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Wrathblood

[Prot] 5.3 - Same Man I was Before

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New work from Theck incorporating Sacred Shield into his sim which is really good for Haste (and he doesn't even include the interaction with SoI which is also good for Haste). Is Nothing Sacred? | Sacred Duty

Conveniently, it simplifies our gearing options:

Approved Gearing Strategies:

Standard Duty Tanking: Control/Haste (cap Hit and Exp, dump everything else into Haste, add Stam as needed)

AoE or Maximum survival Tanking: Pure Avoidance (don't bother with Hit and Exp, throw everything into Avoidance. If you have to add another stat, go with Mastery or Hit)

Heroic Sha Tanking (life threatening hit every 8-10 seconds): Pure Mastery

That's it. Control/Mastery simply isn't competitive.

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I'd still consider using Control/Mastery for heroic sha, just on the off-chance that you manage to miss several CS/J in a row and can't make the 3-HP in 8-seconds benchmark. I know a lot of tanks did drop hit/exp for that fight, but when you're pushing 60% mitigation on SotR another 5-6% probably isn't worth it unless it's absolutely required meet the mitigation check (assuming you can't eliminate the entire 7650 rating worth of hit/exp).

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Does any of the new information change the viability of your dodge/parry macro?

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I don't understand why the balance gearing strategy is balanced across all four stats, this is not a strategy that would be used in the real world.

A real world balancing strategy would be haste to 5618, then mastery, ignore parry and dodge.

This would provide the breakpoint for 9 tick sacred shields during bloodlust, 7 tick sacred shields outside of bloodlust.

I'd suggest a more realistic execution would be haste 5618, mastery 7882, parry 1500, dodge 1500.

Using the haste breakpoints on the sacred shield table and the stat weights in the simulations on the blog this should give the same results for sacred shield absorption as C/Ha, whilst also reducing the mean damage taken as per standard understanding of mastery.

Unless I have missed the memo and sacred shield now works differently.

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Breakpoints on Sacred Shield are meaningless for Prot, as there is time to keep it up, and the shield then rolls, each point of haste is worth the same as the previous one.

Further the balanced gearing strategy is a representation of "wear what drops", more than a conscious choice - if I should point to one gearing strategy that hasn't been dataed out, it would be hit/exp to cap, then equal haste/mastery (or as good as equal), due to the synergy between better ShoR and more ShoR.

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Hmm I was under the impression that whilst the buff rolls haste still only affects the number of shields you would receive during the time period as it still uses the old HOT refresh system?

I expect almost all tanks to have a weakaura/poweraura set up for the sacred shield buff with an alert when it is <5s remaining thereby ensuring as close to 100% uptime as possible. Consider a 300s fight, with 0 haste you would receive 6 shields every 30s, let's say each absorbs 50K, for a total absorb of 3,000K. with 5335 (next breakpoint without bloodlust) to 12687 haste you would receive 7 shields every 30s for a total absorb of 3,500K, 12688 to 20052 would equate to 4,000K and so on for each extra tick per 30s you were able to achieve.

I suspect I've misunderstood a mechanic.

I see regarding C/Bal, makes more sense.

edit: Performed some research on WOL for a few of the paladins in this thread:

Uptime 626.75, 139 shields, 6.65 shields / 30s, haste 5700

Uptime 575.6, 129 shields, 6.72 shields / 30s, haste unknown as user logged in ret gear, est. 6150 (user was Theck I'm sure he could clarify)

Uptime 625.6, 148 shields, 7.10 shields / 30s, haste 8500

Uptime 452.2, 95 shields, 6.30 shields / 30s, haste 3345

So it looks like I've definitely misunderstood it. Refreshes under bloodlust not taken into account however. Nor can I check actual haste rating during fight.

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Does any of the new information change the viability of your dodge/parry macro?

It doesn't change the formula in the macro, but the macro has been mostly irrelevant since MoP dropped anyway. There's no point in trying to reforge to balance dodge and parry DR when you're better off reforging to haste or mastery anyway.

I don't understand why the balance gearing strategy is balanced across all four stats, this is not a strategy that would be used in the real world.

As Nooska said, this is more of a "making do with what drops" gear set. The concept being that many of us will make do with poorly-itemized pieces that are large ilvl upgrades (even 509 -> 522 is a pretty big stam/armor/stat upgrade, and many players are making 496->522 upgrades).

Hmm I was under the impression that whilst the buff rolls haste still only affects the number of shields you would receive during the time period as it still uses the old HOT refresh system?

So it looks like I've definitely misunderstood it. Refreshes under bloodlust not taken into account however. Nor can I check actual haste rating during fight.

Sacred Shield uses the standard DoT/HoT system for haste scaling. As your haste increases the time between ticks decreases, and at certain breakpoints you gain an additional tick to keep the total duration within +/- half a tick duration of the unhasted total duration (in this case, within +/- 3 seconds of 30s). The mathematical description for this is detailed in this blog post if you want more detail.

The reason breakpoints aren't very meaningful to us is that we're regularly refreshing Sacred Shield before it expires, often many ticks before it's about to expire (because SS in an empty GCD is still a net DPS gain compared to leaving the GCD empty and having to refresh again later, potentially pushing something else back). As a result, that haste breakpoint mostly just shifts our GCDs around a little bit. We may refresh it one GCD later, for example, compared to just before the breakpoint, but not all of the time. Overall it doesn't buy us that many more GCDs or that much DPS, so it's generally a small effect. It's much more linear scaling whenever you're maintaining 100% uptime.

This is slightly less true for other classes, depending on situation. For example, my understanding of affliction locks is that the breakpoints are sort of meaningless. You're refreshing very early with affliction, so it just shifts your Malefic Grasp casts around a little bit. But for resto druids, it matters a lot because they're casting HoTs on players and letting them expire, meaning they get a full extra tick on every single Rejuv they cast.

What you think about the 2er Bonus of our T15 set with block?

What you preffer me on Raid Bosses? Keep Block up, or more Shield Buff?

My thoughts on the 2-piece bonus are outlined in this blog post. In short, it's not something that's worth maintaining 100% uptime on. It's a nice consolation prize for when we need to WoG ourselves (i.e. when we can make full use of the WoG healing), and it could potentially be good for large predictable attacks that are blockable. For example, before a large, blockable spike you might SotR and use the remaining 1-2 HP on WoG to get the SotR mitigation and a 40% higher chance to block that attack/attacks; heroic Sha's Dread Thrash is a good example here.

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Hey guys, love what you all do here. Definitely helped me a lot when I started playing Prot Pally for MoP.

So here's a question: Do we care about our tier gear in 5.2? All of it has either dodge or parry on it, and the tier bonuses just don't seem very useful. The 4-piece is the only one that's slightly interesting, but even then, Divine Protection is not my go to major cooldown. Any thoughts?

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Has anyone gotten a chance to do testing on the tanking legendary meta gem: Indomitable Primal Diamond? My main questions are whether or not the buff can proc off of dodges and parries, and if it does not, how much would avoidance gearing vs. control/haste gearing affect uptimes? Does the meta gem therefore devalue avoidance gearing a substantial amount?

It would seem from just tooltip checking that the buff procs off hits/absorbs only, but I have been unable to test to verify this.

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Has anyone gotten a chance to do testing on the tanking legendary meta gem: Indomitable Primal Diamond? My main questions are whether or not the buff can proc off of dodges and parries, and if it does not, how much would avoidance gearing vs. control/haste gearing affect uptimes? Does the meta gem therefore devalue avoidance gearing a substantial amount?

It would seem from just tooltip checking that the buff procs off hits/absorbs only, but I have been unable to test to verify this.

Indomitable Primal Diamond – 1.40 RealPPM on damage/absorb taken from melee ability or swing. No ICD.

Source: Windsong and Elemental Force Information - Forums - World of Warcraft

It sounds like it cannot proc on Dodges, Parries, or Misses.

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Hey guys, love what you all do here. Definitely helped me a lot when I started playing Prot Pally for MoP.

So here's a question: Do we care about our tier gear in 5.2? All of it has either dodge or parry on it, and the tier bonuses just don't seem very useful. The 4-piece is the only one that's slightly interesting, but even then, Divine Protection is not my go to major cooldown. Any thoughts?

More than anything it comes down to whether you do 10s or 25s. For 25s, our 4 piece is likely pretty good but for 10s its less good. As for the value of individual stats, Theck has put out some very interesting stuff recently. I intend to rewrite the gearing section to reflect our evolving understanding of tanking stats but I've been letting it bounce around in my brain for a while to get my own thinking clear (as Richard Feynman said, if you can't explain a concept to a freshman seminar class, you don't understand it well enough yourself yet). I think I'm just about ready.

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It also appears that at some point in the near future we'll be seeing some Theckcrafting with regards to the 4-piece, so that'll be nice.

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Hello

Protection Paladin 5.2 Overview

At level 60, it can't be overstated how good Hand of Purity is on fights involving DoTs, and it is now broadly useful as well. Base your choice on which talent helps the most with the mechanics you expect to face.

Does Hand of Purity work against Megeara's Breaths?

I am not sure.

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Hey hey,

I've noticed a lot of paladin tanks (10-man at least) take the crit metagem instead of the one with stamina. Is the reasoning only for the increased damage or does it provide other benefits? (Procs SoI or something)

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They must've picked the wrong one, the stamina one is crazy strong

I do not think several tanks in high-end 10-man guilds pick the same meta gem incorrectly. Even if you happen to purchase the wrong one, changing it is cheap.

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I do not think several tanks in high-end 10-man guilds pick the same meta gem incorrectly. Even if you happen to purchase the wrong one, changing it is cheap.

Could you provide armory links to the players?

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Could you provide armory links to the players?

Fraggoji @ Lightning's Blade - Community - World of Warcraft

Nsjx @ Grim Batol - Community - World of Warcraft

Cayouz @ Azshara - Community - World of Warcraft

Nefây @ Eredar - Community - World of Warcraft

Fela @ Destromath - Community - World of Warcraft

These are the paladin tanks in the five highest ranked 10-man guilds at the moment.

They need damage more than survivability, not a mystery.

This seems to be the idea yeah, but the reason I asked the question was if it was only for the damage increase or if there's something else tied to it. I like understanding what I do, not just follow blindly and I had not seen a discussion about this already

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Branching out into a tanking offspec. Question about gemming - are dodge/parry socket bonuses worth meeting? Would hybrid gems to earn some bonus dodge or parry be better than just throwing Haste everywhere? How about if the socket bonus was Sta?

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Tanking and healing are not as clear-cut as DPS. It depends greatly on what sort of content you are facing and what your raidcomp needs. Dodge and parry aren't bad, just not as good as haste mastery. Stamina is the best for survival, but you can often sacrifice some survivability for a gain in DPS. I would meet stamina bonus socket requirements before dodge/parry, personally.

@Allana: you did notice their gemming and trinket choices, right? Choosing the crit metagem seems consistent with the rest of their gearing strategy: sacrificing some survivability for a significant gain in DPS.

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I would not go so far as stating that Stamina is best for survival, but rather it gives a linear increase in effective health.

What you do get for meeting gem requirements is additional stat points that, regardless of their value, still add mitigation/DPS (with the exception of Crit only adding DPS).

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Considering there are good stats for each socket color, gemming for socket bonuses shouldn't be a problem at all unless it's a red and the player can't reforge away enough expertise for the red socket to be worth much of anything. At that point it's either parry or strength for the red, so perhaps not as attractive as other stats but it's not like it's the end of the world if there's a parry or strength gem in your gear that activates a parry or dodge bonus. It's still doing something for you, and unless you're bleeding edge it should be fine. And if you're bleeding edge, you're probably gemming stamina up the wazoo just to make sure you can survive long enough through learning the encounter to feel comfortable.

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Far as I can tell, stamina seems way more popular in 25-man setting and pure haste the norm in 10-man. I play 10-man, which is why my question was regarding that. I do not think going straight stamina would benefit me at all - we can use our druid tank to be the "soaker". I quite enjoy being able to have up my SHoR up for all hard boss hits any way.

@Capstone - haste is not purely for a damage increase, far as I've seen it does wonders for your survivability.

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