Hamlet

[Balance] New 6.0 Rotation Discussion

42 posts in this topic

I still should get around to posting detailed math on that. Because it's so complicated, I didn't model the DoTs for now--just made a continuous estimate based on the integral of the Eclipse bonus over time (I also may have done it before the change from 30 to 40). That said, it was reasonably clear that rotational use wasn't a benefit. It's worth looking into more since we want to be pretty certain that rotational use isn't a benefit (that would be a huge pain, and they wouldn't intend it to be that way). DoTs don't help the situtation, since it makes your 20s DoT line up less well with a cycle time other than 40s.

Edited by Hamlet

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Oh, I'd missed a blue post that the Eclipse curve is going from 110*sin(t) to 105*sin(t). Still capped at 100 in either case, so they're just making the peak slightly narrower. I'll put it in the sheet soon, but it won't change much. I'm waiting to see what the conversion on Versatility is so I can replace Readiness with that.

 

He also posted that DoT DD damage is too high on alpha. Consistent with what I said above (it's technically more DPET than nukes). So we should it come down--shouldn't affect analysis too much, but might be in a better place to evaluate DoT clipping scenarios.

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Well, one second of AC gets your cycle down to 36s.  That means you can have 100% Sunfire uptime, with 10s at 50% Mastery, and 26s at 100% mastery.

 

Alternatively, if you are full of Starsurge charges, but at a bad point for Starsurge+Empowerment, 1-3s of AC could get you to a much better place.

 

I doubt that either of those is a win very often, but a Starsurge with 2s left in Solar is worth a lot less than a Starsurge at effectively 6s into Lunar (2s of AC will move you that far).

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I think he said in some forum post that they're thinking about making Empowerment last 30s. This was in response to this concern we're discussing about being forced to SS at a bad time.  The result isn't great, but it's a lot better--if you have to SS right before switching sides, you can save the buff and use it next time you cross back over the midpoint.  It will still buff 2-3 non-peak casts, but they won't be sub-50% casts.  I'm guessing that's better than doing 0 DPS for any length of time. The benefit of using Empowerment optimally is still pretty minor (the difference between using it at peak and at midpoint is 30% of 50% of your mastery bonus on the affected casts).

 

A related issue is the change of Shooting Stars from 2.5% proc rate to 5% (and disabling it on multi-dots).  That's a huge increase to the number of Starsurges you get on a single target.  If it remains this way, SS will be less about saving for peaks and more about generally using them often to stay under cap.

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A related issue is the change of Shooting Stars from 2.5% proc rate to 5% (and disabling it on multi-dots).  That's a huge increase to the number of Starsurges you get on a single target.  If it remains this way, SS will be less about saving for peaks and more about generally using them often to stay under cap.

It is hardly a buff in any scenario. If I read it correctly, previously we had 2 dots up with 2.5% chance each proccing Shooting Stars, now we have 1 dot with a 5% chance of proccing Shooting Stars (and another dot just happily ticking away). It does make the procs more reliable, but on average we won't be seeing too many more of them.

 

I am also concerned at the nerf of the Direct Damage on the dots. Yeah, it was too high before, but now we have EVEN less movement DPS. This was the reason for the original astral showers to have a ramp-up time; I'd love to see that implementation back. And the two separate dots too please (if no other way then as a glyph; I really hate not being able to apply half of my dot pressure without AC). Another thing they could to to make movement less devastating for us is to make Empowerments stack.

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I dunno where to share this with you, but to manage our dps ive found Enhanced Eclipse Bar to be FANTASTIC.

(short vid of how it works:)

 

Only thing i wonder is: Does the tick portion of our dots not snapshot eclipse at all? So the only real reason to cast it at peak is to buff the direct damage?

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I'm wondering how the damage buff provided by eclipse scales before the peak. Is there some known curve? Apologies if this is already answered, I didn't find it. I sat on a druid for years and just specced into balance the first time yesterday. Already in love! :-)

Coming from the curve question, I was wondering if I should keep up Sunfire at all costs, or if it could be worth to rather spam another wrath while on low eclipse and re-apply when nearing towards 100. (If i.e. the eclipse dmg buff scales linear, I could think of a wrath hitting harder than the dot ticks while on low eclipse)

Also, I recognized that for starsurge the time you start the cast is what makes the difference. If you're on 10 decreasing lunar and you start casting ss, which finishes casting in the sun phase, you'll get the starfire buff instead of the wrath buff. Then again, does the same apply to wrath and sf? Meaning if i precast a starfall while in sun phase, is it's dmg being calculated when i start the cast, or when it starts flying, or when it hits? Starsurge being calculated (at least "which buff to put up"-wise) at the beginning of a cast makes it impossible to precast an SS-buffed SF unless you keep the stacks from the last phase (which is not a problem either, as it's duration is long enough).

Thanks in advance. Feel free to bash me if something was already answered! :-)

zined likes this

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The Eclipse damage bonus varies linearly with Eclipse energy (which is what the bar shows).  When you have 50 Lunar energy, you have 75% of your maximum Eclipse bonus applies to Arcane spells (so, 50% bonus at midpoint, which is 0 energy, 100% bonus at peak, which is 100 energy, linearly in between).

 

The way the Eclipse energy varies with time is more complex--it's a sine curve, with a period of 40 seconds and an amplitude of 105 energy.  Actual energy is capped at 100, resulting in the brief flat part at the top that we call the "peak."

 

As far as spell timing, take a look at the guide here and see if you have more questions:

http://www.wowhead.com/guide=2165/balance-druid-guide

(I need to make a new Balance thread like I did for Resto).

 

I've noticed the SS thing too.  I think damage from Eclipse is still determined at cast end, but now I want to check (later).

Nalanara likes this

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hey

 

dont know if this has been posted anywhere yet - just logged in to check the changes and saw : you can have both empowerments active at the same time. So maybe its valid to cast SS by any means because you can safe f.e. 1 charge of lunar empowerment if youre not gonna make it in lunar for later, and proceeding SS in solar and using the stacks and solar empowerment and use that 1 lunar empowerment stack when youre back at start of lunar. maybe its a useless comment but not sure.

 

and in addition Im not that sure whether its good to redot sunfire at a peak due to its shorter uptime. I guess its better trying to squeeze another mainspell in during the period of the maximum dmg buff.( does the buff counts when cast started or finished? hope started )

Edited by Donni

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Hiho,

I just started playing WoW again, and to get back into it I'm playing around with the numbers.

 

When I cast Starfire during the Solar Eclipse, it deals exactly the amount of dmg it says in the tooltip.

Wrath on the other hand deal slightly different amounts of dmg with each cast.

 

Is this a bug ? It seems to me, that Wrath uses the "true" value of the sine function without the cap at 100. So if I finish casting wrath slightly after i hit the lunar (solar) eclipse, it deals more (less) damage than when i finish casting right during the mid of the peak.

 

I didn't test this very thoroughly, it just seemed weird to me that 1 spell should have a random component while the other doesn't.

 

Or is there any random component in Wrath that i don't know about ?

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Hi,

i would like to ask a question about lvl100 talents. As mentioned earlier here, you are recommending Ephoria talent. I was wondering why? It's very difficult to use SS buff (Solar and Lunar empowerement) effectively (hitting both SF or all three Wraths into peak) without interrupting casts. Earlier, before reduced cast time during SS buff was added, you recommended Stelar flare, but it seems to me, that it's pretty weak too (about half dps of SuF/MF, while its DPET would be even lower compared to these two because of its cast time). There is always a third option, Balace of power, but in my opinion it's the worst choice on single target damage.

 

Does anyone have any specific numbers already? Including advantages of these talents on high moving requirement fights, multitarget fights and singletarget fights?

 

How about lvl60 talents? Any news there? Is Incarnation still the best choice for patchwerk style fights?

Edited by Treen

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In 6.0, is it still beneficial to use Celestial Alignment at the lunar eclipse (100) and then just spam Moonfire?

 

Or is it better to use Celestial Alignment in the lunar eclipse (100) and use Starsurge (x1), Starfire (x2), Starsurge (x1), Starfire (x2), etc. Only reapplying Sunfire and Moonfire (by applying Moonfire) as needed?

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was it ever benficial to use CA and spam MF?

also, as tooltip shows, both spells profit from 100% eclipse bonus, regardless whether youre at 1 lunar eclipse or 100.

Or getting something horribly wrong

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was it ever benficial to use CA and spam MF?

also, as tooltip shows, both spells profit from 100% eclipse bonus, regardless whether youre at 1 lunar eclipse or 100.

Or getting something horribly wrong

 

So does Starfire and everything else. What it means is that even if you pop it in Solar, the Moonfire dot will act like it's Lunar Peak and if you pop CA in Lunar, Sunfire dot will also do the damage it does at full Solar. Only the active spell's direct damage is done though, the other one just gets its dot applied.

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yeah so you dont need to wait until youre max Lunar Eclipse to pop CA. Thats what Hotzenplotz thought.

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