Charybdis

Warlords of Draenor paladin discussion

78 posts in this topic

-Hammer of the Righteous removed as an independent spell. Now, casting Seal of Righteousness will replace CS with HotR. Pop another seal to return to CS.

 

Not really sure I like these changes, at least for Ret. The first should be fine for Prot assuming the heal itself isn't nerfed. The second change just feels like a case of dumbing down too much though.

I think it's the opposite of dumbing down.  It requires additional micromanagement to use most effectively.  It is requiring 2 GCD to move between single target and AOE.  In order to hit more than one target you would need to swap from SoT to SoR, then you throw out a HotR (assuming you're in range of your primary target).  This makes varying number of targets (i.e. adds spawning in waves and dying reasonably quickly) a pain.

 

I suspect you'll see your average (not high-end) Protadin simply stick with SoT+CS and let Holy Wrath, Consecrate, and Avenging Shield bounces pick up and hold additional targets.  Just swap target for your CS and Judge every so often.

 

Unless they tweak HotR and SoR, it's going to make AOE next to impossible for Ret.  We currently require 2 targets for HotR to pull ahead of CS, and 6 for SoR.  Since we would lose a GCD to the seal swap, we'd need something on the order of 4-6 targets alive for a reasonable length of time just to make the seal swaps and far lesser damage to each individual target worthwhile.

 

All this without fixing the issue where you must have a target and the target must be in range/facing/etc for HotR to engage.

 

It continues to amuse me how Ret Paladin went from king-of-incidental-AOE in Wrath to struggles-to-AOE by Mists.

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From a prot point of view, picking up multiple adds, stray or new will even be more difficult now with this change, for all the reasons Exemplar pointed out.

In my opinion, HotR has to remain either a spell on the same cd as CS or there has to be another way of on demand, non-dot AoE.

Furthermore, as Exemplar rightly brings up, HotR has still it's clunky way of execution (compare with Thunderclap, Pestilence (with which Blood Boil has been merged), Swipe, which require as far as I know no target, and Dizzying Haze which can be targeted and is almost always available on a 40 yard range)

 

I am still in favor of removing/merging all the seals where it makes sense and/or integrate functionality as a passive/glyph for respective specs, for example: slow from Seal of Justice as a glyph, or as a weaker passive, with a glyph to upgrade.

Edited by Tobrexa

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I think it's the opposite of dumbing down.  It requires additional micromanagement to use most effectively. It is requiring 2 GCD to move between single target and AOE.

I suppose I phrased that badly. What I mean is it's Blizz telling you "you want to AoE? Only thing you can do is push that button (SoR)". I can't decide to keep SoT & use HotR, because HotR no longer exists as a separate spell.

 

Good point about the extra GCD required as well though.

 

All this without fixing the issue where you must have a target and the target must be in range/facing/etc for HotR to engage.

Agreed. HotR being its own spell & basically a HP-generating version of Divine Storm would be much better (ie, no target required etc).

 

It continues to amuse me how Ret Paladin went from king-of-incidental-AOE in Wrath to struggles-to-AOE by Mists.

I still miss those days :( .

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Okay, looks like the Seal of Righteousness / HotR change may not be happening after all. Also, maybe not the loss of self-healing / haste for SoI, though I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

-Flash of Light costs 23% base mana, down from 37%.

-WoG scales with 103.76% SP, up from 72.63%. Harsh Words scales the same (was 73%). EF scales the same, with the HoT scaling with 9.43% SP (was 6.6%).

 

-Holy Prism scales with 141.86% SP for damage, and 210.5% SP for healing. Down from 334% & 495% respectively. Also costs 17% base mana.

-Execution Sentence costs 12.8% base mana. Damage is now 674.2% SP, down from 1586.5%, for both healing & DPS.

-Light's Hammer costs 51.9% base mana, scales with 47.34% SP, down from 111.4%.

 

-Sanctified Wrath will continue to buff wings for Holy & Ret, and will buff GoAK for Prot. No details yet though.

 

Looking at these changes, I *think* the mana costs for the L90 talents are probably for Holy only. This patch contained a lot of healing mana cost changes (all reductions too), so I think what we're seeing is Blizz trying to make the L90 talents fit in better with Holy's cheaper toolkit. Course I could be totally wrong & Ret/Prot will have to dump over half their mana to cast Light's Hammer, but I think that would be a bit extreme.

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Light's Hammer gets hit especially hard on the mana cost. Bumping up Prot/Ret mana regen won't be the solution, as it'll get very close to allowing us to spam endless Flashes of Light, which can have all kinds of bad results on PvP and perhaps some PvE encounters. It'll likely be holy only changes, else we'll be pigeonholed into Execution Sentence, since it's the lowest mana requirement. Admittedly, Light's Hammer is currently quite strong in the hands of a prot pala with a lot of vengeance, so they might not want prots to cast Light's Hammer every minute, but they could easily have resolve not affect our T90 abilities.

 

What do people think of the sealweave talent? Sealweaving basically adds 3 spells to our active rotation, while removing none for prot and only inq for ret. It's going to be even more of a button clutter. But since it's the more skill driven talent of the three, it's likely the one ending up as the best, and then becoming mandatory to everyone that wants to perform as best as possible.

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At first glance, it doesn't look very fun.  They removed Inquisition because it was "too hard" for players to maintain, but they added Empowered Seals instead, which will be way more difficult.  Seal twisting was fun when we had far fewer buttons to push, and we spent more than half of the time just autoattacking while waiting for abilities' cooldowns to expire.  We now have a much more active rotation with few GCDs to spend changing seals, so maintaining the buffs will be very tedious.  I suspect that the ability will also create new haste breakpoints, where adding X amount of haste allows you to fit in one more ability before having to change seals and judging to refresh the buff.

 

The holy power cost on Seraphim looks tedious as well, and I'd argue that the 30 second cooldown is enough.  I'd rather see them remove the holy power cost and slightly lower the 30% effect or the duration of the effect to compensate for the extra TVs that we'll get from 5 extra holy power.

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The difference between Empowered Seals and Inquisition is that EmpSeals is a choice. It's likely the best option, but not much better than Final Verdict, so people that don't want all the hassle of seal weaving don't have to bother with it, and not fall much behind. Not using Inquisition was a much bigger loss.

 

Yeah, I remember sealweaving in vanilla/tbc. It wasn't too bad back then, but we didn't have much else to press, so it wasn't too much of a burden. Now it's a talent that adds 3 additional buttons to our rotation.

 

Good point about haste breakpoints. Seraphim also suffers from it, as there will be haste breakpoints when your 7th, 8th and 9th button fall within.

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Seraphim continues to feel unwieldy.  As pointed out in some tweets, lately, if you pop Seraphim then your CD (i.e. AW), your CD gets the Readiness bonus.  Thus more overall CD usage.  I think the 5 HP requirement is for PvP purposes to make it slightly harder to use repeated short burst windows.  Still makes it painful for PvE purposes and some other PvP balancer would be pleasant.  Using a 5 HP ability without wasting GCD, delaying HP generators, or mistiming a CD (ooops, hit it before Seraphim, no Readiness boost) isn't tuned to the player of average skill.

 

I'd suspect that Seraphim is nice in Blizzard's view, because it could drastically change stat weights.  Seraphim users would want X > Y > Z, while non-Seraphim could want Y > Z > X or some such.

 

Seal Twisting makes a lot more sense in a no Sanctity of Battle world, when Haste gave us free GCD.  Currently as you gain Haste, you immediately fill any newly freed time with another attack as ability CDs are shortened.  I suspect in absolute terms Sealtwisting would be top DPS by a mile, but in subjective terms it becomes a narrow margin just for those top-skill paladins.  Basically you'd have to give up a specific attack every so frequently to twist seal, so you're gaining the passive benefits in exchange for losing, say, a CS (and 1 HP) every set period.  Over the course of a fight you'd lose X CS (or whatever) and HP (thus a few TV), but gain your second (or third) passive Seal buff.  + buff - attacks = bonus slightly > Seraphim or Final Verdict.

 

Sadly, I see Final Verdict the "must use" for the average skilled player (using Seraphim or Empowered Seals to most benefit would not be a casual task).  Seems odd to have two "high skill" talents and one "low skill" talent.

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I'm not too sure about that. If there were two low skill talents, someone would math out which low skill talent was better, and people would use that, or if the numbers were close, people would be told to sim both options and base their choice upon the results. Might just as well save people the math and have only one low skill talent.

 

We'll have to wait and see what the numbers are, but it's very likely that Final Verdict will be a solid and decent choice for most players, whereas EmpSeals and Seraphim will have a slight advantage in the hands of skilled players.

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Which is exactly what will happen with the high-skill talents.  We'll crunch numbers, declare a straight winner or advise to how to determine your result from a sim.  It's a sad truth of talents that directly increase damage.  The L90 tier at least has the benefit of an AOE-winner and a single target-winner (and the ever ignored Holy Prism).

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Holy Prism serves some use for Prot Paladins that need snap aggro. :P

 

You can't numbercrunch EmpSeals and Seraphim as well as most other DPS increasing talents, as they are very playerskill dependant. Sure, if you're confident about pulling them off, then whichever SimC tells you is the best is the best for you. But for a lot of players this is a trap.

 

I can very well see EmpSeals coming out on top on paper. A lot of players will then take the talent, and maybe do the better numbers on a training dummy, but lose the focus during an actual raid and drop in DPS, or perhaps fail on mechanics, because their rotation demands all their attention.

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http://www.frenzywow.com/forum/m/11237615/viewthread/12410056-titans-guide-to-wod-ret-paladin-alpha-notes

 

My thoughts on the upcoming changes to ret from when the Alpha Notes first came out! Note some information is outdated, eg does not include the changes to seals whereby HotR is only available in seal of righteousness and replaces cs, etc

 

-Titan

https://www.facebook.com/Titanfrostmourne

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Didn't they say they were going to undo that change to HotR?

 

Overall, keep in mind they haven't played the numbers game yet. Since Final Verdict is by far the easiest of the three talents, it stands to reason that both other talents have the potential to be a tiny gain.

 

If I'm not mistaken with the above statement, then the difference between a good and a great player should become more obvious. A good player could stick with Final Verdict and pull of decent numbers. A great player could pick up Empowered Seals and pull better numbers.

 

The thing about Empowered Seals VS Inquisition is that Inquisition is mandatory for all ret palas, whereas Empowered Seals is a talent, and thus a choice.

 

As for the huge macro, you'd probably still macro your AW to any on use trinkets, but such macros are exactly the point why they want to scrap the additional CDs.

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Yay for more changes. Looks like Blizz have started looking at numbers.

 

-Censure does less damage for Holy & Ret (25.7% SP, from 39%)

-Crusader Strike damage up from 95% to 100% weapon damage.

-Hammer of the Righteous damage up from 95% to 100% weapon damage.

-Execution Sentence damage down to 914.2% SP, from 1,041.5% SP.

-Hammer of Wrath damage down to 211.2% SP, from 320%.

 

-Holy Prism damage down to 165% SP, from 348%.

-Judgement does 50.21% SP damage, from 57%. Physical Vulnerability is now 5% for 30 secs, up from 4%.

-Seal of Insight gives Rets +5% healing & a chance to heal for 23.6% AP + 23.6% SP. Same for Prot, 6% more AP & SP for Holy.

-Seal of Truth weapon damage down to 12% from 18%.

-Light's Hammer does 51.68% SP, down from 78.3%.

 

-Turn Evil now has a 1.7sec cast time, down from 1.8 secs.

-Repentance now has a 1.7sec cast time, down from 1.8 secs.

 

-Empowered Seals buffed: Justice gives 20% movement speed, Insight 5% max health per 2 secs, Righteousness 30% attack speed, and Truth 15% attack power, all for 20 secs.

-Final Verdict buffed: 280% weapon damage as Holy, from 210%.

 

-Prot gains parry from crit chance, 1:1 ratio.

-Avenging Wrath for Holy gives +100% healing, 20% haste, 20% crit, 20% damage. Also picks up the kids from school.

 

-Divine Storm does 50% weapon damage, down from 75%.

-Art of War's 20% Exo reset proc folded into Exorcism itself.

-Seal of Justice damage down to 10% from 15% weapon damage.

-Sword of Light keeps the Live hotfix, buffing WoG by 60%, up from 30%.

-Templar's Verdict damage down to 185%, from 210%.

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New datamined changes are on MMOC.  It looks like Blizzard is doing preliminary damage tuning.  The most notable changes that I saw are:
- AW now gives 20% crit in addition to 20% damage for ret (see https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/469351114010161152)

- Final Verdict now does 280% weapon damage as holy

- All aspects of Empowered Seals were buffed.

 

With the damage adjustments, DS is now doing 50% weapon damage as holy, TV is doing 185% weapon damage as physical, and Final Verdict is doing 280% weapon damage as holy.  Even if Final Verdict is on par with Empowered Seals and Seraphim on single target damage, it will surely fall behind them on AoE.  If you pick up FV as your level 100 talent, it will take at least 6 targets for DS to pull ahead of FV.  You'd be better off taking one of the other two talents on AoE fights.

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Some more numbers...

 

-Flash of Light nerfed to 185.3% SP, down from 218%.

-Word of Glory nerfed to 88.2% SP, down from 103.7%.

-Holy Prism damage nerfed to 120.58%, down from 141.86%. Healing down to 178.93% from 210.5%.

-Supplication changed: now gives +100% FoL healing and +50% crit chance, instead of just a guaranteed crit.

-Eternal Flame heals every 2 secs for 20 secs, down from every 3 secs for 30 secs. Direct heal is the same as WoG, but HoT is up from 9.43% SP to 16.03% SP.

 

-Holy Shield lets you block spells.

-Light's Hammer healing nerfed to 40.24%, down from 47.34%.

 

Plus a bunch of similar healing nerfs for Holy's dedicated healing spells.

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Major changes to WoD stats incoming:

 

-Amplify is gone. Expect to see on trinkets perhaps, as in SoO.

-Readiness is gone. Expect to see on trinkets perhaps, as in SoO.

 

-In their place is Versatility: +1% damage, healing, absorbs and +0.5% damage reduction. The plan is for it to be a good secondary stat, but (hopefully) never the best one. Also useful for hybrid-y hybrid classes/specs obviously, and I guess a top stat (THE top stat?) in PvP.

 

-In addition, the tertiary/minor Cleave stat is currently going to be retired, but may yet make it in.

 

 

Bit worrying that they announce these changes so late in the day (come on guys, don't you have spreadsheets & theorycrafting sessions earlier in the dev process :P ?), but better than nothing I suppose.

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Time for a few Ret set bonuses:

 

-PvP 2pc: 50% shorter CC duration when Avenging Wrath is active.

-PvP 4pc: Gain 1% damage & healing per HP spent for 8 secs (passive).

 

-T17 2pc: +10% CS damage.

-T17 4pc: Using TV or DS gives you +5% damage for 5 secs.

 

In other news, Seraphim increases Versatility instead of Readiness. Each spec also gets +5% of 1 stat from all sources: Holy gets +5% crit stat, Prot gets +5% Haste stat, Ret gets +5% Mastery stat.

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A few more changes...

 

-Judgements of the Bold removed. The HP generated is folded into the base spell for Rets (but no more debuffing from it). Also Holy gets free Judgements.

-Tower of Radiance folded into Bacon of Light.

-Holy pallies have lost Seals of Righteousness & Truth.

-Sanctity Aura returns! It's a passive that grants 3% Versatility to the Ret pally & all allies within 100 yards. This buff is also brought by Arms & Fury warriors (Inspiring Presence), Frost & Unholy DKs (Unholy Aura), and Druids (MotW). Not sure why it's MotW but not BoK, but we'll see, maybe it's just a temporary thing.

-Spell Haste & Attack Speed Haste have been merged into one buff.

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Ret T17 bonuses updated:

 

-2pc: Judgement has a chance to deal 10% of the total damage of your Censure damage to the target (says 101% chance ATM :P ).

-4pc: TV & DS have a 30% chance to let you use HoW regardless of the target's health (same buff name - Crusader's Fury).

 

In other news, Crusader Strike & HotR have lost their flat bonus damage. Also, Judgement of Insight (from Empowered Seals) only heals you for 3% of your max health (down from 5%) each time. Our multistrikes proc the Hand of Light Mastery (including the multistrikes from DS & HotR), and finally the tooltip for Sword of Light has been heavily reduced in length, but I can't see any actual changes to its effects listed.

 

What else... we're also getting Flasks for secondary stats it seems - 109 armour / crit / haste / mastery / multi-strike, plus spirit & stamina. May be an interesting direction to take flasks in WoD, instead of the usual Str/Agi/Int model we've had up until now, although it could to get very expensive for top end raiders if they have to use a new flask regularly to min/max for fights.

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Some minor changes for Rets:

 

-Harsh Words damage up from 88.2% SP to 264.59% SP.

-Word of Glory healing up from 88.2% SP to 264.59% SP.

-Divine Purpose appears to no longer have any duration, based on the tooltip.

 

Most of the rest seems to be wording changes.

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Looks like they changed the 4pc to be the 2pc and created a new 4pc
 
Paladin T17 Retribution 2P Bonus
Using Templar's Verdict or Divine Storm has a 30% chance to empower you with Crusader's Fury.
Crusader's Fury allows the use of Hammer of Wrath regardless of your target's current health.
 

Paladin T17 Retribution 4P Bonus
Hammer of Wrath causes your next Exorcism to generate 3 Holy Power.

Edited by Shando

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Can't say I like that 4pc very much. Even ignoring the difference in cooldowns, it seems a bit clunky to have to cast one spell so as to get a benefit from a second like that.

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Neither is very likeable.

 

At least they're a conscious attempt to shake up the priority.  Unfortunately it shows a woeful ignorance of Sanctified Wrath and Holy Avenger.  The first already provides the 2 piece bonus for its duration, and the second provides a hyper-amplified version of the 4 piece bonus for its duration.  Pretty sure 4 piece will make SW automatically the superior talent (if it isn't, already).

 

It's also cumbersome - either Exorcism remains a "filler" spell at lowest damage per cast (like present tier), or its damage is (relatively) increased, causing us to want to use it ASAP in order for more chances to proc the reset.  If we want to immediately place it on CD to proc the reset, that directly conflicts with trying to use it specifically after HoW.  Under 20% you want to match a 15 sec CD (with random resets) and a 6 sec CD - that doesn't gel well.

 

Also 2 piece becomes completely useless under 20% (or during AW if you use SW).  So between the two for roughly 30% of every fight you always have the effects.  I can almost feel a cue for a gimmick boss who starts at '20% max health' (which is equal to other bosses full health).

 

I'm first to acknowledge it's hard to come up with new set bonuses, but these don't seem to carry the standard 2.5%/5% total damage increase one historically expects from the bonuses.

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Another thing to consider with the "usefulness" of this 2p is the perk for HoW, which makes it usable at 35%... seems to be even more lackluster, because you figure on a 7 minute fight where you're getting 4 uses of wings, you're making the availability of this perk less than 50%? Unless of course I missed something and that perk was taken out.

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