tastysnack

[WW] 5.4 -Siege of the Fist

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The reason haste/mastery gems are overtaking agility next patch is the insanely strong interaction between the two. Once you get to that previously mentioned 8-9k mark eein was working on finding for haste, mastery becomes beyond king as a stat due to the increased availability of TEB stacks from the haste. As I said, its not just haste...mastery is also worth over half of agility, haste is simply slightly better than it until that comfortable level where you have a sustainable TEB stack. I've tested with the current t14h gear...I'll work on a +8 upgrade for some next tier comparison soon.

A bit limited right now as my desktop isn't fully assembled so I'm half ass working from my laptop.

-edit- just a side note, this is all in reference to DW, I've done nothing with 2h yet.

-edit- side side note...this is all probably going to be worthless when they inevitably nerf at least some aspect of windwalker to compensate for how hilarious is it on ptr right now...but.

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Further testing for 2h shows that mastery > haste (more than likely up to the same point as dw or close to it, haven't tested to confirm as its not achievable in t14h gear) > crit. Mastery is better than haste at all levels. Also, the gap has been drastically closed for 2h/dw.

DW Best thus far - 160109.0

2H best thus far - 155100.8

-edit- I'd also like to note that this applies to live as well. 2h is about 5k behind on live with bis now, the gap we saw before was more than likely caused by the TEB issue.

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5K is still going to be a noticable number in the longterm. The math I'm doing is showing ~1-3% difference - which seems negligible, but really isn't, although it's certainly better than the 3-5% differences I've noticed in the past. In a 6 minute fight, that's still a difference of around 1, 802, 952 (please correct my math if I'm incorrect) - which for some raids, can be a pretty major difference, though I agree that it's nice to see the distance between the two closing.

Also, with 7-8K haste, that translates into 1.9 - 2 more energy/s (not counting the bonus from Ascension, and considering 3577.173 Haste Rating translates into 1 e/s), if my maths are correct (again, correct me if I messed something up! I may be good at math, but my algebra skills leave something to be desired). I think that circles around back to "When does Power Strikes pull ahead of Ascension in damage" - having 11-12 e/s without Ascension would even them out for DW, wouldn't it? Considering loss of energy from FoF and EB into the equation, wouldn't DW even begin to lose damage?

But, with mastery overtaking haste, that would mean that 2H would still see Ascension as the best talent from that tier.

On that note, now that we're finding priorities, I'm going to begin drafting an update to the main post. I'll throw it up on Google Docs later this evening with annotations on TC vs. what's on live, just to track changes and be able to edit as PTR patches/changes are released.

And, Gahddo, thanks a ton for all of your work!

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Don't talk to me about SEF, i'm dreading the implementation! :P Makes me wanna cry thinking about it. Hopefully they have it up by this coming week. Also, there's some thought that chi wave might be added to our priority after the buff so I finished implementing a 'good enough' version of that today.

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Don't talk to me about SEF, i'm dreading the implementation! :P Makes me wanna cry thinking about it. Hopefully they have it up by this coming week. Also, there's some thought that chi wave might be added to our priority after the buff so I finished implementing a 'good enough' version of that today.

Take your time.

Meanwhile, I began the draft for 5.2's monk guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/13Uo_A9K2vCR8ClbYDuK95-a8fwjmfysKjRNsV3gSVoc/edit

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Forgot to mention chi wave, thanks for reminding me eein. Its by far the best single target of the three abilities, and in my opinion the hands down choice for WW unless you're dealing with an aoe fight. Chi burst clearly wins in cases of multiple targets, however chi wave, with perfect usage of bounces, is a 5k dps increase. Now, chances are you won't get a perfect number of bounces onto the boss in a raiding situation, so I don't think its worth adding into the set rotation. It is, however, very good raid healing with an added bonus of no cost and a chance at damage, so keep this in mind.

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In Basic Mechanics - Passive Effects - Brewing section, you write that with zero mastery a full 10-stack of TEB gives a flat 10% damage increase, which is not quite true. With zero mastery rating, we still have 1.6% increase from base mastery, which brings the 10-stack effect to 26% baseline.

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I've played around with the latest (510-9) Simc build to compare live results to provisional PTR ones, and noticed something strange. Using the exact same profiles and action lists, the PTR sim was showing 4%-5% lower numbers than current live. I've noticed that the tigereye_brew_use uptime was half of the 5.1 numbers, which doesn't really make any sense with halved chi requirements to gain stacks: I would expect higher uptime, not lower.

Am I missing something here?

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I've played around with the latest (510-9) Simc build to compare live results to provisional PTR ones, and noticed something strange. Using the exact same profiles and action lists, the PTR sim was showing 4%-5% lower numbers than current live. I've noticed that the tigereye_brew_use uptime was half of the 5.1 numbers, which doesn't really make any sense with halved chi requirements to gain stacks: I would expect higher uptime, not lower.

Am I missing something here?

Yes: The line actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react=10

( Which activated if you can react to exactly 10 stacks, which was ok in 5.1 )

needs to be changed to something like

actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react>=10 or whatever you think is best.

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Yes: The line actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react=10

( Which activated if you can react to exactly 10 stacks, which was ok in 5.1 )

needs to be changed to something like

actions+=/tigereye_brew,if=!buff.tigereye_brew_use.up&buff.tigereye_brew.react>=10 or whatever you think is best.

pewpew - Pastebin.com current best action list we have. Changes:

- FoF is a dps loss for dw and negligible for 2h

- Chi wave

- The abundance of TEB stacks means keeping a 100% (94-96% realistic) uptime is the best way to go

As for stats, right now we're showing (without fof) mastery > haste > crit for both 2h and dw, both of which are worth over half haste (gemming ftw). DW is still 5k ahead of 2h sadly.

-edit- Once, or if, they add SEF, I'd like to also refine the "aoe" rotation...because no one has really ever tested it in depths.

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- The abundance of TEB stacks means keeping a 100% (94-96% realistic) uptime is the best way to go
A few quick runs I did show this as well. Patchwerk fight dps seems to peak when using TEB at 4-6 stacks. Using it at lower stacks increases the uptime slightly, but not the dps.

One thing that occurred to me yesterday was that the new tigereye implementation will require us to track any mastery bonuses we get from gear procs or fight mechanics. Right now, if we were to use a trinket with a mastery proc or Windsong on weapons, when we get the mastery buff it sort of passively benefits us. In 5.2, a mastery buff will do absolutely nothing if we don't hit TEB when it's up. This is probably worth mentioning in the guide.

EDIT: I'm also not seeing FoF as a dps loss for dw, but I'm still using my 5.1 stat priority (haste=crit and minimal mastery) and using TEB at 5 stacks instead of pushing for max uptime. Will have to play around with it a bit more I guess.

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One thing that occurred to me yesterday was that the new tigereye implementation will require us to track any mastery bonuses we get from gear procs or fight mechanics. Right now, if we were to use a trinket with a mastery proc or Windsong on weapons, when we get the mastery buff it sort of passively benefits us. In 5.2, a mastery buff will do absolutely nothing if we don't hit TEB when it's up. This is probably worth mentioning in the guide.

EDIT: I'm also not seeing FoF as a dps loss for dw, but I'm still using my 5.1 stat priority (haste=crit and minimal mastery) and using TEB at 5 stacks instead of pushing for max uptime. Will have to play around with it a bit more I guess.

Agreed. Once I am a little bit less sleep deprived (oh, Monday...), I'll see about adding in some emphasis on tracking mastery procs. I'll add some notes about FoF as well - it's a much debated topic even now - but it sounds like it'll be less damage and more utility (though, given that short stuns rarely work on bosses or their trash, I can't even see it as utility unless Blizz decides to somehow increase its damage). I don't want to commit to anything about FoF this early on (as I have the feeling that may change since Blue seems to want the spell to be in our rotation since beta), but I think adding notes about it is fine at this point.

I'd assume that tracking mastery on weapons would not be advised, as most are going to be using Dancing Steel (I assume), unless Windsong is now our strongest enchantment?

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Sorry i have been away from this thread for quite a while, did i read this correctly.

we are to go back to Haste > crit or even Haste=crit for DW and not use FoF?

Also Ghaddo, any chance you could link the dps difference from different races please, so unsure what's top at the moment. Would you able to include Panda @ 275 food as well if possible.

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Sorry i have been away from this thread for quite a while, did i read this correctly.

we are to go back to Haste > crit or even Haste=crit for DW and not use FoF?

Also Ghaddo, any chance you could link the dps difference from different races please, so unsure what's top at the moment. Would you able to include Panda @ 275 food as well if possible.

If you look at the guide draft (which I still need to add to the main page), and click on Stat Prioritization, I'm trying to keep track of where our priorities appear to be in 5.2. Right now for DW, it's Haste > Mastery > Haste > Crit, but keep in mind that that's bound to change.

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If you look at the guide draft (which I still need to add to the main page), and click on Stat Prioritization, I'm trying to keep track of where our priorities appear to be in 5.2. Right now for DW, it's Haste > Mastery > Haste > Crit, but keep in mind that that's bound to change.

I was more on about in 5.1 still. I was checking around other top monks and seems they are not Crit > Haste any more.

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I was more on about in 5.1 still. I was checking around other top monks and seems they are not Crit > Haste any more.

Who are you looking at specifically? Many of the ones I know are Crit >= Haste, or Crit > Haste. The ones I've seen that are Crit >= Haste or Crit > Haste are also sitting in BrM spec (which values haste more than WW).

The only other thing I can think of is that it is mathematically true that 1 haste (rating) > 1 crit (rating) due to 425 haste (rating) = 1% haste while 600 crit (rating) = 1% crit, causing it to appear that haste > crit (if that makes sense - I'm pretty sleep deprived right now)

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I'm seeing Mastery > Haste regardless of DW/2H in my spreadsheet for 5.2. Why is there a soft haste cap for DW around 8k haste?

@Litt It would probably depend on your energy needs for certain fights. If you weren't using FOF (Heroic Protectors for example) you would need more energy and therefore need more haste. Those top monks are also probably sitting on a lot less mastery than a typical monk, so their needs for haste are higher. I know I will probably be picking up some haste pretty soon with a couple more upgrades.

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I was mainly looking at Justmonk. But i would presume then since hes got flat out Haste > Crit that its for his brew master spec. i probably just over thought it after reading the last few pages of this thread. never mind

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Calli, I believe that Siimcraft is using FoF on multitargets simply due to the fact that each "tick" on each target has a separate chance to crit, this would be a slight gain I would think given how much damage it does in addition to the stun.

I think I am missing something here, but how does that increase it's dps on multiple targets? If you have 40% crit chance and you use FoF on 10 targets, then every tick will crit 4 of them, and normal hit 6, right? Isn't this the same as with every other ability, you crit 4 out of 10 times?

As I said, I'm probably overlooking something here :)

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For those worried about 5.1 values, keep in mind there was a couple bugs that got fixed that may have skewed values. Everything should be fixed and giving the correct scaling now. I'm going over the module someday soon to determine everything is sound and nothing looks funky. (checking PTR logs to simc for accurate ability damage etc)

Salty: The soft cap (for 5.2) for DW was before we removed FOF from the mix.

We'll mention things from time to time about 5.2 over realid or here in the forums, but keep in mind this can change every day as the profiles and module are updated.

When we are talking about stat weights for 5.2, it's generally in BiS or BiS +8ilvl. Or at least at that gear level so we really haven't ironed out if there is a specific amount of haste we need before stacking mastery in a no-FoF scenario.

But you're on your mark (for 5.1) with the less mastery, the more haste is beneficial.

I think I am missing something here, but how does that increase it's dps on multiple targets? If you have 40% crit chance and you use FoF on 10 targets, then every tick will crit 4 of them, and normal hit 6, right? Isn't this the same as with every other ability, you crit 4 out of 10 times?

As I said, I'm probably overlooking something here :)

Yea, over the course of the fight, in a high iteration standard deviation, you'd probably still run about 40% being crits.

We dont really run multitarget sims as Windwalker yet. If you are, be careful and ask questions if something looks funny because I haven't really done a lot of work implementing aoe.

---------

One day, i'll play windwalker.

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Salty: The soft cap (for 5.2) for DW was before we removed FOF from the mix.

But you're on your mark (for 5.1) with the less mastery, the more haste is beneficial.

OK. High values of haste caused me to think FoF would eventually fall off as it is. I think I'm going to need to add a To-Do section into the draft to keep track of things like this (as it stands, it's only half of the guide anyway - I started working on it at 2 AM and apparently fell asleep partway through stat prioritization).

Yea, over the course of the fight, in a high iteration standard deviation, you'd probably still run about 40% being crits.

We dont really run multitarget sims as Windwalker yet. If you are, be careful and ask questions if something looks funny because I haven't really done a lot of work implementing aoe.

---------

One day, i'll play windwalker.

Good to know.

Edit: I'll try to bother you over RID more, as more information is discovered. That way, I can update drafts as needed. Thanks for your work.

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Edit: I'll try to bother you over RID more, as more information is discovered. That way, I can update drafts as needed. Thanks for your work.

Feel free to send me Cat Facts in exchange for WW info.

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I've another thing.

What about T14 bonuses? 4P - with Ascension and a higher value of haste, it seems like this would fall off the chart as an increase - it seems like gearing for it would be a waste vs. 2nd stats. Same with the 2Set - since FoF appears to be falling off of our rotation, it appears that gearing for haste/mastery would be preferable. I can also see breaking the set bonus early on, too, in favor of T15 gear and simply ignoring them.

Seems strange and uncouth to me :) But then again, this is the first tier where I haven't placed much emphasis on gaining a set bonus.

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I've another thing.

What about T14 bonuses? 4P - with Ascension and a higher value of haste, it seems like this would fall off the chart as an increase - it seems like gearing for it would be a waste vs. 2nd stats. Same with the 2Set - since FoF appears to be falling off of our rotation, it appears that gearing for haste/mastery would be preferable. I can also see breaking the set bonus early on, too, in favor of T15 gear and simply ignoring them.

Seems strange and uncouth to me :) But then again, this is the first tier where I haven't placed much emphasis on gaining a set bonus.

This is actually a really good observation. I might spend some time today building a new bis that favors mastery if chardev is working.

EDIT: chardev is still broken. I think Mrrobot has some new features I might try out. :x

I'm trying to figure out some additional details, because i've been running weights that want a good amount of either stat when going full reforge and gearing of the opposite stat. Maybe I just dont have the most optimized profile from gahhda yet, but i'll mess around with it tonight after i'm home.

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I don't see why Fists of Fury is "falling out" of our rotation.

-It is our 2nd largest Damage Per Chi ability; it does more damage than 1.5 BOK and auto attack and tiger strike damage.

-You regenerate energy during the channel

-It scales positively with mastery, haste and crit.

With the mastery changes in 5.2 we will have more gaps in our rotation that can easily be filled with FoF.

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