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Calicia

MoP Fire Mage Compendium 5.1 - Pyros'R'Us

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when using Invocation, is it better to cast Evo right when the buff expires or when there are 5 seconds (roughly the evo channel time) left on it?

When you are evocating, you are doing no DPS (except for DoTs). Evocating sooner increases your downtime. If you wait for your buff to drop off, you will be evocating at a time when you aren't doing significant DPS, so your lack of buff lines up with lack of DPS.

So, wait.

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If you wait for your buff to drop off, you will be evocating at a time when you aren't doing significant DPS, so your lack of buff lines up with lack of DPS.

You may want to refresh 2 seconds before Invocation fades, to avoid having the last FB or Pyro cast right after the buff fades. Of course if FB/Pyro damage is calculated at cast instead of land time (is it?), then that's less of an issue.

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I have been curious about this and I did a few quick calculations based on my own stat weights

brilliant - (160*1.1)*3.83 = 674.08

potent - ((80*1.1)*3.83) + ((160)*1.97) = 652.24

smooth - (320)*1.97 = 630.4

Which means that gemming potent gems to get a socket bonus will be nearly always worth it and other than that gem pure int.

The only thing that may invalidate this is if simcraft accounts for the 1.1 multiplier in its stat weights.

Which it does afaik.

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You may want to refresh 2 seconds before Invocation fades, to avoid having the last FB or Pyro cast right after the buff fades. Of course if FB/Pyro damage is calculated at cast instead of land time (is it?), then that's less of an issue.

They are calculated at cast as most spells are.

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Glyph of Mirror Image is now a DPS increase for Fire Mages. It still does not allow the mirror images to cast Fire Blast, but the extra damage from Fireball makes up for it.

Thanks. Added to glyphs section.

I believe a better test would be Fireball if Pyro dot is up and scorch to fish when it isn't--though I doubt scorch will beat fireball under any real circumstances.

Edit: I ran Simcraft under all 3 circumstances with results: PoM=79k, Scorch=69k, Scorch if no Pyro=77k. Scorch if no pyro and Fireball with PoM sim pretty close.

Thanks. Amended rotation to list Scorch to HU fish only when there's no Pyro DoT.

The rotation section advices using Incanter's Ward and Evocation "whenever off CD", which seems incorrect to me.

Depending on the encounter, casting Incanter's Ward on CD would be a significant DPS loss. IW's passive damage bonus is inactive while it is on cooldown. Therefore, unless you can reliably expect non-trivial damage at some point in the next 8 seconds, casting IW will pointlessly reduce your damage by 6% for the next 25 seconds. So perhaps instead of advising casting on CD, the rotation should say to cast IW either when expecting incoming raid damage, or when there is fire nearby that can be ran into, within the next 8 seconds.

Similarly, Evocation should not be used on CD, but instead whenever the damage buff has expired. Evocation with the Invocation talent has only a 10 second CD while the damage buff lasts for 40 seconds, so casting on CD is significantly suboptimal.

Good points. Amended rotation advice to take them into account.

I think most boss encounters at the moment allow for IW to get the damage required to be useful, either through raid-wide damage or through doing something like running into an amethyst pool or the like, so using it on CD right now is viable for bosses, though not necessarily for trash. I haven't seen any of the Heart of Fear or Terrace stuff yet, though, so don't know if it would be viable in there.

To add some clarification on the ignite for combustion build up, and your statement about only using !pyro if HU is procced.

assuming !pyro+Hu. you should proc your !pyro with IB and continue to fireball till you have these conditions.

Always start with a fireball. because of the 0.5s cancel delay on HU. If you Fb->!pyro Even if only the !pyro crit you get another !pyro, since the first !pyro lands within the 0.5s cancel delay. if Both crits you get !pyro+Hu and can get lucky and get another !pyro.

This is another reason i find PoM to be overvalued, as i normally have little problems getting 2-4+ pyros into my AT combination. and even without AT its not uncommon to get 2-3+ pyro's

Also activating AT prematurely results in less than the +6s to basicly all trinkets pots and hero at pull, and should be taken into consideration.

I have also seen people suggest using IB if you get a Hu during this chain, and normally it would be 2-3 pyro in to the chain that it is suggested, i find this somewhat stupid as IB lowers your ignite by a large amount, assuming you have 2-3 pyro's in your ignite pool, you might as well combust at this point or take your chances of a higher ignite after AT reset.

I'm assuming you're referring to this part?:

[*] (Pyro only if Pyro! and HU have both procced)

I'm not suggesting Pyro only ever is cast if you have a Pyro! + HU combo, only that casting Pyro becomes higher on the priority list if both are procced in order to take advantage of both, rather than risk losing the Pyro!

I'm also not completely clear on what you're suggesting with Pyro! + HU. If you have both, you shouldn't cast IB until you've cast Pyro, otherwise the Pyro! proc from HU + IB will overwrite the existing Pyro! proc. If you go Pyro - IB - Pyro on a Pyro! + HU combo, then I don't see where the 0.5 sec delay comes into it, unless the second Pyro crits and gives another HU. At which point there's not much you can do except FB (or Scorch) and hope for a second crit from there before HU drops off, since IB is on CD (unless Combustion is off CD and you can use it to reset IB).

I've noted about using AT with approx. 6 sec left on buffs, thanks :)

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I'm not suggesting Pyro only ever is cast if you have a Pyro! + HU combo, only that casting Pyro becomes higher on the priority list if both are procced in order to take advantage of both, rather than risk losing the Pyro!

I'm also not completely clear on what you're suggesting with Pyro! + HU. If you have both, you shouldn't cast IB until you've cast Pyro, otherwise the Pyro! proc from HU + IB will overwrite the existing Pyro! proc. If you go Pyro - IB - Pyro on a Pyro! + HU combo, then I don't see where the 0.5 sec delay comes into it, unless the second Pyro crits and gives another HU. At which point there's not much you can do except FB (or Scorch) and hope for a second crit from there before HU drops off, since IB is on CD (unless Combustion is off CD and you can use it to reset IB).

I've noted about using AT with approx. 6 sec left on buffs, thanks :)

I am saying Pyro should only be cast with HS+HU->Fb->!pyro. This will never overwrite a HS. It will generate a higher chance of another HS, compared to just HS+HU->!pyro.

Edit: I have cleared up my first post i hope it will bring some clarification to my point, sorry for the confusion.

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Love your work on this thread. :-)

Notes:

You list Glyph of mirror images under Major Glyphs but it is a Minor Glyph.

Clarification:

8. Fireball (or glyphed FFB) if Pyro DoT is on target, Scorch if it isn't (and you have the talent)

I am a little confused about scorch. Might be the wording or just me not knowing "something". I assume you recommend casting scorch to proc an ignite DoT but the way it is worded it sounds like you are referring to a Pyro DoT ?

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Love your work on this thread. :-)

Notes:

You list Glyph of mirror images under Major Glyphs but it is a Minor Glyph.

Clarification:

I am a little confused about scorch. Might be the wording or just me not knowing "something". I assume you recommend casting scorch to proc an ignite DoT but the way it is worded it sounds like you are referring to a Pyro DoT ?

Ack, you are correct, that's what I get for making edits at the end of an 18 hour day :)

I am referring to a Pyro DoT - using Scorch's faster cast time to 'fish' for a crit to get HU to proc so you can get a Pryo out asap, then switching to FB as the main filler once the Pyro DoT is up.

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Thanks. Added to glyphs section.

I'm also not completely clear on what you're suggesting with Pyro! + HU. If you have both, you shouldn't cast IB until you've cast Pyro, otherwise the Pyro! proc from HU + IB will overwrite the existing Pyro! proc. If you go Pyro - IB - Pyro on a Pyro! + HU combo, then I don't see where the 0.5 sec delay comes into it, unless the second Pyro crits and gives another HU. At which point there's not much you can do except FB (or Scorch) and hope for a second crit from there before HU drops off, since IB is on CD (unless Combustion is off CD and you can use it to reset IB).

Indeed overwrite an existing Pyro! is a mistake.

You can't use Combustion in order to reset IB to get a Pyro! from your HU. COmbustion direct damages will effect the HU proc after your combo and waste it or make it a Pyro!.

I think our rotation is led by COmbustion CD.

When it's avalaible, for each HU proc with IB on CD, you may cast FB, to make a bigger ignit. (the more with 5.1, and the combustion ignoring pyro dot)

When it's on CD,the goal is to get Pyro! procs, we may cast the better ( %crit/sec incant ) spell, and that's scorch

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Living Bomb's explosion occurs when you let it drop off or if you refresh it when it has under 2 seconds left.

Didn't believe the author in THIS guide, but after trying it in raid and on target dummies, I can confirm it does work that way.

I don't know if it was common knowledge, but I was under the impression the explosion happened only if you would let it drop off.

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Reading through this I noticed one (to my knowledge) inaccuracy:

Also note that if you have Windsong on your weapon and are using Invocation pre-pull, it's a good idea to unequip your weapon before casting your Evocation, then reequip it as you pull, to prevent a Windsong proc from being wasted.

Windsong has no cooldown, so if it does proc from evocation, you lose nothing. There might be a minor merit in doing that due to how windsong (and other RPPM procs) chance now depends on the time from last spell cast (up to 10 seconds), which makes your first spell have a higher chance of activating it, but I suspect this timer might reset when you re-equip the weapon (quite tricky to test, actually). Also, because of this mechanic, it should be benefitial to pop haste cooldowns (e.g. bloodlust) before your first spell lands, to further increase the chance of getting your proc off the bat (this also applies to Jade Spirit).

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Reading through this I noticed one (to my knowledge) inaccuracy:

Windsong has no cooldown, so if it does proc from evocation, you lose nothing. There might be a minor merit in doing that due to how windsong (and other RPPM procs) chance now depends on the time from last spell cast (up to 10 seconds), which makes your first spell have a higher chance of activating it, but I suspect this timer might reset when you re-equip the weapon (quite tricky to test, actually). Also, because of this mechanic, it should be benefitial to pop haste cooldowns (e.g. bloodlust) before your first spell lands, to further increase the chance of getting your proc off the bat (this also applies to Jade Spirit).

I've tested this on live and almost everytime I use Evocation pre-pull with my weapon equipped it procs windsong and the duration runs out before I can get optimal usage out of it for my first Combustion. I've had great success proc wise equipping my weapon post-Evo. I've yet to have a single pull using this method without windsong proc'd during my first combustion. I can't say with 100% certainty that the timer doesn't reset, but as I've stated, I've yet to have a pull without it proccing almost immediately.

I wouldn't go as far as popping bloodlust before my first spell lands, but if you have an on-use haste trinket or something to that effect, I would agree that popping that right before your first spell lands would be optimal, in the same way you pre-pot and pop all your other on-use trinkets etc right before your first spell lands.

It ultimately comes down to having nothing to lose by unequipping your weapon and requipping it after Evo, but gaining a chance to have better timing on procs at the beginning of the fight so you might as well do it. :)

(inb4 1% wipe because someone forgot to re-equip their weapon)

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Living Bomb's explosion occurs when you let it drop off or if u refresh it when it has under 2 seconds left.

Didn't believe the author in THIS guide, but after trying it in raid and on target dummies, I can confirm it does work that way.

I don't know if it was common knowledge, but I was under the impression the explosion happened only if you would let it drop off.

You can actually push it to anything under 3s and it will still explode.

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It ultimately comes down to having nothing to lose by unequipping your weapon and requipping it after Evo, but gaining a chance to have better timing on procs at the beginning of the fight so you might as well do it. :)

Easy way to automate the swap:

1. Set up two equipment sets, one with no weapon and one with your windsong weapon.

2. Macro set swaps into your abilities.

#showtooltip Evocation

/equipset FireNoWeapon

/cast Evocation

#showtooltip Mage Bomb

/equipset FireWeapon

/cast [nochanneling] Mage Bomb

Repeat for other abilities. Given no ICD, no downside to this approach I can see.

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Regarding refreshing the Living Bomb 3 seconds earlier.

First of all, i can confirm that the explosion does occur if you recast living bomb the instant the tooltip goes from "3 seconds remaining" to "2 seconds remaining".

Whether it is beneficial to do so or not, is not so obvious.

Living bomb lasts 12 seconds, with a single explosion at the end of the duration.

If you recast living bomb every 10 seconds, you get more frequent explosions, but you do not get more ticks.

More to the point, anyone who maintains 100% bomb uptime over a period of 60 seconds will get the same amount of ticks, regardless of how many bombs he casts. Casting a bomb every 10 seconds as opposed to every 12 seconds increases the amount of explosions per minute by 1, but sacrifices a second's worth of casting time, reducing the amount of time a player has to dedicate to main rotation from 55 seconds per minute to 54 (in perfect latency conditions).

Is the additional explosion per minute worth losing a second from every 55 seconds of main rotation? Tough call.

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regarding the rotation: are you saying the best possible rotation atm is to cast pyro! only when you have HS and HU up? but waiting till the last second to pyro! in case the HU doesn't proc? or am i getting it wrong? i tried it on the dummy and most of the times after the HS procced, sometimed it could expire if i was waiting for a new HU proc

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regarding the rotation: are you saying the best possible rotation atm is to cast pyro! only when you have HS and HU up? but waiting till the last second to pyro! in case the HU doesn't proc? or am i getting it wrong? i tried it on the dummy and most of the times after the HS procced, sometimed it could expire if i was waiting for a new HU proc

No, I'm saying that casting Pyro moves up the priority order when both Pyro! and HU have procced. I put it in brackets to indicate that this was a conditional step, but I'll try to find a clearer way of putting it.

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Easy way to automate the swap:

1. Set up two equipment sets, one with no weapon and one with your windsong weapon.

2. Macro set swaps into your abilities.

#showtooltip Evocation

/equipset FireNoWeapon

/cast Evocation

#showtooltip Mage Bomb

/equipset FireWeapon

/cast [nochanneling] Mage Bomb

Repeat for other abilities. Given no ICD, no downside to this approach I can see.

I use this exact macro except I add in a line before the /cast to use my potion and pop my resin trinket. You're correct though, it works like a charm.

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I'm sure many of you are either working on Garalon or were, and certainly will be on Heroic. Regarding spreading Combustion, I've seen a few mages say they can spread it from body to legs, but on our attempts the other night that didn't work a single time for me. I even tried to line it up with an animation in which the legs seemed closer to the body.

You can spread from legs to body for sure, but can anyone actually verify if you can spread from body to legs? Thanks.

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It worked for me last night:

[20:47:33.437] Garalon afflicted by Combustion from Nathanbp

[20:47:33.649] Nathanbp casts Inferno Blast on Garalon

[20:47:33.839] Nathanbp Inferno Blast Garalon *43002*

[20:47:34.262] Garalon's Leg afflicted by Combustion from Nathanbp

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Combustion did spread seem to spread from his body to legs, but only seemed to spread to a single leg (regardless of how many were up), never consistently the same leg either.

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For me combustion did spread from body->2legs. But only from leg->body.

What i did was using the legs bonus damage to build up a large ignite and then spread combustion from legs to body, if another leg got healed i would spread combustion from body to that leg.

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Regarding refreshing the Living Bomb 3 seconds earlier.

First of all, i can confirm that the explosion does occur if you recast living bomb the instant the tooltip goes from "3 seconds remaining" to "2 seconds remaining".

Whether it is beneficial to do so or not, is not so obvious.

Living bomb lasts 12 seconds, with a single explosion at the end of the duration.

If you recast living bomb every 10 seconds, you get more frequent explosions, but you do not get more ticks.

More to the point, anyone who maintains 100% bomb uptime over a period of 60 seconds will get the same amount of ticks, regardless of how many bombs he casts. Casting a bomb every 10 seconds as opposed to every 12 seconds increases the amount of explosions per minute by 1, but sacrifices a second's worth of casting time, reducing the amount of time a player has to dedicate to main rotation from 55 seconds per minute to 54 (in perfect latency conditions).

Is the additional explosion per minute worth losing a second from every 55 seconds of main rotation? Tough call.

Assuming you have perfect latency, and you wait for living bomb to drop off before refreshing, you are most likely still going to miss .5-2 seconds (from current cast) at least, which means you WILL miss ticks. I use the 'you can detonate with 3 seconds left' as a safety net situation. Once I stop casting and my living bomb is within that range, I reapply.

As for whether it is worth it? Just look at the damage numbers. Living bomb explodes for 1395 +104.5% sp (wowhead), fireball is ~1500 (average) +150%sp. Fireball takes ~2x the cast time (at a reasonable haste level). Clearly, the LB explosion is worth more than half the fireball. The only other complication I can think of is ignite (~15% of fireball dmg over 4 sec), which LB does not proc. But even with that included, LB comes out ahead (significantly).

I would say it is ideal to refresh LB asap - and in doing so, maximise the explosions - but not at the expense of cancelling a spell cast (obviously).

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I came across a spread sheet with the haste break points for mages. Since it's not published here yet I figured I'd share it. It says that for a non goblin, not using frost armor, with the 5% raid buff wants 3036 haste for living bomb, 3056 for nether temptest, 3056 for glyphed combustion, and 4052 for unglyhphed combustion. The link includes every other variation too.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AsDL8HE-bGDVdFFVWlIzbzQ5RFJJZGFyQ25xZmFYa0E#gid=39

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