MysticalOS

Warlords of Draenor rogue discussion

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Rules will be enforced less strictly in this thread.  Hopefully people will be mature and contribute and I won't have to moderate here at all.  Things that are specifically allowed here but not elsewhere include wishlisting, armchair design, feelings and reactions, conjecture, and opinion.  Discussion is as always open to theorycrafting and game play, but things like art that are normally off topic are also included.

 

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This thread will be locked at the end of the beta when the expansion goes live.  Have fun!

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Enhanced Adrenaline Rush: While Adrenaline Rush is active, the global cooldown on Sinister Strike, Revealing Strike, Eviscerate, Slice and Dice, and Rupture is reduced by an additional 0.3 sec.

 

Interesting how they're returning to this with a perk. Wasn't the 0.5s GCD causing problems when they last used it as the T15 4-set bonus? I remember the game not responding quickly enough to what I was doing and eventually losing some combo points here and there. I must admit, though, that it was a very enjoyable experience to have this bonus nonetheless! Quite curious whether it'll make it to live.

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Combo point will finally be on the rogue (and thus Redirect is gone).

 

I think it should help us a bit on intensive-target-switching fight (Horridon?). Nonetheless, the T90 row could be reworked since MfD was intended to help on those very fights, ST is really only viable on PVP and Anticipation is a must-have. Making Anticipation baseling would be logical now that even ShadowPriests may store additional Orbs than they can consume.

 

The change to BG in Combat spec is also nice and help us controlling our burst but will it really be useful? I mean, realistically you won't be waiting that much for you Deep Insight or you'd lose some use of it along an encounter, woundn't you?

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I think there are better ways to implement control over BG. Using RvS to delay insight doesn't make a whole lot of sense thematically; looking at it you'd think that a revealing strike would grant you greater insight. What's more, with deep insight being 50% more damage, it's not something you'd feel good about delaying. So I'd rather see RvS remade to have charges, and be used to advance insight levels.

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Interesting how they're returning to this with a perk. Wasn't the 0.5s GCD causing problems when they last used it as the T15 4-set bonus?

It will be less of a problem without Shadow Blades now. Shadow Blades caused higher APM through more frequent Eviscerates instead of Sinister Strikes, less energy cost per gcd, etc.

It will be worse than it was in Cata, but not as bad as Mists.

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I like all the changes to Assassination, both to AoE and Single-target rotations, except "Improved Venomous Wounds". I like "Empowered Envenom" and "Enhanced Envenom" a lot because they will make it so that Envenom uptime will be even more important, which is a very good thing. It will hopefully raise the skill cap of the spec a bit.

 

But "Improved Venomous Wounds", by removing the RNG factor in our Energy Regen, will make it quite easier to delay Envenom, and therefore to optimize Envenom uptime; So while the changes make the potential DPS gain of playing well higher, they may make the spec a bit too easy to play well.

 

If anything, I'd like to see the RNG factor of "Venomous Wounds" to be maximized to a 50% chance to proc (and a higher Energy gain to compensate), or maybe the ticks of Rupture/Garrote to be less frequent (and again, a higher Energy gain to compensate), with the same effect.

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That'd just mean that you'd pool less energy. I don't really see how it would make the spec any harder to play.

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I've already implemented somewhere over half of the Warlords alpha changes to 6.0 Shadowcraft (not all are pushed to github). I'm using the combat script as a base for debug purposes, and then propagating to the other two specs. I have no idea if some of these things are additive or multiplicative right now, but I'm giving them best guesses for the moment.

Once beta is underway, not F&F alpha or whatever, I'll open up a different thread specifically about testing mechanics. Things like determining how formulas operate, what abilities are affected by what, etc. Basically the same thing as Mists Mechanics Testing.

Two thing that are interesting so far. One is that Restless Blades (which I believe is still in Warlords?) is causing readiness to have increasing returns. The second is that, as things stand now, energy generation will scale faster in Warlords than it ever has previously. That's not exactly a direct relationship to APM, but it is a component.

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"Premeditation is no longer an active ability. Instead your Garrote and Ambush always generate 2 additional combo points when used from Stealth. This affect does not apply while Shadow Dance is active."

 

Anyone else notice that is subtlety perk is actually a nerf?

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That'd just mean that you'd pool less energy. I don't really see how it would make the spec any harder to play.

 

Well you'd have a choice between pooling less energy to prevent energy capping with certainty or to pool more energy  to better optimize envenom uptime. The choice has always been there but the more predictible the energy regen, the easier the choice. Anyway, I guess there are a lot of ways to improve on Assassination's rotation. My take is that playing Assassination well should be about perfect rhythm and timing (whereas playing Combat well should be about perfect instant decisions). Thinking about it, I guess predictible energy regen actually makes for a smoother rotation, and actually improves this rhythmic vibe I was talking about. Oh well.... :-)

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Did I miss something or do combat rogues in WoD have not a single DoT(besides Garrote), hence beeing unable in PvP to unstealth other rogues who they fought with recently?

I am imagining a sub rogue vs a combat rogue - damage aside - the sub rogue will always be able to just flee forever if he gets an vanish off. If the combat rogue tries that, he'll get unstealthed after just a few seconds potentially beeing vulnerable to Deadly Throw or other spells. I mean: You can get unstealthed now, too. But as a combat you won't be able to do that to other rogues. Feels slightly odd.

 

 

Also did you guys notice, that they pulled the stealth effect from the Subterfuge talent because of its OP'ness, but then randomly decided to try and give hunters a Camouflage which breaks 6 seconds AFTER dealing or receiving damage(6 seconds AFTER dealing or receiving damage). I hope Holinka jumps to the rescue and stops this madness. https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/453431706742038528

Edited by Nevernite
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kk, my little ranting comment got deleted(rightfully so), but for the people who missed it:

Combat Rogues get the Enhanced Blade Flurry perk which voids Blade Flurry's target cap.

Downside to this is, Combat Rogues now lose Fan of Knives which is reserved only for the two other specs Assassination and Subtlety.

However this is just datamining and not official, but I think Blizzard will pull through with it.

 

It may be competitive in raid AoE damage situations, but if you are doing other things in WoW like low level content you can run through (without stopping) and spam FoK which also has quite a good range and damages enemies quite a few meters/yards away from you.  Can't do this anymore. For Enh. BF you have to stop, go into melee range, target a mob and use more expensive combo point builders.

 

Also now the combat spec lost its last ability which could be used to unstealth a cat/rogue in pvp (also, General Nazgrim rogue?)

My class knowledge overall isn't that good, but I think besides shadow priest(edit//oh they have Halo), combat rogue is the only spec now who just simply CAN'T unstealth anything in pvp anymore.

 

They are going so hard for the Swashbuckler feeling,  I wouldn't even be surprised if they scrapped stealth for combat. *jk*

 

**calming myself with the fact that the rogue builds combo points on itself, and perhaps won't play combat anyway**

Edited by Nevernite
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I'm questioning the viability of Readiness at level 90 with the datamined data we have now. The current datamined values sit at 1% = 23 rating. 2/2 AoC will have 99 rating (4.304%). Due to breakpoints, you will have to gear up another 15.7% (362 rating) before you can get another CoS during a 300s fight.

wolframalpha

Vendetta and Adrenaline Rush fair somewhat worse due to their longer CDs. Due to how vendetta fits into a 300s fight, it only needs 20% Readiness for one additional use, but each subsequent Vendetta requires 40% Readiness (920 rating). 4.3% only reduces Vendetta by ~5s, in order for this to have any significance in a fight, the fight needs to be over right before Vendetta would be cast again without the 4.3%. Basically any fight that's a multiple of 110s or within 20s below that; so 90-110s, 200-220s, 310-330s. Obviously rounded numbers, but still. That's 18% of the hypothetical fight lengths where 4.3% Readiness could even have an impact, ignoring if it's even a significant impact.

wolframalpha

In order to achieve the roughly 50% readiness from 5.4 AoC, you would need 1150 rating. This item looks to be nerfed hard. To put things into context, I'm estimating somewhere between 1000 and 1500 secondary stats at ilvl ~580 to allocate from gear/gems/etc.

This seems like it's going to be a problematic stat without some change. A stat where you only aim to hit the first breakpoint if it's small, and avoid any further stats.

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Odds and ends:

 

Did I miss something or do combat rogues in WoD have not a single DoT(besides Garrote), hence beeing unable in PvP to unstealth other rogues who they fought with recently?

 

This does appear to be their design intent with the spec: all instant damage (or near enough). I've seen a few folks who are sad about this from a PvP perspective, which surprises me a little bit considering Combat is has generally long been regarded as unviable in most competitive PvP situations anyway. So... I guess this makes a bad situation worse in specific situations? Then again, burst potential could end up being pretty amazing, depending on how they choose to balance those abilities out.

 

 

Combat Rogues get the Enhanced Blade Flurry perk which voids Blade Flurry's target cap.

Downside to this is, Combat Rogues now lose Fan of Knives which is reserved only for the two other specs Assassination and Subtlety.

However this is just datamining and not official, but I think Blizzard will pull through with it.

It's much more solid than unconfirmed datamining, but still pre-beta, so... yeah. I think you're overstating the range issue -- BF is 8 yards, FoK is 10 yards -- and if you're wildly spamming FoK without a target selected you're already gimping your damage-dealing ability, so I'm not sure I buy the low-level-inconvenience argument (besides, that's a really niche example of a downside). The removal of a major AoE destealth option is interesting, but I've never been swayed much by "but <insert class/spec> gets to do it, why can't I" arguments, since 1) classes/specs are supposed to bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table and 2) AoE destealth is primarily intended for use in group settings, where if such a thing really matters I figure you'd rather have someone fill that destealthing role much more efficiently, no?

 

 

I'm questioning the viability of Readiness at level 90 with the datamined data we have now. 

I have a general question in response to your concerns: How much does the math matter right now? In the past, when we've seen early data on relative stat weights/values in upcoming expansions, how indicative has that been of the final product? Do we have any real sense yet of how much Rness will be on gear, or what the delta is likely to be across the life of the expansion?

 

On the surface, I don't have much of an issue with Readiness in 6.0 being a nerfed version of AoC, which IMO is far too powerful -- I don't think any single piece of gear should turn a spec from "meh" to "holy crap!" or change how it feels to play a spec as deeply as that trinket does. But I agree that it'll be a bummer if the end result of Rness for rogues is that we'll aim for a gear build that gets to one specific "break point" that is likely to be of value in most raid fights, and then just not bother after that. That doesn't immediately feel to me like a fun way to gear up.

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The intention isn't to figure out what the EP of Readiness will be, or figure out how it stacks up against other stats. Just to point out an issue with how it will work with Rogues, primarily that we lack short CDs. This leads to large % values needed (40% readiness, for example) to achieve a single extra CD use. This creates massive breakpoints that dwarf the haste breakpoints that exist now. Celestalon insists it will be smooth-ish, but based on the alpha data so far, I'm not sold.

 

The second part was that people will need to think of Readiness different than they think of stats we have now. It's going to take personal work to figure out how it applies to you. By all means, it's an interesting stat that makes haste/mastery/crit look generic, it's going to require new lines of thought. 

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Did I miss something or do combat rogues in WoD have not a single DoT(besides Garrote), hence beeing unable in PvP to unstealth other rogues who they fought with recently?

 

The new level 75 talent Internal Bleeding that replaces Paralytic Poison might be useful for you.  Combined with Shadow Reflection as well!  

Shadow Reflection just looks too strong.

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Hello,

 

I have a question for combat spec:

 

Considering the fact that our first trinkets having no proc,is it better to delay our burst and use KS/AR during deep insight buff instead of opening KS/AR on start?

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With the new combo point system and empowered FoK  (and probably enhanced CT, but my rogue doesn't have this yet) I'm finally starting to do reasonable AOE as Sub.  Sitting next to a pack of adds, all it takes is 1 FoK (35 energy) to build 5 (or more) CP. For most add packs, I can just alternate FoK and CT. Depending on the pack, I've seen double (and sometimes triple) my single target DPS doing this.
 
It looks like there may be some alternative rotations using FoK for CP generation - especially when one long lived add sits in pack of little ones.

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The new level 75 talent Internal Bleeding that replaces Paralytic Poison might be useful for you.  Combined with Shadow Reflection as well!  

Shadow Reflection just looks too strong.

 

I been trying to use Internal Bleeding on HC Dungeon bosses and I noticed that the debuff don't show up. Looking at the combat log and I can't find it applied but that might be an oversight from my side as I just now only uses Notepad++ and not a real combat log tool. I'm aware of the bosses being immune to stuns but did expect the  Internal Bleeding debuff to apply a DOT vile I did attack ads and similar assignments.

Edited by Solaris1

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I've been off the game in any sort of regular fashion for a few years now - just got the expansion.  A very simple question that I'm sure is old news for everyone here, but is it still better - for combat spec - to have two fast weapons, or slow mh fast oh as in the past, DPS, being equal?  Or does it make no difference?  I know it's been changed before but I can't seem to find any definitive answer in the past couple of weeks.

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slow mh -> more sinister strike dmg, more killing spree dmg

slow oh -> more main gauche dmg, more killing spree dmg

 

Poison proc is normalized, so you don't need fast weapons for more poison procs.

Edited by Kushiina

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Poison proc is normalized, so you don't need fast weapons for more poison procs.

 

No, all poisons have a 30% chance of triggering, except for Crippling. More chances to trigger results in more procs on average.

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Hi guys, need help with one question.
What is better for assassination rogue - 2 weapon enchants on blid effect? (Shattered Hand), or 2 on Mastery? (dont remember what is name). Or maybe 1 on blid and 1 on mastery? Any calculations or posts about it?  :(  thx

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Hi guys, need help with one question.

What is better for assassination rogue - 2 weapon enchants on blid effect? (Shattered Hand), or 2 on Mastery? (dont remember what is name). Or maybe 1 on blid and 1 on mastery? Any calculations or posts about it?  :(  thx

or 2 on Multistrike, 1 on Multistrike and 1 on blid? or something else compare of enchants

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