Berthold

[MoP] Protection Warrior

144 posts in this topic

Since 5.2 I've been getting the consistent result in simcraft that mastery is not only eclipsing dodge/parry but also hit/expertise in terms of avoidance. Can anybody else confirm this?

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Looks *very* slightly ahead if use SBlock / SBarrier. (due to the SBarrier Nerf, additional hit/expertise isn't too valuable here)

However with a SBarrier only build it is way down below.

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Assuming that gte(level,85) means "greater than or equal" the expression evaluates to 150% AP which is way more than the current 120%. We will know more as soon as simcraft has latest dbc files.

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This might just be the tooltip correction for the 25% damage buff hotfix that is already live.

GC mentioned on twitter that Shield Slam damage will be reduced at lower levels in 5.3, which would explain the other part.

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Will simulationcraft soon include prot warriors in its simulationcraft.org reference data? I am having a lot of difficulty getting the current version to run, whereas 430-4 was running fine when I last used it. Tried installing every version of VC++ 2008, 2010, 2012, x86 and 64, openssl 101c and 101e, no luck. Clicking simulationcraft.exe doesn't do anything; program appears in tasklist for a few seconds and then disappears.

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As long as we do not have properly working modules for all tank classes, I wouldn't expect any update on simcraft.org in this regard. You might want to create an issue at simcraft's website, this EJ thread isn't really the appropriate place to handle this.

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So I'm noticing shield barrier giving me way less damage taken under most parts. I really only use shield block when I am trying to do more damage (enrage+glyph of heavy repercussions). If I am already hit/exp capped should I still get mastery or should i just do hit > exp >parry > dodge > mastery

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Shield Barrier only will give you less total damage taken, Shield Block only will give you smoother damage intake. Hybrid strats aren't better, other than things that are not blockable or not absorbable.

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Shield Barrier only will give you less total damage taken, Shield Block only will give you smoother damage intake. Hybrid strats aren't better, other than things that are not blockable or not absorbable.

I understand, but avoidance scales better with shield barrier than mastery does, and mastery works better with shield block. Is it worth it to gem/reforge avoidance and use only shield barrier

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I currently choose to do that for our 10-man group. Mobs generally don't hit hard enough in 10-man to make spikes super dangerous so in talking with my healers we opted for the lower total damage taken. This means I do less damage than other warriors (no heavy repercussions) but it has worked for us so far.

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I'm still using hybrid personally. I use Sbar spam for max active mitigation but when damage isn't threatening or when tanking multiple targets, i still like my good ole shield block. Also, shield block is total win on heroic megara when you have a head that has 100% increased attack speed. It levels out damage so much better than shield barrier. Late to discussion, but in the end it's just all situational for me really. Cannot really dispute shield block for something like dread thrash or a super fast attack speed mob or a bunch of mobs meleeing at once, vs some boring slow swing speed boss which clearly favors SBar no questions asked. Fortunately, blizz throws a mix of each at us. I could reforge all the time, but ultimately I just favor a hybrid build. Heck, back to megara, i actually need the hybrid build. Shield barrier spam on fire head for example but shield block on frenzied venom head with a barrier weaved in for breaths (since head doesn't melee swing during that).

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I understand, but avoidance scales better with shield barrier than mastery does, and mastery works better with shield block. Is it worth it to gem/reforge avoidance and use only shield barrier

It really isn't, even if you forwent hit and expertise to solely focus on dodge and parry, the DR would hit you so hard in the face you'd barely get any value from it. Block is best for more fights than barrier (excepting situations where it's prudent to slide a barrier in, such as breaths). Mastery is still ahead.

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It really isn't, even if you forwent hit and expertise to solely focus on dodge and parry, the DR would hit you so hard in the face you'd barely get any value from it. Block is best for more fights than barrier (excepting situations where it's prudent to slide a barrier in, such as breaths). Mastery is still ahead.

I'm not sure why people continue to perpetuate this line of thought. Parry rating always provides more combat table coverage than mastery regardless of where you are on the DR curve. And given that we can't have 100% up-time on shield block, it makes a lot of sense to gear for the 3 second gaps.

Mastery ends up being ~22% better than avoidance during shield block in terms of TDR, but falls to 55% of it's value between blocks. Gearing for when we are vulnerable is not a mistake.

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This avoidance vs. mastery debate is quite interesting.  I may be wrong, but I figured avoidance will become a better option once I have a larger health pool to provide healers time to recover on the spikes in damage. So I'm just waiting to have a pair of stam trinks.

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Most of information in this thread is old (pre riposte). Avoidance is now the popular stacking do to 5.4 and riposte turning avoidance into crit, and crit giving us more rage and more damage. You'll find most warriors now stack avoidance despite mastery being the smoother stat/mitigation.

 

I even use a the IJ dodge trinket vs a 2nd stam trinket just for the dual bonus (trivial heal but also a bunch more crit via the dodge).

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...despite mastery being the smoother stat/mitigation.

 

Not sure why this lie keeps getting perpetuated.

 

In my gear,

 

while shield block is down:

Avoidance rating is 261% more likely to reduce 10.75 times more damage than mastery rating.

 

while shield block is up:

Mastery rating is 22% more likely to reduce 48% less damage that avoidance rating would.

 

Which means that while you are least vulnerable (while shield block is up). Mastery technically does a better job of smoothing damage than avoidance (even though you take almost twice the damage). However, since no amount of gear can break 67% uptime on shield block, you're much better off gearing for when you are most vulnerable.

 

Even independent of the damage throughput argument, avoidance is a much better survivability stat than mastery.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjS-yRwHEzQ2dHRaOVBNVUJ4R1R3cW5ZR29lWVdHcmc&usp=drive_web#gid=5

Edited by Booi

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Which means that while you are least vulnerable (while shield block is up). Mastery technically does a better job of smoothing damage than avoidance (even though you take almost twice the damage)

Smoother ~= better. You do take less damage with avoidance mathematically over course of fight but mastery does provide a less spikey intake. Getting an unlucky string of hits where dodge/parry let you down is very dangerous.

 

So, while avoidance is a better mitigation stat, no one has ever argued that, mastery was always better for reducing spike damage and making damage intake more consistent. There is a reason a lot of warriors were using mastery build until 5.4 added riposte. I'm pretty sure theck had numbers on the comparison at one point or another. Riposte was basically a bandaid fix to warriors and DKs because they were avoiding avoidance. 

Also, assuming a 67% up time on block is also flawed. When me and theck simmed this, we factored in the average tank swap of 30 seconds (often even less on the harder fights, heroic garrosh you swap every 20-25). If most tanks swapped every 30 seconds during an encounter, then you actually sustained a greater up time on shield block. With charges regenerating during non tank moments, you can actually chain 3 shield blocks back to back (18 seconds straight) after a fresh taunt. I remember on grand empress taunts swapped often enough to have a near 100% up time on shield block while tanking the main boss. Garrosh you have 100% up time on shield block while tanking (unless you are using a gimmicky one tank strat).

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but mastery does provide a less spikey intake.

Citation needed.

 

heroic garrosh you swap every 20-25

Heroic Garrosh is often solo-tanked, this point is largely moot. Even with 100% uptime on shield block, avoidance rating reduces twice the damage at 82% of the probability.

Probability of damage reduction does not necessarily mean you have an easier tank to heal. Taking the example to the extreme, 100% uptime on 1% damage reduction is not easier to heal than 90% uptime on 90% damage reduction.

 

EDIT:

A large reason that people tend to think mastery reduces spikes better than avoidance is a mis-representation of the piece-wise nature of warrior tanking.

 

In the simulations you'll often see people look at spike reduction over a certain number of swings

 

What follows are the worst case scenerios for 8 swing melees.

 

Case 1.

BBBBMMBB

Even naked you are taking only 77.5% of possible incoming damage (hooray shield block)

 

But your actual worst case is Case 2:

MMBBBBMM

85% of incoming.

 

So when people look at the effects of mastery on those streaks, even converting one block to a critical block pulls you below the 75% spike range.

 

However, that same rating budget, applied to avoidance instead of mastery, will take the 85% spike below a 70% spike more frequently than the mastery budget would take it to 75.

 

When you look at the smallest streaks avoidance much better at reducing the spikes (Even in bis gear, garrosh can still 2 shot you), and any streaks looked at above six are largely useless due to the cyclical nature of warrior tanking. This seems to always be overlooked when people are analyzing the spikiness of a tank.

Edited by Booi

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