Like Water - The Brewmaster's Resource [5.4]

585 posts in this topic

Were having a mis-communication, I wasn't saying that 2h was better or worse JUST because of haste, what I was saying is that my original equation was off because I hadn't realized that the 40% was playing into haste, I thought it would be 21% from haste and 40% from monk = 61% not 121% speed 40% increase. I thought it was additive, not multiplicative (I hope that's right) but as far as math, it's as if you are getting a 40% increase to haste (it's the same either way, i just put it at different portions of the equation) but it does make haste more valuable than at least I had orginally thought, because while that rating number isn't actually changing, if using a 2h it effectively means that you only need 303 haste rating for 1% increase in speed. The damage is balanced out because of the 40% increase in damage for dual wield, but is the EB generation? Spread sheet time!

http://1drv.ms/1llQoIy

So check that out and tell me what you think. I use 1.5 EB per crit for 1h's because 50% 1 and 50% 2 so that averages out to 1.5, the number of it's section is multiplied by .81 to account for 19% miss (if you capped exactly, so, could be slightly less, could be slightly more, but even without the 19%, it was still slightly under Polearm, even pisshands says in his guide that 1h's generate a smoother rate of income of EB but Polearm will produce the most. All the calculations in that are assuming a 7 minute fight ( so 420 seconds) and that you are expertise to 15% and hit to 7.5%. Also the 1h speed is combining both weapons ( meaning i took the speed and halved it so that you could see how often you would get a hit on average, mine is about 1.03 secs per hit.) you can just plug in your stats to check it out, but at my current ratings, i generate more with a 2h Polearm, I'm not sure how much it changes based on lowering haste. Cheers!

Edited by Carrot

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Were having a mis-communication, I wasn't saying that 2h was better or worse JUST because of haste, what I was saying is that my original equation was off because I hadn't realized that the 40% was playing into haste, I thought it would be 21% from haste and 40% from monk = 61% not 121% speed 40% increase. I thought it was additive, not multiplicative (I hope that's right) but as far as math, it's as if you are getting a 40% increase to haste (it's the same either way, i just put it at different portions of the equation) but it does make haste more valuable than at least I had orginally thought, because while that rating number isn't actually changing, if using a 2h it effectively means that you only need 303 haste rating for 1% increase in speed. The damage is balanced out because of the 40% increase in damage for dual wield, but is the EB generation? Spread sheet time!

http://1drv.ms/1llQoIy

So check that out and tell me what you think. I use 1.5 EB per crit for 1h's because 50% 1 and 50% 2 so that averages out to 1.5, the number of it's section is multiplied by .81 to account for 19% miss (if you capped exactly, so, could be slightly less, could be slightly more, but even without the 19%, it was still slightly under Polearm, even pisshands says in his guide that 1h's generate a smoother rate of income of EB but Polearm will produce the most. All the calculations in that are assuming a 7 minute fight ( so 420 seconds) and that you are expertise to 15% and hit to 7.5%. Also the 1h speed is combining both weapons ( meaning i took the speed and halved it so that you could see how often you would get a hit on average, mine is about 1.03 secs per hit.) you can just plug in your stats to check it out, but at my current ratings, i generate more with a 2h Polearm, I'm not sure how much it changes based on lowering haste. Cheers!

OK...to get one thing clarified once and for all: Haste does NOT widen the gap between 1h and 2h. It will always (not always as above 1h critcap 2h will outperform 1h) remain at 1%.

Example

2x1h at 2.6 speed vs. 2h at 3.6 speed

Basis = 50% crit, exp-capped + hit-capped

At 0 hasterating

1h:

0.5 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1) = 0.634615 EB stacks per second

2h

0.5 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1) = 0.641667 EB stacks per second

0.641667 / 0.634615 = 1.01111 -> 1.111% more stacks for 2h

At 10k hasterating

1h:

0.5 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 0.783937 EB stacks per second

2h

0.5 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 0.792647 EB stacks per second

0.792647 / 0.783937 = 1.01111 -> 1.111% more stacks for 2h

Now we are going above critcap to...70%

At 0 hasterating

1h:

0.57 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1) = 0.723462 EB stacks per second

2h

0.70 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1) = 0.898333 EB stacks per second

0.898333 / 0.723462 = 1.241714 -> 24.1714% more stacks for 2h

At 10k hasterating

1h:

0.57 x 1.5 x 2 / (2.6 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 0.893688 EB stacks per second

2h

0.7 x 3.0 x 1 / (3.6 / 1.4 / 1.1 / (1+10000/42500)) = 1.109706 EB stacks per second

1.109706 / 0.893688 = 1.241715 -> 24.1715% more stacks for 2h

As you can see the only thing that changes the difference between 1h and 2h is if you are going over the critcap. Haste just scales linearly.

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@Taser: Yea it is, good call, so haste is just as good for EB generation as 1h's. Thanks for coming up with that, I wasn't looking at the percentage more of eb's obtained between 2h's and 1h's. But, using a 2h, part of what gives them 24.1715% more stacks is the 40% increase in speed. But haste rating does not affect this percentage at all. Thanks Taser, and nevermite, hope that you see that 2h is the better choice for EB generation!

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The disparity between 1h and 2h EB gain has nothing to do with Way of the Monk. The rates of EB charges per crit (1.5 for 1h, 2.75 for Staff, 3.0 for Polearm) account for the difference in attack speeds using 1h's vs. Staffs and Polearms with Way of the Monk.

The difference is entirely a result of the white Critical Strike cap at 57% on-boss for dual-wielding and 76% on-boss for 2h. 2h has been established as defensively superior since before Crit capping was attainable. The difference is modest and occurs at the highest levels of gear, where it has the least impact.

Edited by Pisshands

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Well, lots of factors, including way of the monk, have to do with the disparity, which is 24% at lower levels, and higher if your crit levels are above 57%. Way of the monk was an attempt to balance the damage of the 2 so that one did not clearly beat the other (even though 1h's come out on top) But as for EB generation, Polearms take the lead by a good amount, and something has to account for this. If blizzard was trying to make them exactly even, removing way of the monk would favor 1h's then for EB generation. I think the big thing that is not being accounted for is 1h's chance to miss white damage (19% if exactly hit capped at 7.5%) If that wasn't there, Polearms and 1h's would be almost identical ( polearms would still win, but by a negligible amount). If i have 20% crit the disparity will be 24% more EB for Polearms, and if i have 55% crit that disparity is the same in ratio, 24%. 24% more uptime on EB is pretty significant, realistically making crit 24% more effective for polearms ( that being that i need about 20% less crit to get the same EB generation with a polearm as i do with 1h's) to all those out there rocking that 16000 crit (which again I will state is way to much, mastery ftw) and using 1h's ( gross) if you switch to a pole arm it would be equivelant (in EB generation) to adding 4000 crit rating on to yourself. Who wouldn't want that? Viva la mastery, and viva la Polearms!

Well...you are wrong. You already got several different explanations on how Way of the Monk and EB work. One last attempt.

All weapons are balanced. No matter if 1h, Polearm, Staff or whatever. And Way of the Monk is the reason why everything is balanced.

You can leave the critchance completely out of the equation. Just have a look at weaponspeed and stacks generated:

1h = 2.6 speed for 1.5 stacks...times 2 as you have 2x1h = 3 stacks on 2.6 speed

Staff = 3.3 speed / 1.4 = 2.36 speed for 2.75 stacks (2h not always get 3 stacks. You have to calculate 3 / 3.6 x baseweaponspeed)

Polearm = 3.6 speed / 1.4 = 2.57 speed for 3 stacks

3 / 2.6 = 1.154

2.75 / 2.36 = 1.165

3 / 2.57 = 1.167

1h's increased chance to miss only becomes a factor when reaching the critcap (60% raidbuffed on character sheet). Even at this point you get enough stacks of EB that it does not even matter.

EDIT: Mixed up weaponspeed of staff and polearm. But that doesn't change the math at all. Thanks @ Pisshands and Nevernite for the discrete hints.

Edited by Taser

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Checked back here for the first time in a while and it's not so dead anymore! Hurray!

Anyone care to discuss anything from what they've seen of the monk changes in WoD?

Obviously it's beta alpha and all but here's my initial thoughts:

I feel that haste is going to be a low priority stat for monks on most fights, with crit being roughly equal to mastery and haste much further behind.

Chi Explosion looks very dumb.

Soul Dance lackluster.

Serenity looks ridiculously amazing compared to the other two.

the guard change (guard has 2 charges) looks neat.

Hopefully we see some changes to Zen Sphere, Chi Torpedo and Healing Elixirs; the talents that brewmasters barely ever take.

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I get it. (and no they aren't equal) 2h's are better than 1h's for EB generation. End of story. I dont know why, I was just saying that it plays a factor cause it does, and whatever, were not thinking of things the same way. Let's move away from way of the monk, because I'm going to stop bringing it up, I get what you mean, you dont get what i'm saying, our numbers are still the same. Tell me, in my math, where i am wrong then.

Random Stats:

0 haste

10,000 crit

22,000 agi

Crit = 39.13

Hit 7.5%/Exp 15%/

POLE ARM

Speed

(3.6/(1.4+((haste/(425/1.4))/100))) = 2.57 speed ( hey you got this one right!)

Number of hits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

420/2.57= 163 hits

Number of crits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

163*(39.13/100) =63.9

EB Stacks Generated in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

63.9*3 = 191.7

EB Per Second for a pole arm

191.7/420 = .4565 stacks per second

1h's

Speed

(0.5*(2.6/(1+((haste/425)/100)))) = 1.3 (half of 2.6 because no haste but there's 2 of them)

Number of hits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

(420/1.3)*.81= 261.69  (.81 because of the 19% miss)

Number of crits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

261.69*(39.13/100) =102.4

EB Stacks Generated in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

102.4*1.5 = 153.61

EB Per Second for a 1h's

153.61/420 = .36574 stacks per second

24.8285322% different. And that difference, in ratio, never changes, no mater how much you change the crit or haste. It's also the same for a polearm or a staff. There are 2 big differences between 1h's and 2h's in this case, Way of the Monk for 40% increased speed for 2h's, and the 19% miss chance for 1h's. So, in conclusion, both of those things are playing a part in why 2h's generate more EB.

Edited by Carrot

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Your math is wrong. Attacks are single-roll, and as has been painstakingly demonstrated, 1h and 2h are different by ~1%.

Edited by Pisshands

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I get it. (and no they aren't equal) 2h's are better than 1h's for EB generation. End of story. I dont know why, I was just saying that it plays a factor cause it does, and whatever, were not thinking of things the same way. Let's move away from way of the monk, because I'm going to stop bringing it up, I get what you mean, you dont get what i'm saying, our numbers are still the same. Tell me, in my math, where i am wrong then.

Random Stats:

0 haste

10,000 crit

22,000 agi

Crit = 39.13

Hit 7.5%/Exp 15%/

POLE ARM

Speed

(3.6/(1.4+((haste/(425/1.4))/100))) = 2.57 speed ( hey you got this one right!)

Number of hits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

420/2.57= 163 hits

Number of crits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

163*(39.13/100) =63.9

EB Stacks Generated in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

63.9*3 = 191.7

EB Per Second for a pole arm

191.7/420 = .4565 stacks per second

1h's

Speed

(0.5*(2.6/(1+((haste/425)/100)))) = 1.3 (half of 2.6 because no haste but there's 2 of them)

Number of hits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

(420/1.3)*.81= 261.69  (.81 because of the 19% miss)

Number of crits in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

261.69*(39.13/100) =102.4

EB Stacks Generated in a 7 minute period (420 seconds)

102.4*1.5 = 153.61

EB Per Second for a 1h's

153.61/420 = .36574 stacks per second

24.8285322% different. And that difference, in ratio, never changes, no mater how much you change the crit or haste. It's also the same for a polearm or a staff. There are 2 big differences between 1h's and 2h's in this case, Way of the Monk for 40% increased speed for 2h's, and the 19% miss chance for 1h's. So, in conclusion, both of those things are playing a part in why 2h's generate more EB.

Pisshands already posted where you are doing it wrong. Nevertheless I underlined the wrong part in above quote.

Honestly...if you really want to do some calculations or even start serious theorycrafting, you should start with the basics. Search for combat tables and how whitehits, yellowhits and block (+critical blocks) are being handled. Additionally I would propose that you visit totemspot.com and have a look at some of Binkenstein's blogposts. It is a shaman community, but Bink really shares a lot of his theorycrafting knowledge which is applicable to all classes.

I am really glad for everyone who wants to start theorycrafting. But it is not just about some calculations. You really have to have a decent knowledge of game mechanics and how things need to be set up.

And you should keep one thing in your mind: When posting calculations and/or conclusions in a public forum, players reading those posts will blindly follow these posts when gearing/reforging their chars, because all that shiny math cannot be wrong.

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New Stat: Versatility

The removal of Readiness left some space in our itemization plans and room for another stat to take its place. It’s important to offer players plenty of different secondary stats so that you have a wide variety of interesting and compelling gear to choose from. To that end, we’ve been working on a new secondary stat called Versatility. Versatility is pretty simple: 1% Versatility grants a 1% increase to your damage, healing, and absorbs, and reduces the damage you take by 0.5%. It’s a straightforward, obvious upgrade to your primary role’s performance, but also gives significant boosts to secondary role performance and survivability. The healing increase it provides does work on self-heals, such as Recuperate, for example. We won’t be tuning it to be anyone’s highest throughput secondary stat, but it’ll be close, and it’ll give you a nice boost to how versatile your character is in the process. It’ll be especially attractive to hybrids who want to feel more “hybridy.”