leap and Enraged Speed are semi-useful, for dodging devastating arcs if you have trouble with that.

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Thanks for the pointers tauftamir.

Regarding potions: We have the option to use the 4k STR or the 12k armor. The first gives a little bit less than 4% parry and a damage increase, the other 4% points more dmg reduction,i.e.,~5% less dmg taken.

Both Added to the OP.

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In your case tauftalmr, you have a lot of heroic gear so your mastery rating isn't taking nearly as big a hit as mine would by going all out for hit/exp. Also, I don't think any body is questioning the superior value of stamina to anything else. Every single one of you're gems should be stamina or hybrids. You are very right about the massive dps increase when going to a more hit/exp build. Fights like elegon and garalon have very tight enrages, every little bit helps. I even noticed a big dps increase when favoring hit over expertise. So for whatever reason hit is indeed more valuable. Im going to stick with the mastry over hit/exp build for the sole reason of not wanting to have to rely ENTIRELY on active mitigation.

One more thing, shockwave/ dragon roar cost zero rage and do huge damage and threat what is wrong with hitting these on cd along after your priorities? Even on a single target.

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One more thing, shockwave/ dragon roar cost zero rage and do huge damage and threat what is wrong with hitting these on cd along after your priorities? Even on a single target.

Nothing wrong with it, but Dragon Roar offers more DPS so I tend to favour it over Shockwave unless the stun component is useful. The only bosses which spring to mind are Feng Heroic (add spawns) and Lei Shi. Dragon Roar is also slightly easier to weave into the priority due to the minute cooldown, which also syncs nicely with Bloodbath.

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Is there a BiS gear listing available? The links in the OP link through to wowhead but don't actually have any items in them.

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Is there a BiS gear listing available? The links in the OP link through to wowhead but don't actually have any items in them.

hmmm, the links give me a by slot gear ranking. Could you double check?

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hmmm, the links give me a by slot gear ranking. Could you double check?

Got it, sorry didnt notice they way it worked at first :).

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One more thing, shockwave/ dragon roar cost zero rage and do huge damage and threat what is wrong with hitting these on cd along after your priorities? Even on a single target.

You're basically trading out survivability to do more damage, so its situational. By using SW or Dragon's Roar, you're choosing NOT to Devastate, which means you're choosing to give up a chance of a Sword and Board Proc, which would negatively affect your rage gen and cut into your Shield Barrier/Shield Block uptime.

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The next simcraft release will calculate scalefactors for stamina. The formula was inspired by a discussion with DrChem:

For all our other stats we take a look at how 1 point of the stat changes the incoming damage. For stamina, we look how 1 point of stamina changes the incoming damage relative to our health pool, i.e., how much percent we are getting hit less. This is then scaled back to incoming damage.

This gives us a means to see how much we can reduce "health bar movement" with either stamina or dodge, etc.

Block on CD, extra rage into SBar

Stamina: 1.44, Mastery 0.78, Hit: 0.72, Exp: 0.68, , Parry 0.67, Strength 0.69, Dodge 0.64

SBar on CD without overwriting the buff

Stamina: 1.06, Hit: 0.68, Exp: 0.67, Parry 0.67, Strength 0.65, Dodge 0.63, Mastery 0.4

As 5.1 just got released I will wait a couple of days to see whether everything's behaving properly in the sim before updating the OP. (sometimes Blizzard rearranges spelldata in the client, which makes simcraft go bonkers)

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Maybe I'm missing the point, but why is there a focus on relative damage intake as % of your total hp? There's literally one healing class that gives even the smallest of fucks about your hp % (shaman), and even then, their healing gets stronger the lower your hp % is. Stacking stam works against that healing mechanic, as any given hit will keep you at a higher hp %, and thereby negate/reduce their mastery.

So what value is there in keeping your hp at a higher relative % such that stacking stamina beyond the minimum EH threshold is even remotely valuable in comparison to other stats that reduce damage taken?

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A health bar that depletes slower means that you have more time before you die, and more importantly, your healers have more time to react to your health bar depleting. This doesn't take healer mana pool into account, though.

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Maybe I should clarify (numbers are made up):

Lets assume we have a T14H prot warrior and are interested in the benefits of dodge rating and stamina.

With our current gear we are getting hit by Sha of Fear resulting in ~ 36k dps (or ~ 5% of our HP) income, i.e, we die after 20 secs without heal.

We now have the trinket of awesome dodging that gives 10k dodge rating. This would reduce the damage taken to ~ 30k dps ( or 4.2% HP), i.e, we die after 24 secs without a heal.

The other option is the trinket of massive stamina that gives 15k stamina. Damage taken would still be 36k dps, but this is now ~3.8% of our HP, i.e., we die after 26 seconds without a heal.

To be clear: I am not saying that we are taking less damage, I am saying that we take longer to die (in this example). The benefit of the latter should be obvious. However, this stresses healer mana more and you need to decide whether you can afford it in your raid comp.

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So taking 6k DPS less is the inferior outcome in your opinion? Really?

This is the same EH crap that gets rehashed every damn expansion, and it's always the same. Some "theorycrafter" comes up with the idea that being able to survive 60 seconds without any incoming healing is a worthwhile goal. Hint: it's not. The scenarios where stacking EH at the expense of DR beyond the minimum threshold is beneficial never happen.

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This is neither about my personal opinion nor did I say that this is the inferior outcome. I (and other theorycrafters) are just trying to understand what implications the different gearing and playstyles have, put some numbers on it, and share their results.

Pros and Cons of avoidance vs EH have been discussed too often and I am not going to start a discussion here.

p.s. if you were actually asking for my personal opinion I would point to the fact that in current 25 man heroic mode, healers put out ~500-600k HPS with 20-30% overheal of which tanks usually need less than 50k.

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Anyone here know if a dodged/parried/blocked/ and/or missed devastate can trigger a sword and board proc? The tooltip wording seems ambiguous since the expansion.

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