Dobs

Warlords of Draenor hunter discussion

21 posts in this topic

MOD EDIT

Rules will be enforced less strictly in this thread.  Hopefully people will be mature and contribute and I won't have to moderate here at all.  Things that are specifically allowed here but not elsewhere include wishlisting, armchair design, feelings and reactions, conjecture, and opinion.  Discussion is as always open to theorycrafting and game play, but things like art that are normally off topic are also included.

 

Posters still need to use clear and polite language.  And while the objective quality of post content won't be enforced here, posts still do have to have content.  "Here is how I feel about this feature, and why" is a good post.  "I am happy / sad / angry about this feature and am / am not going to resub because of it" is not a good post.

 

This thread will be locked at the end of the beta when the expansion goes live.  Have fun!

 

MysticalOS

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So I saw these new hunter talents(link bellow) and found one of them very interresting. "With or Without You" gives your pet "new" abilities for Beast Master as you can see. This either means that those who choose MM and Surv no longer have pet abilities, or this talent is not yet finished.
 
Bola Shot (replaces Arcane Shot, causes fire damage five yards around target)
Snipe (replaces Steady/Cobra Shot, decent damage and 60 focus regen, still refreshes Serpent Sting)
With or Without You (BM - gives your pet(s) abillities from every pet spec, non-BM get's 30% dps when pet is not summoned).
 
The Snipe and Bola Shot seems pretty interresting to. So what are your thoughts on this?.
You'll have to excause my bad English.
 
http://www.wowhead.com/talent-wod#h <---lvl 100 talents.

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MMO Champion has a few more details:

 

  • Bola Shot
    • 30 Focus, 40 yd range
    • Instant
    • Fires a bola at the target, which wraps around them. After 1 sec, it explodes, dealing 3000 Fire damage to them, and an additional 2000 Fire damage to all enemies within 5 yards.
    • Replaces Arcane Shot.
  • Snipe
    • 40 yd range
    • 2.77 sec cast
    • Requires Ranged Weapon
    • Carefully line up the perfect shot, dealing 150% weapon damage. Generates 60 Focus.
    • Cannot be cast while moving.
    • Replaces Steady Shot and Cobra Shot.
    • Beast Mastery & Survival
      • Also refreshes Serpent Sting.
    • Marksmanship
      • Also triggers Steady Focus.
  • With or Without You
    • Beast Mastery (Versatility)
      • Passive
      • Increases the effect of your pet's Combat experience to 70% increased damage. Your pet now gains the following abilities, regardless of spec:
        • Rabid
        • Spiked Collar
        • Thunderstomp
        • Blood of the Rhino
        • Great Stamina
        • Bullheaded
        • Cornered
        • Boar's Speed
    • Marksmanship & Survival (Lone Wolf)
      • Passive
      • Increases all damage dealt by 30% when you don't have a pet active.

 

WOWY is pretty good as a concept, but really depends on if they can make the pet do exactly 30% of the hunter's damage (and you don't need any of the utility abilities). I can see it being situationally very useful for bosses with pet pathing problems. 

Edited by Kamangir

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  • With or Without You
    • Beast Mastery (Versatility)
      • Passive
      • Increases the effect of your pet's Combat experience to 70% increased damage. Your pet now gains the following abilities, regardless of spec:
        • Rabid
        • Spiked Collar
        • Thunderstomp
        • Blood of the Rhino
        • Great Stamina
        • Bullheaded
        • Cornered
        • Boar's Speed
    • Marksmanship & Survival (Lone Wolf)
      • Passive
      • Increases all damage dealt by 30% when you don't have a pet active.

70% increased damage, that's pretty strong. I don't know how much damage the beast master's pet got now, but with all those talents the pet is going to be able to take/do alot of damage. A top of that we gain an extra aoe ability(Thunderstomp).

 

So if your pet dies during an encounter. Will you then recieve the 30% damage buff?, since your pet is still there. If it does not count as active, then you could ignore to summon your pet in situations where this might be difficult to do.

Edited by Dobs

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So if your pet dies during an encounter. Will you then recieve the 30% damage buff?, since your pet is still there. If it does not count as active, then you could ignore to summon your pet in situations where this might be difficult to do.

 

Very unlikely, as the talents are different by spec. It will probably function like the priest talents that do different things for disc/holy and shadow; if you're shadow spec you get the shadow version of the talent, even if you aren't in shadowform.

 

As far as choosing not to run with a pet as BM in case the talent DID give you 30% damage, there's still no way it would be optimal. Right now as BM my pet does closer to 45% of my damage and that's with bare minimum mastery reforging. If they plan on 30% being the balance point for the talent for survival and MM it stands to reason that even if they change a lot of things between now and 6.0 BM's pet damage will still be considerably higher than that. Basically if there's a fight where you would consider not using a pet as BM, even with 30% more damage for you, you should really think about using a different spec instead.

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Very unlikely, as the talents are different by spec. It will probably function like the priest talents that do different things for disc/holy and shadow; if you're shadow spec you get the shadow version of the talent, even if you aren't in shadowform.

 

As far as choosing not to run with a pet as BM in case the talent DID give you 30% damage, there's still no way it would be optimal. Right now as BM my pet does closer to 45% of my damage and that's with bare minimum mastery reforging. If they plan on 30% being the balance point for the talent for survival and MM it stands to reason that even if they change a lot of things between now and 6.0 BM's pet damage will still be considerably higher than that. Basically if there's a fight where you would consider not using a pet as BM, even with 30% more damage for you, you should really think about using a different spec instead.

 

I'm sorry for being unclear, the part about the 30% damage buff was meant for MM and Surv

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Ah okay, that makes a bit more sense, but rereading it I'm still not sure I understand the question. If you take that talent as MM/SV then you really shouldn't be using a pet because that's like throwing away your level 100 talent. That's potentially a big price to pay in order to protect your damage in the case your pet happens to die (assuming that does trigger the talent) or you want to dismiss it for a while because it can't attack. If having a pet out is worth more than the damage gained from the talent (remember to factor in buffs/debuffs provided by your pet that you might otherwise be missing) then you should probably just use the pet and take a different talent; unless the fight is REALLY unconducive to snipe's movement limitation and bola shot's damage.

 

Also keep in mind this is quite early in design/testing for the expansion. I would not be surprised if none of those 3 talents made it to live. Particularly bola shot, which seems rather uninspired.

Edited by Mericet

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Ah okay, that makes a bit more sense, but rereading it I'm still not sure I understand the question. If you take that talent as MM/SV then you really shouldn't be using a pet because that's like throwing away your level 100 talent. 

 

I think that's the point. If they can balance the pet to do a static 30% of hunter damage (which I sincerely doubt), the talent allows you to unburden yourself from having a pet at all. You essentially become a solo archer. Depending on how the numbers fall at the end of the day (and even if the talent as it exists today survives) I think WOWY is a talent that's only useful for BM hunters and everybody else will take one of the other two. As has been mentioned, there's way too many ways to buff the pet to do more damage. Even if pets did exactly 30.0% of hunter damage, the talent would still not really be worth it. Even on a tank and spank, it doesn't result in you getting any more dps.

 

 

Particularly bola shot, which seems rather uninspired.

 

I think it's "inspired" by Diablo 3 Demon Hunter ability of the same name. 

Edited by Kamangir

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What if the pet's damage is lower than 30% of our total damage? Then WoWY would be a straight up damage increase, I agree if pet damage is exactly 30% it would be almost useless, but since it gives such a big bonus to BM hunter I don't think it would be a do nothing talent for MM and Surv, therefore if we assume our pets do 20% of our damage, this talent would account for a 10% damage increase on non-BM hunters which is pretty good.

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If we assume our pets will do only 15% of our damage then it's even better still! But that doesn't mean it's a fair assumption. At least for single target, they will figure out how much of our damage they want our pets to do, then balance WOWY to account for that number relative to the opportunity cost of not taking the other talents in the tier, depending on how much damage they want the class to gain from that talent row. Trying to guess any of the actual numbers right now is pointless. There are plenty of issues they have to work out before they even think about balancing the numbers (like what they want to do about fervor, intimidation, blink strikes, and lynx rush if you don't have a pet).

 

I would expect it to eventually end up being worth a bit less damage than a talent like Snipe by default because Snipe is an active talent with a drawback while WOWY is a passive talent with extra benefit in that you can avoid the occasional pet AI issues when they pop up for some fights and is also likely to be superior for AOE.

 

As for bola shot, I meant 'uninspired' as uncreative or uninteresting, rather than not being inspired by something else. It makes much more sense in a Diablo setting where you have many more options for that button slot and can use runes to modify it to do more interesting things, but for WOW as a level 100 talent? I think it's probably just a placeholder ability they put in so they could show off a 'full' talent tree at blizzcon. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm expecting many more changes than just that.

Edited by Mericet

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They have also said they wanted passive talents to be weaker than ones you have to use, but given the way the level 100 tier looks that may not apply/make sense.

 

But still, from 50% to 70% damage bonus for BM (assuming the passive isn't changed for the patch prior to the talent being taken), isn't that huge.

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I wouldn't even mind if WoWY was a slight dps loss for MM or SV. The thing you aren't seeing is this gives you the ability to use your pet or not depending on the circumstance. If there is a lot of target switching I know i see my pet running around a lot so it would be more beneficial if i could do all the dps.. Provided i don't need to provide a raid buff. If it is a single target fight like Ultraxion having a pet out might be a little more beneficial. 

 

I don't pvp but imagine in PVP someone goes after your pet or maybe you send your pet on a suicide run at your opponent while you hit him in the distance. Your pet goes down he comes after you but you are hittin harder now.. You kite for the win.. Rez pet rinse and repeat.

 

None of these talents are meant to give big bonus. Just a quality of life change.

 

 

Edit:

Snipe i imagine would give a moderate dps gain but it has it's drawbacks that it wouldn't be useful on every fight.. but the elitist hunters will use it maximize their dps.. 

 

Bola.. Who would use arcane shot rather then multi-shot when multiple targets are up? In my opinion a slight dps increase in that it limits itself depending on the number of targets. It would be nice if they gave this back to explosive shot.. But I hate to be that guy who complains..

Edited by Aadyn

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This is just a copy/paste from what I posted on my own guilds hunter forums

 

 

 

I am really interested in to hear your guys' thoughts on hunters for the new expansion.  I recently remembered that the 100 talents got released a while ago and went to check them out.

First Impressions

Bola Shot
    Replaces Arcane Shot, and does some AoE damage
Snipe
    Requires little to no movement for almost 3 seconds every ~8-9 secs.
With or Without You
    Sacrificing pet damage for more personal damage, or giving your pet even more damage sounds like it will work really well.

Reasoning

Bola Shot
    As it stands right now, Bola Shot does 3,000 damage after 1 second of landing on the target, and does 2,000 damage at the same time to anything within 5 yards of the initial target.  Will be interesting to see if we will have to stagger using this shot to make sure the damage happens.  Outside of heavy AoE fights, I dont see this being picked, specially with out the weapon damage scaling most spells have.

Snipe
    Has a 2.7 second cast time, that generates 60 focus as well as refreshing Serpent Sting for BM and Surv, or giving you Steady Focus for MM.  MM is the only spec that I see this being viable for, and even then it is incredibly situational.  Casting one spell for 2.7 seconds to gain 60 focus, rather than casting two spells for 2 seconds each and only getting 28 focus.  In this scenario, both give Steady Focus but one takes almost 2x the time and gives less than half the focus back,  but again Snipe cant be cast while moving.

With or Without You
    I think this is what most of the hunters will pick for this tier.  30% increased damage for MM and Survival when you dont have a pet out, and BM gets 70% increased damage for their pet as well as they gain a bunch of the buffs each pet talent tree gives (rabid, thunderstomp, etc).   Using FemaleDwarf I was able to look at all of our hunters' sim'd dps (as well as see how much their pet was contributing).  At this time the only spec of that has pet damage being higher percentage than 30% of our total damage is BM (averaging 40% of BMs total damage comes from the pet), where Survival and MM only has 10-13% of their damage coming from their pet.  In the end, I think all specs will see a big boost in damage from this talent.  

Survival/MM getting about a 20% damage increase, 100% - 10%(pet damage) + 30% increased damage = 120% current damage)

It will either be a 28 or 30% increase to BM's damage.  Currently BMs damage breaks down to 40% Pet and 60% Hunter.  One way to look at it would be 70% of 40 (pet damage) is 28, so it would look a little like 68% + 60% = 128% of current damage.  The other way to look at it is percentage of damage your pet deals goes up to 70% while the hunters contribution still stays at 60%, making it look like 70% + 60% = 130% of current damage.  The wording of the talent makes me question which it is.

 

Edited by Mortifero

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My toughts are, that Bola Shot will a really good Skill for Add heavy Fights that don't have much Life. As a BM you can fire 4 Bolas. Thats some High AOE Spike in my Opinion. And it will be easier to manage than Multishot+Pet Aoe.

 

They missed something on WOWY. It gives all Skills from every Pet Specc. So include Roar of Sacrifice etc. in there. The Talent makes Ferocity standard Talentset in PvP for BM too, and Cunning completely Obsolete.

 

Snipe has a way too long Casttime to be viable in my Eyes. And didn't they say they would remove the Serpent Sting?

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WoD Hunter Talent Calculator

 

Bola Shot got replaced - current plan is with http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=162534. Also Focusing Shot's focus regen is not negligible.

 

Yeah sadly. Well The Exotics looks pretty much useless to me in regards to the other talents. Focusing Shot regens much more Focus yeah, but you can't use it while moving. Unless there will be a Glyphe to do that i would always chose WOWY. Focus Managment isn't that hard to begin with. And another pro for WOWY would be that it gives your raid a survival skill (Roar of Sacrifice). To be honest i miss a good Surv Ablity on Hunters. Deterrence is not so good in Comparision to skills from other classes.

Edited by Stygia

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In it's current state http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=163485">Focusing Shot takes 3 seconds to cast and returns 50 focus. This is in place of Cobra/Steady shots.

 

http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=56641">Steady shot - 2 second cast 14 focus regen

http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=145654">Cobra shot - 2 second cast 14 focus regen

 

Arleady it's evident the focus regen is rather significant and we can break this down a little more to see how the talent is not completely useless.

 

I'm going to use the http://wod.wowhead.com/item=104399"> 569Hellscream's Warbow for this calculation.

 

Base weapon damage of the bow is 357-664.

CS does 84% weapon damage (70% + 20% from http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=157712">Improved Cobra Shot)

SS does 42% weapon damage (35% + 20% from http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=157729">Improved Steady Shot)

FS does 120% weapon damage (100% + 20% from ISS/ICS (https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statuses/472265679068884992)

 

With these modifiers we have the shots hitting for:

CS 299.88 - 557.76 damage (149.94 - 278.88 dps)

SS 149.94 - 278.88 damage (74.97 - 139.44 dps)

FS 428.4 - 796.8 damage (142.8 - 265.6 dps)

 

Let's also consider to receive the same amount of focus one needs to cast 4x CS/SS (more than 50 sure but I'm assuming at least 50) which would take 5 seconds longer. Even if you can do that while moving I could disengage, stop to cast FS and still be done before your 4 casts completed if movement were necessary or I could get off 2 FS in that same period of time with 2 seconds and a ton of focus to spare. Also to consider for MM Hunters, http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=53224">Steady Focus is applied after only one FS cast (https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statuses/454748667233071104).

 

I'm not really sure how everyone plays but there are plenty of times where I am stationary for more than 3 seconds and could cast a spell that required me not to move. 

 

I'm going to wait for sim results and more information before I make my choice but I can guarantee it won't be a clear cut choice and my talents will cycle every now and then. I like the idea of Lone Wolf but if I do more damage with Focusing Shot I'd run that even if my entire rotation is no longer usable on the move.

 

Edit: Wrong numbers for SS weapon damage calculation

Edited by Zybero

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In it's current state http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=163485">Focusing Shot takes 3 seconds to cast and returns 50 focus. This is in place of Cobra/Steady shots.

 

http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=56641">Steady shot - 2 second cast 14 focus regen

http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=145654">Cobra shot - 2 second cast 14 focus regen

I would've included the focus gain from http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=53224">Steady Focus. Since Steady Focus should have up to 100% uptime and you rarely generate only 14(50) focus, but rather 17(53).

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I left out focus/haste from http://wod.wowhead.com/spell=53224">Steady Focus (although I'd assume it also applies to Focusing Shot anyways) and the extra serpent sting bonus from Cobra Shot for the purpose of comparing raw spell cast assuming it is the first cast on a target. Each spec will also now have the 5% bonus to a secondary stat so Steady shot will also crit more often than cobra shot and focusing shot becomes more valuable for MM than the other 2 specs.

 

It's hard to compare the 3 shots otherwise without being able to sim them.

Edited by Zybero

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Okay that sounds logical :/ It will be interesting to see what will be better for BM.

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Since focus regen and cast time improve at the same rate given hate, we can more easily include regen in shot considerations. Thus, CS/SS provides 14+8 and FS provides 50+12. FS creates big swings in your focus pool, because if you are not 62 down (or 68 down with steady focus), you will focus cap.  For SV with it's smaller focus pool, getting below 32 focus before you FS is risky: what if ES, BA, and glaive all have a CD that aligns? Or perhaps you are 45 focus and barrage is coming off CD? FS needs to be enough better that it is still a win even though you will likely focus cap and focus starve a couple of times per fight. In simc using the current action lists:

20763  34.3%  sv_0002113
20275  33.5%  sv_0002111
19545  32.3%  sv_0002112

As you can see, 2112 (DB, AMoC, Glaive, FS) is the lowest damage by far (the version with steady focus is even worse). That may be changed by a tuning pass. More importantly, that may be changed by improved action lists. There's plenty of room for improvement. For example in the MM action list, pooling focus before rapid fire so you could spam AiS added 500 dps. SV in particular could use some insight!  Please download the beta simc from http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/ and share your feedback and experiments.

Edited by Lokrick

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i think that, at this point, SV will be a valuable choice as a secondary spec for wod. Simcraft put sv as second spec in damage and i think that it will be a most valuable choice for aoe encounters.

anyone is doing a guide for this spec?

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