Wrathblood

Prot [5.4] - EF You

70 posts in this topic

Hey, its been almost 72 hours since I brought it up last. I figured you'd enjoy a break from the harassment.

I like the concept of TMI, I just fear people won't embrace a stat that can produce results ranging from 10 to 8.7x10^12.

Edit - Just saw 540-4 is up. Thanks for all of your work on it!

Updated T16H25 boss damage? I'm curious how it looks.

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Yeah, T16H bosses were updated a bit. They should be a decent bit more challenging now. Unfortunately I didn't finish tweaking their DoT damage in time - I made some more changes to that today, but those won't go in until 540-5 as a result. Not major changes, just boosting the tick size by about 20%-30%. Basically, I fixed the (raw, unmitigated) dot tick size at 5% of the raw unmitigated melee swing damage for consistency. That puts it at about 15% of overall damage, which seems reasonable.

e: also, regarding the TMI range, I'm not planning on tweaking it again until the next expansion. But tentatively, I'm thinking of trying a log_x(sum(x^y)) setup so that it's more constrained. Basically the log_x() of the current result. I need to do some numerical testing with sample data sets to see exactly how well that will work and whether it's has a detrimental effect on stat weight generation.

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I apologize for the random derail here. I returned back to WoW after a long period of time and I'm just settling into the new mechanics (this thread has been very very helpful!) but was curious if there is a favorite set of mods (or more helpfully a mod/addon compilation) that you might suggest as a starting point for a new prot paladin? Theres just a lot more 'stuff' going on it seems and was curious what a nice method is to monitor that visually.

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A question on the beginning part: Do you think it is wise to use EF at 3 stacks at the start of the fight? I mean if you are at full health the ticks won't do anything, and EF without any BoG stacks is going to be a pretty weak tick. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to build up those BoG stacks and then use EF, and only try to refresh it with BoG stacks instead of just keeping it rolling as though it was Sacred Shield?

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It really depends on the boss, and whether you're tanking first or not. I tend to build up 5 stacks of BoG first if I'm not actively tanking on the pull, obviously. If I am tanking, it depends on whether the boss presents any real danger in the first 20 seconds; if not, then I'll probably wait for 5 stacks; otherwise I'll use it the first time I can effectively make use of the WoG.

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So, I've been advising prot pallies tha tyou always want to go for ilevel in your gear.  The thinking was that if you've got a 540 flex haste/mastery piece and a 553 parry/dodge piece drops, you want to grab it and use it, itemization be damned.  You can reforge some of that avoidance into Haste, plus you get additional STR/STA/Armor on top of the avoidance and my math back in 5.1 or whenever it was said you can out ahead with the ilevels.

 

This has been a surprisingly tricky thing to continue to validate as the stat change on a single piece of gear is pretty small, less than the variance on a single simcraft run, particularly with our increasing focus on spike damage vs overall damage taken.  Its been a nagging concern of mine, whether I was right about that.

 

Finally it occurred to me (like, literally today) that while swapping a single piece of gear would produce a below-margin-of-error result, I could fix that by swapping multiple pieces of gear at the same time.  So I picked 4 slots (legs, shoulders, hands and head) and put together pairs of gear, one at 540 with haste/mastery and one at 553 with dodge/parry (ok, to be honest I had to invent a pair of plate legs with dodge/parry but it wasn't very hard.  The rest of the slots i just used available SoO drops) all with the same number of gem sockets.  I took the 553 pieces and reforged them for Haste.  I then compared the results of the two different gear profiles via simcraft (T16N25).

 

It was actually pretty easy to do.  In a nutshell, it just comes down to stat differences.  At those 4 slots, 540 well-itemized gear vs 553 poorly-itemized gear comes down to comparing relative stat values.

 

The battle works out to:

 

Well-itemized gear

2036 Haste + 3816 Mastery

 

vs

 

Poorly-itemized gear

1242 Stamina + 908 STR + 714 Armor + 3119 Parry + 3877 Dodge

 

Turns out, the Well-itemized gear actually won.  I ended up running multiple sims for both gear sets and averaged them together because the margin of victory was pretty small, but it was clear.

 

The Poorly-itemized (but higher ilevel) set results in approximately a 4% decrease in overall damage taken, plus you have the extra ~1250 Stamina to help survivability, but the Well-itemized gear-set was sufficiently superior at damage smoothing to more than make up for it.  The Well-itemized set never had a higher TMI than the Poorly-itemized set (though the gap for both sets was over a pretty tight range), and the Well-itemized set also delivered 1.5-2% more tank dps which is a plus.

 

Edit - What the hell happened to my text?  I'm sure that's not annoying to read at all.

 

Edit2 - Ok, manually fixed.

Edited by Wrathblood
Akawa likes this

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If you copy and paste text into this box, it inherits the rich text values of that text unless it's in raw text edit mode. Or maybe you just clicked a weird combination of style and font buttons :)

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If you copy and paste text into this box, it inherits the rich text values of that text unless it's in raw text edit mode. Or maybe you just clicked a weird combination of style and font buttons :)

Thanks, I'm just going to manually fix it in a little bit.

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Turns out, the Well-itemized gear actually won.  I ended up running multiple sims for both gear sets and averaged them together because the margin of victory was pretty small, but it was clear.

 

The Poorly-itemized (but higher ilevel) set results in approximately a 4% decrease in overall damage taken, plus you have the extra ~1250 Stamina to help survivability, but the Well-itemized gear-set was sufficiently superior at damage smoothing to more than make up for it.  The Well-itemized set never had a higher TMI than the Poorly-itemized set (though the gap for both sets was over a pretty tight range), and the Well-itemized set also delivered 1.5-2% more tank dps which is a plus.

 

I had been thinking about this as well, but hadn't had time to do any simulations on it.  A bit surprising as well, I had guessed the opposite result (that the stamina would win out).  Nice job.

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Hi guys, didnt know where to post this or if to make a new thread or so (mostly used to read instead of posting).

 

But i would definately appreciate your help on the following. I am a prot paladin still gearing up and our guild is still busy with flex to gear up. I am noticing i am taking up a lot of damage on a boss fight, but also my dps is to cry on. Before i continue i want to say i have read the guides on icy veines, this forum, other places as well (e.g. Ask Mr Robot). Have tried different builds and spend more gold on changing things instead of enjoying tanking nowadays.

 

 

In a bossfight i keep up sacred shield, shield of the righteous as much as i can, using Light's hammer. so i believe i am doing what i should rotation wise and what this forum advises to do. Also when it concerns to gearing i think i have lost the tracks.

When it concerns to dps i pull up to around 40-60k dps and when i squeeze some CD's i might take it up to 70k, but got no aggro issues mostly.

 

This is my paladin tank:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/draenor/Venereth/advanced

 

Could someone please help me out?

If i posted incorrectly, my apologies...

 

kind regards,

Venereth

Edited by Daravon

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Regarding builds: Try a haste/control build, primarily stacking haste after reaching hit and expertise cap. ShoR-uptime and dps should go up which also means smoother incoming damage. Your strength/stamina/haste-thing looks really akward.

 

Regarding glyphs (dps-wise):

Glyph of Focused Shield (singletarget encounter) > Glyph of Word of Glory = Glyph of Holy Wrath

 

Execution Sentence also contributes to more dps in a singletarget fight then Light's Hammer. Use your CD's (Avenging Wrath/Holy Avenger) when you are taunting and then burn the boss. After that there really is not much you can do because high vengeance is the determing factor for tank dps.

Edited by aylen86

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Sorry if it's a little off topic, I've been away from the forums for a bit. Regarding the T16 2-piece bonus of Healing for 75% of dmg taken while DP is up. Has anyone tested to confirm is that is before or after mitigation? I'm wondering for the sake of Effective Healing you get based on when you use it/is it glyphed or not. I understand that even if it's not glyphed it will still take into account physical dmg dealt to you while it was up, but the magic dmg you were dealt while it was up will either heal you for how much you would have taken without it up, or the amount you did take after 40% reduction. If the amount of the heal is based on dmg take after mitigation (Which I suspect based on the wording of the effect) then it may be better to keep it glyphed for fights like Lie Shi or Immersus where you know you will take a lot of Magic dmg. Of course only do this if you healers know what's going on, and you know you will survive Corrosive Blast/that 12th stack of rushing waters or whatever.  This will make you take more damage from the initial hit, but also heal more of it back up after.

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It uses post-mitigation damage. Absorbed damage does count towards the amount, however (i.e. Sacred Shield would not diminish the healing amount).

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Is the tier 16 4 set bonus worth getting?  I have Warforged shoulders and Warforged legs that I could be using, but I just recently got my 4 set tier bonus, so I've been using the tier. I just don't know though, because the warforged gear has so much haste on it. Is the 4 set worth forgoing the warforged haste gear? I tank 10 man Normals, just killed Garrosh for the first time last week. Looking to start Heroic progression soonish.

Edited by Vatikin

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Is the tier 16 4 set bonus worth getting?  I have Warforged shoulders and Warforged legs that I could be using, but I just recently got my 4 set tier bonus, so I've been using the tier. I just don't know though, because the warforged gear has so much haste on it. Is the 4 set worth forgoing the warforged haste gear? I tank 10 man Normals, just killed Garrosh for the first time last week. Looking to start Heroic progression soonish.

 

I can't say how good the 4 set is from a numbers perspective but for me the convenience it provides is invaluable. It basically decouples my EF usage from my Holy Power which allows me to time my SotR with damage without worrying that I might need to refresh my EF or use is as an emergency cooldown very soon. It might be a personal preference (and a bad choice) but I chose to tank with a flex tier helm and LFR tier gloves over a normal off-tier helm and even heroic gloves. It was just so much smoother for me that it allowed me to focus on mechanics better.

 

The direct heal part of EF can be quite significant at high-ish vengeance levels - I've had >700k ones at Juggernaut HC, so being able to delay that until the moment I will need it without disrupting my SotR rhythm has been quite helpful.

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Is the tier 16 4 set bonus worth getting?  I have Warforged shoulders and Warforged legs that I could be using, but I just recently got my 4 set tier bonus, so I've been using the tier. I just don't know though, because the warforged gear has so much haste on it. Is the 4 set worth forgoing the warforged haste gear? I tank 10 man Normals, just killed Garrosh for the first time last week. Looking to start Heroic progression soonish.

 

Ballpark, optimally used t16p4 provides a flat +10% ShoR uptime increase and very roughly +5% dps.  Matching this with stats takes about 4k mastery and 4k haste.  Obviously this is pretty rough because if you're already at decently high gear levels and stacking Haste, adding +10% ShoR uptime would take a GIGANTIC and unreachable amount of additional Haste which would give you far more than +5% dps.  That's why I included the Mastery for damage reduction and smoothing purposes.  It doesn't accomplish the exact same thing but it gets you to a roughly comparable result.  Anyway, it gives you a ballpark idea.  

 

In terms of ilevels, it is almost worth it to swap 4 pieces of 553 non-tier gear for 4 pieces of identically itemized 540 tier gear purely to pick up our t16p4 bonus.  Adding in our 2 piece bonus makes it a no brainer.  Its that good.

Edited by Wrathblood

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And all of that is ignoring the huge benefit it gives to survivability through EF.

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No, I think that's covered by your SotR uptime comment. I mean in flexibilty by allowing EF to be used/refreshed somewhat independent of Holy Power. Being able to use SotR and EF within the same GCD period is really strong to recover from a large spike.

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Ballpark, optimally used t16p4 provides a flat +10% ShoR uptime increase and very roughly +5% dps.  Matching this with stats takes about 4k mastery and 4k haste.  Obviously this is pretty rough because if you're already at decently high gear levels and stacking Haste, adding +10% ShoR uptime would take a GIGANTIC and unreachable amount of additional Haste which would give you far more than +5% dps.  That's why I included the Mastery for damage reduction and smoothing purposes.  It doesn't accomplish the exact same thing but it gets you to a roughly comparable result.  Anyway, it gives you a ballpark idea.  

 

In terms of ilevels, it is almost worth it to swap 4 pieces of 553 non-tier gear for 4 pieces of identically itemized 540 tier gear purely to pick up our t16p4 bonus.  Adding in our 2 piece bonus makes it a no brainer.  Its that good.

 

 

Theck recently did a very informative blog post about this, btw. It seems like your estimate is about accurate.

 

http://www.sacredduty.net/2014/01/07/itemization-value-of-4t16/

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