Charybdis

Warlords of Draenor paladin discussion

78 posts in this topic

I'm first to acknowledge it's hard to come up with new set bonuses, but these don't seem to carry the standard 2.5%/5% total damage increase one historically expects from the bonuses.

 

Yeah... honestly, would it really be so bad to recycle a few older set bonuses? Just going over the set bonuses for Rets on Wowhead ATM. We've had lots of both flat and % damage buffs in the past, and whilst boring, they do at least have the advantage of working. Plus there've been quite a few more interesting ones - CD reductions and the like, which might help shake up the rotation a bit too. Heck, if they want us to use Exo more they could double the proc chance for it to reset as a 2pc, then buff its damage as a 4pc.

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 Heck, if they want us to use Exo more they could double the proc chance for it to reset as a 2pc, then buff its damage as a 4pc.

I'd immediately spitball "bonus damage when AoW procs", so you want it normally on CD so you get the AoW early version.

 

Or, hell, play around with the new stats.  2 or 4piece gives ability X a Y% (additional) multistrike chance.

 

TerellinMisha - I hadn't even thought of perks.  If it's still 35%, then 35% + 16% uptime on Wings does lead close to 50% (some Wings are under the 35% border, so it's probably closer to 45%).  That does indeed make the 2 piece bonus sound rather pathetic.

 

Oh, forgot to mention, if the 4piece is as responsive as past "bonus HP" procs, you've probably hit another button or two before your client even knows you gained the 3 HP.  So you could go past 5, depending on how you let HP pool, or you could be sitting out a GCD or so waiting for your client to acknowledge the HP so it will permit the TV you want to be pressing.

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A few more minor updates for Rets:

 

-T16 bonus is now when you *cast* Exorcism, not when AoW activates.

-The WoD 2pc PvP bonus is now CC reduction for 15 secs when you cast Avenging Wrath (was whilst AW was active).

 

-Seraphim buffed from 30% of your secondary gear stats to 50% of them.

-Final Verdict does 50% of its damage to enemies near the target when you have SoR active.

 

Prot also finally gets a proper Sanctified Wrath, with +100% Holy Wrath damage, and HP generated from Holy Wrath too.

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By the way, I believe I have Ret and Prot up-to-date in the wod branch of simcraft. If you guys want to do some testing with it and/or look for bugs, feel free. You'll find dated alpha builds here:

 

http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D

 

Some notes: T17 profiles use the ilvl 660 PvP realm premade gear, because that's the only L100 gear we had last time I updated them. There have been minor tweaks to the prot and ret APLs, but they've in no way been re-optimized post-squish. So feel free to make suggestions and I'll tweak the default APL / profiles.

 

Also, I've coded Final Verdict cleave (when SoRighteousness active) the way it appears it should work based on the tooltip. In other words, hits the primary target for 100% damage, hits all other targets for 50%. On beta, it was working slightly differently: the cleave was happening with any seal active, but when SoR was active the primary target also only took 50%. I'm pretty sure that's just buggy behavior though.

 

Right now it triggers hand of light on each target, so the sim replicates that behavior. In my testing, it also procced Seal of Insight on every target, but not Seal of Righteousness. I suspect that it shouldn't be proccing anything and the SoI procs I was seeing were unintentional. But for the moment, the cleave is proccing all seals (even SoR) in SimC until we determine the appropriate behavior.

 

FYI, I also plan on creating some batch processing scripts for protection, much like my old matlab sims but almost entirely in simc. Once I have the code written for those, it should be easy enough to extend to other specs or even classes (indeed, that's the long-term goal).

Edited by Theck

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Small update - Blinding Light is back in, as a CC talent, in place of Evil is a Point of View.

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In the next build we get a free Dp (100% Wpd instead of 50% wpd) after a succesful Final verdict, Blizz said it should´nt be good for single target rotation but I think it could be better if we weave the dp in our rotation and dont get any haste from gear, only mastery/multistrike.

 

The extra dp nonetheless, lowers our haste focus I think.  (I like haste, but more buttons too)

Edited by Gothmor

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Some more changes:

 

-Seal of Insight just heals for a flat 16% SP now, down from 23.6% AP + 23.6% SP. Seems to be the same for all specs too.

 

-Can confirm the above change for Final Verdict: it makes your next Divine Storm do 100% more damage and have double its normal radius.

 

-Various healing spells and effects (including Glyph of Protector of the Innocent) now work with multistrikes.

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More changes...

 

-Censure does 30.9% SP over 15 secs, up from 25.7%.

-Crusader Strike does 120% weapon damage, up from 100%.

-Hammer of the Righteous does 42% weapon damage (up from 35%) plus 24% AoE weapon damage (up from 20%).

 

-Judgement does (1+ 60.25% SP + 72.36% AP) damage, up from (1 + 50.21% SP + 60.3% AP) damage.

-New Perk: HP consumers have a 25% chance to make your next Divine Storm free & deal 50% more damage.

-Empowered Seals healing from Judgement of Insight nerfed from 3% to 1%.

 

-Supplication changed: now has +50% Flash of Light healing (was 100%) and +100% crit chance (was 50%).

-Exorcism does (1 + 140.52% AP) damage, up from (1 + 117.1% AP) damage.

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I guess with these new changes empowered seals and seraphim are rendered totally useless... not used SimC yet but I don't think changing seals (wasting GCDs) for an additional 15% AP and 30% iAS or a 5HP consumer every 30 secs can ever challenge having all TV damage as holy plus 100% dmg increase in the next DS, which is free.

 

It's a shame but I guess we won't have that many buttons in our priority list. The only way for another talent to be useful I can think of is maybe using Holy Avenger+Seraphim for bosses with a high damage burst needed every 1-2 minutes

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I guess with these new changes empowered seals and seraphim are rendered totally useless... not used SimC yet but I don't think changing seals (wasting GCDs) for an additional 15% AP and 30% iAS or a 5HP consumer every 30 secs can ever challenge having all TV damage as holy plus 100% dmg increase in the next DS, which is free.

 

It's a shame but I guess we won't have that many buttons in our priority list. The only way for another talent to be useful I can think of is maybe using Holy Avenger+Seraphim for bosses with a high damage burst needed every 1-2 minutes

Can you explain yourself further, 3% healing nerfed to 1% is the major change recently to the end tier talents and sealtwisting has been said to be the top dmg and not talking about t17 bonuses

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Can you explain yourself further, 3% healing nerfed to 1% is the major change recently to the end tier talents and sealtwisting has been said to be the top dmg and not talking about t17 bonuses

 

I meant the changes made three days ago, Having HP consumers give us an extra DS with 50% dmg increase and no cost should probably make Final Verdict actually better than sealtwisting, since Final Verdict already gives a 100% dmg increase to DS which couldn't be properly used previously

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I meant the changes made three days ago, Having HP consumers give us an extra DS with 50% dmg increase and no cost should probably make Final Verdict actually better than sealtwisting, since Final Verdict already gives a 100% dmg increase to DS which couldn't be properly used previously

But it doesnt make the proc empovered, only the ds after tv strike, so i dont get why fv would be stronger even wtih our t16 proc brought to alive in wod, would like some numbers to backup this

Edited by Konke

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Couple of changes - Empowered Seals gives 10% haste, not 30% attack speed, and Seraphim is now giving a flat 1,500 rating to the various stats it buffed, instead of +50%.

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in my best sims i make over 10 mins 32k with sw+fv 31k with dp+fv, heard dp+ fv should be better all other combinations arent as good, for pvp best burst is seraphim+Ha.

 

But prot is better by far, with Seraphim+sw i make 53k dps and you rock all things in pvp

 

same for aoe

 

(all in 660 pvp gear, haste enchanted, selfbuffed)

Edited by Gothmor

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A few more changes, looks like a damage pass, especially for Ret:

 

-Censure damage down from 30.18% SP to 6.18% SP over 15 secs, stacking up to 5 times.

-Seems Crusader Strike & HotR no longer give HP for Holy & Prot (!). Datamining error perhaps?

-Word of Glory has a 1.5sec cast, 1sec CD. Hoping this is just a change for Holy, because it'll hurt Ret & Prot a lot otherwise.

-Execution Sentence healing is big initial burst, then progressively less.

 

-Final Verdict damage nerfed to the ground, from 280% to 185% weapon damage. Call it a 1/3 damage nerf, but brings it into line with TV (185% WD). Ouch.

-Light's Hammer heals up to 6 allies only.

-Sacred Shield buffed for Ret, absorbing (1 + 186.6% SP), up from (1 + 130.6% SP) for Holy/Prot.

-Sword of Light nerfed a bit for Ret - was 30%, now 25%.

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A few more changes, looks like a damage pass, especially for Ret:

 

-Censure damage down from 30.18% SP to 6.18% SP over 15 secs, stacking up to 5 times.

-Seems Crusader Strike & HotR no longer give HP for Holy & Prot (!). Datamining error perhaps?

-Word of Glory has a 1.5sec cast, 1sec CD. Hoping this is just a change for Holy, because it'll hurt Ret & Prot a lot otherwise.

-Execution Sentence healing is big initial burst, then progressively less.

 

-Final Verdict damage nerfed to the ground, from 280% to 185% weapon damage. Call it a 1/3 damage nerf, but brings it into line with TV (185% WD). Ouch.

-Light's Hammer heals up to 6 allies only.

-Sacred Shield buffed for Ret, absorbing (1 + 186.6% SP), up from (1 + 130.6% SP) for Holy/Prot.

-Sword of Light nerfed a bit for Ret - was 30%, now 25%.

 

I tend to prefer not giving specific numbers for specs since this is a general WoD thread, but I'll go through some of those.

 

Censure damage is just tuning it seems, and will be subject to change anyway.  We'll see how the official notes go along with in game analysis.

I can see CS not generating HoPo for Holy, but it's definitely a datamining error if Prot isn't getting it.

WoG is base cast 1.5 seconds until paladins choose a spec.  Prot and Ret will both get abilities that make it instant, but of course Holy won't because Blizzard wants to nerf our mobility.

ES needed that burst up front to be a more worthwhile healing CD, so it's good to me.

 

Final Verdict is still holy damage, which means it will steal deal more damage than TV's physical due to ignoring armor.  But it certainly does suck that it got nerfed so hard.

LH only healing a certain number has been in place since MoP 5.4 I believe.  I hate how they've done it that way when 20-man Mythics will surely require more AoE.

SS buff might be interesting I suppose, but we'll have to see if it feels worthwhile to cast it as Ret.

SoL change was supposedly due to Ret doing too much damage.  This next tuning pass will supposedly bring specs "close" to where they should be, but I'm wondering if they mean "close" like they mean "soon," which means they might think it's alright but the community will likely call bullshit.

Edited by Charybdis

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Final Verdict is still holy damage, which means it will steal deal more damage than TV's physical due to ignoring armor.  But it certainly does suck that it got nerfed so hard.

...

This next tuning pass will supposedly bring specs "close" to where they should be, but I'm wondering if they mean "close" like they mean "soon," which means they might think it's alright but the community will likely call bullshit.

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13841994636

 

^ "This build (and next one for healers) should be solid enough for theorycrafters to start really tearing into"...

 

I think what concerns me most with the L100 talents is not so much FV getting nerfed (hey, it's still a DPS increase over TV after all), but how the 3 talents compare to one another. I really don't like Seraphim (especially with it costing 5HP), and Empowered Seals is interesting but frankly rather clunky for my liking, so I'm hoping that if there is a winner, it's at least close to the other two so people won't feel forced to pick a particular one.

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Patch 6.0.2 Ret changes:

 

-Sword of Light down to 15%.

-FoL heals for 250% SP, up from 222.36%.

-Selfless Healer buffed to +35% healing per stack, from +20%.

 

-Eternal Flame's HoT nerfed to 10% SP from 16.03%.

-Judgement damage nerfed to (1 + 48% SP + 58% AP), from (1 + 60.25% SP + 72.36% AP).

-CS nerfed to 100% weapon damage, from 120%. Also says the same for HotR, though last I checked that was 42% (and 24% AoE) weapon damage anyway :P .

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Recent tweet (can't link it on mobile phone) from celestalon seems to imply that the talent Emp. Seals is here to stay... I still think it is very bad design for all the reasons we stated already in this post. Same goes for Seraphim although to a lesser degree.

Edited by Tobrexa

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For me, and I suspect a lot of other players, it'll come down to how well they work for DPS purposes. Certainly I don't like Seraphim (just the 5HP cost is bad enough in my books), and Empowered Seals is going to be clunky, but if either has a clear lead on FV in terms of DPS... yeah... that'll be a problem.

 

A small difference isn't too bad in my mind - fights are rarely Patchwerk-style affairs, and I think there's something to be said for being able to focus less on your rotation/buffs and more on the environment etc during a boss fight, but the larger the difference between Emp. Seals / Seraphim and FV, the harder it gets to justify using FV.

 

Edit: T17 2pc is also nerfed from 30% to 20% chance to use HoW regardless of target health when spending HP. Ret & Prot back to just +20% healing per Selfless Healer buff. Sword of Light back up to 25% bonus damage.

Edited by Teleros

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Latest patch has some nerfs to Prot, main thing for Rets though is that Divine Protection lasts 8secs, down from 10secs.

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Build 18967 has the following for Ret...

 

-Seal of Righteousness up from 5% to 12% weapon damage.

-Light's Hammer gets ~66% buff to damage & healing.

-Holy Prism gets ~200% buff to damage & healing.

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SoR tweak is major quality of life improvement.  SoR pulls ahead of SoT immediately at 2 targets.  Seal Twisting would be a bit easier - you wouldn't have weaker seal procs while SoR is up.  You have the full Censure window to judge and swap back, since SoR proc should match SoT proc.

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