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Jurugar

Sneaking into 5.4 Raiding - Subtlety DPS Guide (with Pun!)

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from your post i can assume you never done thok heroic, but forgive me if im wrong. theres a reason i rank 13 with only 350k dps and that is because thok, esp on heroic, requires some mad balls to have high uptime, and is many times not at all possible.

 

doing 380k is no hard task given a proper boss for it such as juggernaut. however doing 380k with my 370k sim on a boss like thok hc and on our first kill aswell? claiming i would do that "easily" is, im sorry, a bit naive :P

 

damage per energy is not always relevant. you cannot compare eviscerate to rupture and say "rupture is 25 energy and evis is 35 so rupture is always worth using". the reason eviscerate doesnt go up to the full tooltip is because of armor which is ignored during fw. 

 

comparing dmg on fw evis with rupture, eviscerate will come out on top. dpe is something else and you cannot say that rupture being at 25e is always worth using. the 10 energy that you dont spend will instead be put into less than a third of a backstab. whether adding that to rupture dmg or not offsets it from outdmging an evis i dont know.

 

you also cannot compare them to each other like that in a vacuum. say i decide to use rupture on fw. the worst case scenario is refreshing it with 10s left on fw. even during those 10 seconds, rupture will only tick 5 times. after that, fw is gone and evis will no longer ignore armor. that is only half a ruptures worth of damage and it would be wiser to squeeze in more eviscerates during fw and then use cps on rupture when fw is no longer active

 

edit: ah i understand now what you meant by critchance on melee swings. if you go on a dummy and test yourself you will see why it rates melee swings with such high crit chance. make sure its a boss dummy

 

or if you feel lazy you can just click here http://i.imgur.com/CCupcNX.png

Edited by alaxel

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from your post i can assume you never done thok heroic, but forgive me if im wrong. theres a reason i rank 13 with only 350k dps and that is because thok, esp on heroic, requires some mad balls to have high uptime, and is many times not at all possible.

 

doing 380k is no hard task given a proper boss for it such as juggernaut. however doing 380k with my 370k sim on a boss like thok hc and on our first kill aswell? claiming i would do that "easily" is, im sorry, a bit naive :P

 

damage per energy is not always relevant. you cannot compare eviscerate to rupture and say "rupture is 25 energy and evis is 35 so rupture is always worth using". the reason eviscerate doesnt go up to the full tooltip is because of armor which is ignored during fw. 

 

comparing dmg on fw evis with rupture, eviscerate will come out on top. dpe is something else and you cannot say that rupture being at 25e is always worth using. the 10 energy that you dont spend will instead be put into less than a third of a backstab. whether adding that to rupture dmg or not offsets it from outdmging an evis i dont know.

 

you also cannot compare them to each other like that in a vacuum. say i decide to use rupture on fw. the worst case scenario is refreshing it with 10s left on fw. even during those 10 seconds, rupture will only tick 5 times. after that, fw is gone and evis will no longer ignore armor. that is only half a ruptures worth of damage and it would be wiser to squeeze in more eviscerates during fw and then use cps on rupture when fw is no longer active

 

edit: ah i understand now what you meant by critchance on melee swings. if you go on a dummy and test yourself you will see why it rates melee swings with such high crit chance. make sure its a boss dummy

 

or if you feel lazy you can just click here http://i.imgur.com/CCupcNX.png

 

I meant 380k in general, I havent done Thok heroic but I assume it's a complicated fight - which is why I was surprised you had near 100% uptime. What you're saying now makes sense, but that's different than what you said before - "I just noticed Evis does more damage on the tooltip". The major point about rupture being more energy efficient gets diluted when you realize that Eviscerate is probably the best energy dump we have; however, while that 10 energy may or may not make up the gap of damage, it also adds 1/3 more combo point generation, which leads to more Eviscerates.

 

However, it's important to remember that Find Weakness is not some rare proc or cooldown that we have - you can get 70%+ uptime on many fights. You can get into trouble by saying things like "I dont use rupture during Find Weakness" when that boils down to only using Rupture 30% of the possible times you would want to refresh it.

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damage per energy is not always relevant. you cannot compare eviscerate to rupture and say "rupture is 25 energy and evis is 35 so rupture is always worth using". the reason eviscerate doesnt go up to the full tooltip is because of armor which is ignored during fw. 

 

comparing dmg on fw evis with rupture, eviscerate will come out on top. dpe is something else and you cannot say that rupture being at 25e is always worth using. the 10 energy that you dont spend will instead be put into less than a third of a backstab. whether adding that to rupture dmg or not offsets it from outdmging an evis i dont know.

 

DPE is relevant in most cases, and this is no exception. That 10 energy is worth (on average) 80k damage for me, (I'd look you up but it's not as easy as it once was. A-hem.). So your eviscerates would have to do (on average) 80k more damage than your ruptures. Looking at your log, your average rupture did 417k, and an unmitgated eviscerate would do close to 15% more than that, so about 480k. That's less than the 507k it would have to do to break even.

 

It's possible that since you're not using rupture during FW your (average) rupture damage is somewhat inflated, and the margin might be closer than that, but I very much doubt that it changes the conclusion.

Edited by Palanuial

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I meant 380k in general, I havent done Thok heroic but I assume it's a complicated fight - which is why I was surprised you had near 100% uptime. What you're saying now makes sense, but that's different than what you said before - "I just noticed Evis does more damage on the tooltip". The major point about rupture being more energy efficient gets diluted when you realize that Eviscerate is probably the best energy dump we have; however, while that 10 energy may or may not make up the gap of damage, it also adds 1/3 more combo point generation, which leads to more Eviscerates.

 

However, it's important to remember that Find Weakness is not some rare proc or cooldown that we have - you can get 70%+ uptime on many fights. You can get into trouble by saying things like "I dont use rupture during Find Weakness" when that boils down to only using Rupture 30% of the possible times you would want to refresh it.

 

 

But that 70% uptime isn't constant where you say "Ok I'm done casting rupture for the rest of the fight" It goes up and comes down and in between I keep rupture up, and I try to time it so that its being reapplied right before entering a new FW phase (easy to control with cooldowns but not with 4pc procs). Although after reading your post and  some reevaluation and testing of rupture ticks vs evis, I found takes 3 non crit rupture ticks for me to make up the difference between a non crit 5pt evis during fw vs non crit 5pt evis when FW is down. So keeping it up is more important than I was giving it credit for, if I start a dance and it falls off it's worth reapplying because that would be 10-15s of rupture downtime that would be more than 3 ticks lost, which would be a loss compared to an Evis at that point. Based on that 3 tick (for non crit again so that's worst case) if you have 6s left on FW then don't reapply rupture, hit the Evis and then get rupture up next once FW is over, otherwise refresh it. The other thing to consider too is that using the rupture during dance is 10 more energy you save to go towards more Ambush.

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...if I start a dance and it falls off it's worth reapplying...

If what you think is true, that eviscerate is higher DPE during FW than rupture is, then there would never be a time where you would use rupture over eviscerate during FW.

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No I'm saying because rupture is higher DPE, something I was overlooking when I said in a previous post I was only Evis spamming earlier, that it is worth reapplying almost anytime during FW. What I was offering is that when FW is winding down, and your option is to a) reapply rupture while FW is up and then your next Evis is after FW ends, or b ) delay reapplying rupture and hitting Evis before the FW falls and rupture next. When there is less than 3 ticks (6s) left in the FW, there is a small gain to Evis then Rupture. Before while I would try to keep rupture up before getting FW up, I wouldn't reapply if it was, and that was incorrect because I was overlooking the DPE factor.

Edited by Monco

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I misunderstood you then. But the point still stands, if one is better than the other at some point during FW, then it is better at all points. (Except at the end of the fight, where you might waste rupture ticks.)

 

Keeping that exception in mind, let me draw a hypothetical to illustrate my point. Imagine that rupture, rather than being a dot, was a finisher with a 24s cooldown that did unmitigated damage. Delaying the application of rupture is essentially the same as delaying such an ability.

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the dpe factor and rupture during dance only applies if that extra 10 energy can actually lead to an additional ambush, otherwise the energy is "pointless"

 

or did you find 10/35 of a backstab to be bigger than the difference between rupture and unmitigated evis?

 

i guess this would also change with mastery levels? getting a 580 aoc makes mastery better than crit. not much but enough to MAYBE warrant a change from crit to mastery thus making this discussion bit more relevant in terms of actual output

Edited by alaxel

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the dpe factor and rupture during dance only applies if that extra 10 energy can actually lead to an additional ambush, otherwise the energy is "pointless"

 

or did you find 10/35 of a backstab to be bigger than the difference between rupture and unmitigated evis?

 

This is a good point, and one I did account for when estimating the value of 10 energy. But I simply did something similar to saying that 1/4 times that 10 energy will mean an additional ambush. (Actually it was a little more conservative then that, but I don't have time to lay out all the details right now.) If you are very consistent in your energy management, that need not reflect reality. So if it's never the case that you get an additional ambush, then the difference between using and not using rupture during FW becomes smaller, but it's still slightly in favor of rupture.

 

Also, (10/35 * your average backstab) is a lower bound for the value of 10 energy, but not a decent estimate for it.

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Hmm. This is how I was looking at it with some numbers. When FW is almost over, and you delay reapplying rupture by 2 ticks, those ticks are lost forever. If non crit ticks are say, 20k, then you lost 40k that you can't get back. But if the trade is an Evis with FW up which non crit does say 60k more than a non crit Evis with FW down. Where ignoring rupture during FW all the time would be a loss because that would be many ticks lost, delaying for a couple second appears better to me, or is there something else I've overlooked? (Entirely possible, I just wanted to throw some rough numbers I was seeing with the dummy under controlled buffs, no trinket procs, etc to explain better what I was going after) Basically I'm saying trade 2 ticks of Rupture for 40k to gain 60k with the Evis at end of FW, and then apply the rupture seems to me to come out just slightly ahead. I don't think the difference is huge but in the intrest of min-maxing and getting out all the damage you can, I believe this way to be slightly better than simply reapplying rupture no matter when.

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Hmm. This is how I was looking at it with some numbers. When FW is almost over, and you delay reapplying rupture by 2 ticks, those ticks are lost forever. If non crit ticks are say, 20k, then you lost 40k that you can't get back. But if the trade is an Evis with FW up which non crit does say 60k more than a non crit Evis with FW down. Where ignoring rupture during FW all the time would be a loss because that would be many ticks lost, delaying for a couple second appears better to me, or is there something else I've overlooked? (Entirely possible, I just wanted to throw some rough numbers I was seeing with the dummy under controlled buffs, no trinket procs, etc to explain better what I was going after) Basically I'm saying trade 2 ticks of Rupture for 40k to gain 60k with the Evis at end of FW, and then apply the rupture seems to me to come out just slightly ahead. I don't think the difference is huge but in the intrest of min-maxing and getting out all the damage you can, I believe this way to be slightly better than simply reapplying rupture no matter when.

 

I misunderstood you then. But the point still stands, if one is better than the other at some point during FW, then it is better at all points. (Except at the end of the fight, where you might waste rupture ticks.)

 

As I wrote in the guide itself, there are times during FW when you dont reapply rupture, and times that you do. The case I gave in the guide for delaying rupture was if you had 5 anticipation charges, 5 combo points and rupture was falling off with 1 second left on Find Weakness - you can easily justify delaying rupture by 1 second to get the Eviscerate under the Find Weakness, because the damage lost from delaying rupture would be less than the boost from getting Eviscerate in.

 

Again, as I wrote in the guide, a general rule of thumb is to reapply rupture during Find Weakness unless you would lose less than 3 ticks (i.e. 6 seconds). And that's even before you seriously consider having 10 extra energy.

 

EDIT: Not to sound like a dick in the post, it's just frustrating seeing you guys circle around a point that I already clearly made in the guide.

Edited by Jurugar

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is anyone here geared enough in both combat+sub specs to test out actual dmg on single target? for example juggernaut. someone with 578 or even more. right now combat rogues have higher top ranks on juggernaut than subtlety and i myself cant make that happen with my gear, 574.

 

my sub both sims and performs higher than my combat. i have the same ilvl weapons in both specs. 574 norushen daggers in sub and a 574 softfoot in combat. all my other gear is the same. im using my sub reforge in combat but according to sims it should be a 5k dps difference and not a 30-40k one as im seeing right now on juggernaut

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I am at 579 currently, but my guild doesn't kill the boss (Iron Juggernaut) nearly fast enough (behind 1+ min from most parses).

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is anyone here geared enough in both combat+sub specs to test out actual dmg on single target? for example juggernaut. someone with 578 or even more. right now combat rogues have higher top ranks on juggernaut than subtlety and i myself cant make that happen with my gear, 574.

 

my sub both sims and performs higher than my combat. i have the same ilvl weapons in both specs. 574 norushen daggers in sub and a 574 softfoot in combat. all my other gear is the same. im using my sub reforge in combat but according to sims it should be a 5k dps difference and not a 30-40k one as im seeing right now on juggernaut

 

Combat scale better with the gear (assuming you already have 4p T16, AoC and a slow mainhand), after a certain ilvl you will get more dps with combat than sub (something like 570/572). On a short fight you will have more dps with sub because of the burst and high uptime of find weakness during the first 2mins, but if the fight last 5/6mins or more combat will be ahead.

Edited by FuZ

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Combat scale better with the gear (assuming you already have 4p T16, AoC and a slow mainhand), after a certain ilvl you will get more dps with combat than sub (something like 570/572). On a short fight you will have more dps with sub because of the burst and high uptime of find weakness during the first 2mins, but if the fight last 5/6mins or more combat will be ahead.

 

somehow that is the opposite of what wol is showing since top combat logs are ahead of sub logs

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somehow that is the opposite of what wol is showing since top combat logs are ahead of sub logs

 

I said combat is ahead, the only moment where sub can be ahead is when the fight is short or if you are low geared.

 

So that's normal if top combat logs are ahead of top sub logs

Edited by FuZ
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rank kills are much faster than the speed at which my guild kills bosses. the difference between ascendance jugg kills and my kills is 250 vs 340 seconds.

 

and what you are saying i dont agree with, at 572 ilvl combat pulls ahead. i have 576 ilvl in both specs and both perform and sim higher as sub with whatever fight duration you put in. havent checked above 360 seconds but thats hardly necessary.

Edited by alaxel

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