Indz

ShadowCraft for Mists of Pandaria

582 posts in this topic

SimCraft has historically been way off in terms of modeling rogues and stat values, it was one of the main reasons why the community prefered using the various sim sheets and in turn shadowcraft.

Also be aware that EP values do fluctuate with gear, and generally the advice given in the combat guide thread is at BiS levels, so you may actually find in some instances that Agility will infact be stronger than Haste, depending on which items you are picking up and replacing.

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How does the valor upgrade work on trinket procs anyways? Is it as simple as proc_value*(new_ilvl/old_ilvl), or is it something else?

It's not that easy. But easier than item scaling. I will give you an example:

1. You need some data sources.

The Random Properties Datatable which holds the scaling of items dependend of the quality and slot of the item.

This is the Table i'm using in the UI: https://github.com/cheald/shadowcraft-ui/blob/master/lib/wow_armory/data/RandPropPoints.dbc.csv

column 0 is the itemlevel

column 1-5 is for epic quality items

column 6-10 is for blue quality items

coumn 11-15 is for green quality items

Relic of Xuen, Epic, itemlevel 476 we found 1930.

Relic of Xuen Upgrade Level 1 , Itemlevel 480, we found 2004

Relic of Xuen Upgrade Level 2 , Itemlevel 484, we found 2080

2. We need the actuall Spell Proc Scaling

The scale number can be found e.g. here https://simulationcraft.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/engine/dbc/sc_spell_data.inc

For Relic of Xuen it's 1.5684000254

3. Simple Math

1930 x 1.5684000254 = 3027,012049022 (rounded to 3027)

2004 x 1.5684000254 = 3143,073650902 (rounded to 3134)

2080 x 1.5684000254 = 3262,272052832 (rounded to 3262)

This would also be possible, possible working for trinket procs, but not for items because of rounding issues. So I would suggest to use the above method.

3027 * 2080 / 1930 = 3262,259067358

Hope this helps.

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I can store the scale factor for each proc, a base ilvl and upgrade type, and a table of proc constants for every ilvl. Then you would just pass 0, 1 or 2 for the number of stat boosts on the item, and I could pull from tuple[x]. Would that be easier for the frontend then?

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Yes, would be the easiest way to pass the proc_name + upgrade_level. And for the ep calculation you can return an array for every proc_name.

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After many problems the Item Upgrade feature is now online.

If you can't access the webpage, please try clearing you cache or try in private-browser mode or test with another browser, before you post about an issue.

You can upgrade an Item if you click on the golden text 0/2 or click the up-arrow near the itemname. When you are at maximum (e.g. 2/2) you can click again to be at 0/2 again.

Under the settings tab you can also select to show all upgrades in the ranking when you want to change an item.

Trinket procs for upgrades are currently using the ep from the base item because the engine is not yet supporting the procs.

Please note that the Wowhead tooltips are not 100% correct, hopefully wowhead will fix it soon.

The Item stats in the shadowcraft-database should be after many tests correct. If you think an Item has the wrong stats please report.

Edit: No 5.1 Rogue change is active.

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Not sure if this is the right place to ask. I am trying to use shadowcraft on an android tablet and all seems to work, just not the scrolling of the gear frame.

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I know this is probably not top priority, but if it's not too difficult, is there anyway to add an option to lock specific gem slots and enchants on the web front end at some point? This was a great utility on Mr. Robot that I found quite useful at times. Thanks again!

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I've been using SC for some time .. and first off let me tell you how great of a tool it is and how much it is appreciated.

I'm experiencing an issue using it as of late. I bring up my character and hit refresh from armory .. get all my new gear showing then hit "Auto Reforge All" and it shows me what I need to reforge. Then I hit Optimize gems and it shows almost all my gems need to be changed and then shows a a drop in my dps after gemming as they recommend. This cant be right.

Last week .. i had reforged and gemmed just as they said when I got a new piece of gear and i did it today to make make sure it was all right and this all happened. Why would i re-gem almost everything to drop my dps.

I even removed all reforge from everything and started from scratch. PLUS it has me way over hit cap.

Before I Hit Reforge and Optimize Gems 77027.7 DPS (+0.0)

Reforge all 79340.4 DPS (+2312.7)

Optimize Gems 79110.5 DPS (-229.9)

Zadden - Stormscale - US is the character

Have upgraded two items - dagger 1/2 and DMF trinket 2/2 and entered accordingly.

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In your particular case, it looks like it's deciding the 120 exp bonus in your belt isn't worth getting because your marginal expertise EP is 0 (you're just barely over cap). If you change a reforge to drop you below expertise cap, optimize gems decides that you're currently using optimal gems.

e: I think the high amount of hit is just because you happen to have an extremely high-hit set of gear as it is. It's reforging out of hit nearly as much as it can.

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Before I Hit Reforge and Optimize Gems 77027.7 DPS (+0.0)

Reforge all 79340.4 DPS (+2312.7)

Optimize Gems 79110.5 DPS (-229.9)

Zadden - Stormscale - US is the character

Have upgraded two items - dagger 1/2 and DMF trinket 2/2 and entered accordingly.

The main problem is the Tomb Raiders Girdle. First the blue socket which gives the opportunity to socket 160 Hit and the socketbonus which gives 120 Expertise. In this case the optimize Gems routine often gives the wrong answer. For this case you need to manuelly gem and reforge. look at the dps, try out optimize gems and reforge and look which gives the best result. For some gear setups it's better to match the blue socket and take the socketbonus, for others it's better to gem all with 320 Haste. It's always a co-operation of Gemming and Reforging but both systems are working independent.

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How accurate are race models currently SC? Is the berserking change from mid-firelands in? It was changed to haste instead of attack speed as far as I remember or is pandaren really that much stronger?

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Hello, and thanks a lot for your work on SC !

I've a little problem about the rotation settings :

Even with a 1 Min CP/Envenom > 35%, nothing has changed in the dps calculator.

This is the same problem for all others choices of cp's number, and for the options like prioritize rupture.

All web browsers tested.

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First of a fantastic tool to support my rogue and I been using it from the beginning. I got a problem interpreting the results in regards of what gems to use.

The background is that before Shadowcraft returned I decided to test a build using haste gems to see if it helped in my energy starvation.

The behaviour is the same regardless of the order of “Auto-reforge†and “Optimize gems†(the numbers can differ slightly)

Hitting “Optimize gemsâ€:

First time -298EP -452,5 DPS

Second time -84EP -172,7 DPS

Third time 183EP +172,7 DPS

This jump up and down then continue, I interpret it as I’m at a “break point†so that is not my concern. Why the first big drop in DPS and why can’t I get back to the DPS I got at the start?

Another matter is the -84EP = -127,7DPS and +183EP= +172,7DPS is this only something in the presentation of the result? I knew EP fluctuate with gear but ~100EP from regeming?

My rogue is Rota @ The Sha’tar EU-server

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Is there any math on the Undead racial yet? I have scoured the forums but haven't seen any solid 470+ilvl math on it.

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. . . Even with a 1 Min CP/Envenom > 35%, nothing has changed in the dps calculator.

This is the same problem for all others choices of cp's number, and for the options like prioritize rupture.

All web browsers tested.

Have what may be the same problem using IE9, ie, some changes (including the initial load of my character) do not trigger a recalc. Found I could trigger a recalc almost 100% by making a meaningless spec change, ie, Shadowstep to something else, next time back to Shadowstep again. Google Chrome does not exhibit this problem for me.

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To reiterate, if you have Anticipation chosen, the min CP settings and prioritize rupture settings don't do anything. The backend calcs were done like this to simplify everything and quicken the code, and it's working as intended right now.

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Is the proc behavior or Arrowflight/Woundripper Medallion correct? Considering it has the same ilvl, amount of agi, and the same type of proc as (normal) Terror in the Mists it surprises me that it would be Windswept Pages and Searing Words for combat in my current gear. Granted trinket does proc less agi, but is it not balanced by more PPM?

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In response to your questions:

a) Yes, but be aware that EP values do fluctuate with gear, in one instance you may find Expertise just behind Mastery, in another instance you may find it below Haste. The best way for you to keep track is by using Shadowcraft, having a quick look at your profile puts Expertise in your current gear set at 0.98, which is lower than Haste.

b) In certain conditions yes, my advice would be to follow Shadowcraft as stated above.

Thank you for your response. I can see what you're saying but I have my serious doubts with Shadowcraft, by all means It is a good program and no disrespect to the owner. But the following showcases my concerns:

Using the reforge tool it says for me to change one thing:

1) hit -> mastery now goes crit -> mastery

Now bearing in mind my hit is at 7.61 already I can't see the logic in this, hit is horrific past 7.5%, noted by the very low EP values after the cap

2) When I tried to "optimize gems" it returned some half-assed attemp that lowered my DPS, it even admitted that! A simple IF statement would have been useful there.

So my question is do I actually trust that tool?

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A tool is a tool. It is only as useful as its user makes it.

If you are depending on shadowcraft to do everything for you, then maybe you have other problems to sort out. However if you want a tool to give you fairly accurate EP weights, and to test out different reforgings / gemmings without wasting gold in game....then it'll get the job done.

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A tool is a tool. It is only as useful as its user makes it.

If you are depending on shadowcraft to do everything for you, then maybe you have other problems to sort out. However if you want a tool to give you fairly accurate EP weights, and to test out different reforgings / gemmings without wasting gold in game....then it'll get the job done.

Maybe I should rephrase my question, I'm not saying I use the tool at all; I don't.

Another member has suggested I use it and I'm just pointing out that there are some serious bugs in it and whether I should trust it.

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@theherecy:

Envenom uptime is great and all, but you don't want to throw dodged envenoms all day. As has been pointed out exp capping prevents specials from getting dodged and reduces the amount of melee hits that are dodges. The more melee hits that connect the more chances to proc poisons, which is the whole point of having envenom buff up.

Also, if you inherently don't trust shadowcraft then do not use it, but the two points you bring up sound more like user errors or misunderstanding of how EP values work.

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@theherecy:

Envenom uptime is great and all, but you don't want to throw dodged envenoms all day. As has been pointed out exp capping prevents specials from getting dodged and reduces the amount of melee hits that are dodges. The more melee hits that connect the more chances to proc poisons, which is the whole point of having envenom buff up.

Also, if you inherently don't trust shadowcraft then do not use it, but the two points you bring up sound more like user errors or misunderstanding of how EP values work.

I fully understand the first point, my question was whether the free envenom buff was worth the loss in other areas. This has been answered.

I don't trust shadowcraft after some of those experiences, but as other users have pointed out the EP values should be sound. I'm sorry if i'm just a complete noob at this but I honestly don't believe that taking 170 hit at 0.64 is better than 170 crit at 0.99...

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The regemming button just replaces gems with the highest gems based on current EP value, and doesn't take slot bonuses into account currently. So it's going to be wrong about 100% of the time.

The reforging I have found to generally be pretty accurate. You might have to play a little bit with haste/crit, but I've never seen it suggest going over the yellow hit cap with reforges. If you're getting such a suggestion that's probably a bug and I am sure the app designers would like to hear about it.

Also...This shadowcraft discussion is starting to get really off topic. Maybe a mod could move this discussion where it goes?

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The thing to keep in mind with ShadowCraft is that its really not a single monolithic tool. There's at least 3 distinct components, written by different people, involved. Notable in this case is that the logic that computes DPS and EP values is entirely distinct from the reforger/gem optimizer. The reforger is a separate piece of logic that takes the EP values provided by that module and attempts to find the best possible reforge. So while the reforger has been known to make some slightly strange decisions, that doesn't mean the EP values and DPS estimate are in any way in doubt; a problem with the reforger and a problem with the DPS calculator are two very different things.

I will also note that this isn't intended as a knock on the reforger; reforging is actually a very hard problem, and to guarantee the globally optimum reforge would be ridiculously computationally intensive. As such, by necessity it uses heuristics and simplifying assumptions to find a "pretty good" reforge in a reasonable amount of time. However, this also necessarily means that sometimes it will miss things, so there will be situations where you can manually fiddle the EP values to increase the DPS estimate.

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