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Edghar

Automated Guild Progress Ranking

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Seems to be missing some data? Multiple guilds from Sargeras that should be in the top 15 progression aren't listed at all.

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This is a really neat tool. Kudos for creating it.

I'm a transfer to my current guild (but they were ahead of me so I didn't mess things up). Once it was revealed that gear was the way he was measuring progression, of course we all jumped to the conclusion that an advanced transfer could screw things up, but I think overall those bumps will be flattened out by a guild's natural progress. If that really became a big issue then you could always do the kind of logic checking that Gwaihir above mentions, or maybe aging loot so that if a guild appears to kill Al'ar (due to a transfer) they get credit but the score for that kill decays over time until they register another kill. That way a transfer would bump up a guild's score but over time it would decay to the "real" level.

But all in all, I think those are small blemishes on what is a very interesting and informative tool. And in the end it probably works out just as well to not lose any sleep as to whether or not transfers are messing the rankings up.

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Already I see some errors. How does a guild who has killed two bosses in Black Temple have a lower ranking that a guild who's only killed Rage Winterchill?

I was looking at my guilds progression and it is accurate, but how are we ranked higher than Gentlemen's club, who killed bosses before us?

anyway, I think it's a neat idea, but due to armory being slow and loot getting sharded, or might be situational, could lead to inaccuracies.

But is probably a better and more accurate system than voluntary reporting.

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Absolutely, but unfortunately I couldn't think of a way to handle this. Perhaps I could look at disparity (most members in kara loot then some guy in T5, for example) but right now I just accept that server transfers could mess things up. Anyone have any suggestions here?

The only solution that comes to mind is to have some sort of threshold, like three people in the guild with loot from boss X before it is considered a confirmed kill. A tool like this is never going to be 100% exact, but I'm sure you could add in a few heuristics like this that will make it "good enough".

Very cool idea, thanks for sharing.

Edit: This thread is moving too fast, at least two other people already suggested this in the time it took to type it.

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A very nice site and a very cool idea... it also lets me see who in our guild took the less-than-desirable loot. =D

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Well, I know it has our progress wrong, so I'm not really sure it works :) What's the method it uses to track these things?

Same. Not to mention the guild who has had a vast majority of the server firsts on Stormreaver isn't even included on the list.

Just out of curiosity, how are the guilds that are going to be tracked selected?

Good job putting the site together, it's looking good so far. I know that took a shitload of work.

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Wow, this is a neat tool, it even shows how the system knows which bosses you killed.

Since this tool parses all items, it would be interesting to see how many people in raiding guilds are wearing crafted gear.

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Possible bug report: I don't see my guild appearing on the Cenarion Circle report page. Just based on my equipment alone, we should have credit for most of Karazhan and Maulgar (no comments from the peanut gallery, please). Could the silly Æ symbol in the guild name be stuffing things up? I see plenty of guilds that we're ahead of appearing, so I don't think that's the problem.

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One thing to note here is that the problems mainly come in when a player server transfers. A high ranked player going from one guild to another on the same server shouldn't cause a problem. Take a look at the guild Drama from Korgath: http://www.wowjutsu.com/us/korgath/g-drama.html

Look down in the list to where you see the warrior named Maximum. Loot is initially attributed to the guild you were in when I first saw it, so here with Maximum I know that his pocket watch from Moroes was received while in Drama, so I don't count that loot towards the guild he is in now -- indicated after the double arrow.

I see- very cleverly done. You obviously put a lot of sweat into this and it shows, it's a great tool.

For the server transfers issue I think requiring X amount of people to have loot from a boss is the wrong approach; it's entirely possible that all but one piece was sharded in a legitimate kill. One possible alternative solution would be not to count players if their gear presents an impossible "break" with their guild. All the cases I can think of:

- Player has loot from Aran, Illhoof, Prince, Chess, or Netherspite, but no other guilded player has loot from Curator (Curator | Late Kara)

- Player has loot from Vashj but no other guilded player has loot from at least 1 SSC boss (Early SSC | Vashj)

et cetera, let me switch to diagram form:

Early Kara -> Curator | Late Kara

Maulgar | Gruul

Any SSC boss | Vashj

Any TK boss | Kael

Vashj and Kael | Rage Winterchill | Anetheron | Kaz'rogal | Azgalor | Archimonde

and

Vashj and Kael | Rage Winterchill | Naz'jentus | Supremus | Akama, Teron, Bloodboil, RoS | Shahraz | Council | Illidan

This system wouldn't cover kills of 'parallel' bosses, so if someone server transfers to a guild which has not killed Leotheras but has Leotheras loot, it won't insulate against that. Parallel bosses are so close to each other in difficulty at the early stages of raiding though that I think the margin of error would be acceptable.

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Same. Not to mention the guild who has had a vast majority of the server firsts on Stormreaver isn't even included on the list.

Just out of curiosity, how are the guilds that are going to be tracked selected?

Good job putting the site together, it's looking good so far. I know that took a shitload of work.

Actually Stormreaver is a realm I detected a problem with this morning. I plan to add a way for people to manually submit their guild to be indexed, but for now what I've done to generate the current guilds is pull the "top 50" alliance/horde guilds from warcraftrealms.com and use that for a seed in my database. I had messed something up with Stormreaver when I first did this where it didn't get many of the guilds.

The armory is really slow today (normally I can index a guild of ~100 players in 30-40 seconds) but hopefully it clears up late and the rest of the guilds in queue can be updated (1155 guilds in queue).

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Very nice site, except my guild isnt even showing at all while guilds who are still halfway into Karazhan are :P

Is it possible that the filter does not like special characters? (ie: Ã…pocalypse)

Edit: Docjowles already posted about it, and from the your post under me you're already aware of it :) - GL, Keep it up.

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Possible bug report: I don't see my guild appearing on the Cenarion Circle report page. Just based on my equipment alone, we should have credit for most of Karazhan and Maulgar (no comments from the peanut gallery, please). Could the silly Æ symbol in the guild name be stuffing things up? I see plenty of guilds that we're ahead of appearing, so I don't think that's the problem.

Indeed, the Æ is screwing things up >_>

I'll try to fix this tonight, then reset all the guilds with special characters in their names so they can be reindexed.

Thanks!

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Just thought I'd say that this is really cool, and way faster then the armory for just checking out other raiders gear.

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Very cool, Aspir. Something I'm curious about:

Why are some guilds that have killed the same bosses ranked differently?

The minor difference in score between these guilds is based on the number of times they've killed certain bosses, or the amount of loot they've received from said bosses. This function was mainly implemented as a way to subtly sort between similar ranked guilds as opposed to just listing alphabetically.

Aren't there a few issues with that? I mean, I understand that you want a way of differentiating between a guild that's killed Hydross once and a guild that's killed Hydross 14 times and can do it with their eyes closed (but...er...for some reason hasn't progressed past that...okay, go with me here), but judging it based on "the amount of loot they've received" isn't going to be accurate if you have crappy luck with drops and stuff gets sharded.

A minor point, either way though. Fantastic website - it's really neat to take a look at my guild and see where all the loot went and stuff.

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Would you be willing to elaborate on this part of the FAQ?

The minor difference in score between these guilds is based on the number of times they've killed certain bosses, or the amount of loot they've received from said bosses. This function was mainly implemented as a way to subtly sort between similar ranked guilds as opposed to just listing alphabetically.

I'm curious to know what combination method you use for score estimation. I noticed a few times that there are "big" (about 30 points, which is about 10% for the bottom half of the Top 100) jumps in scores between guilds that have only one boss difference between them. I don't think this disrupts the general trends that much, but it would nonetheless be interesting to me (and I bet others here) if you were able and/or willing to discuss the mathematics associated with this separation.

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Actually Stormreaver is a realm I detected a problem with this morning. I plan to add a way for people to manually submit their guild to be indexed, but for now what I've done to generate the current guilds is pull the "top 50" alliance/horde guilds from warcraftrealms.com and use that for a seed in my database. I had messed something up with Stormreaver when I first did this where it didn't get many of the guilds.

This could be a part of it, since I know there are a few alliance guilds on my server that use that and other special characters.

Could the silly Æ symbol in the guild name be stuffing things up?

Also, you say you're pulling the guilds from warcraftrealms. Would it be safe to assume then that you're selecting the guilds based on the number of active members?

Aren't there a few issues with that? I mean, I understand that you want a way of differentiating between a guild that's killed Hydross once and a guild that's killed Hydross 14 times and can do it with their eyes closed (but...er...for some reason hasn't progressed past that...okay, go with me here), but judging it based on "the amount of loot they've received" isn't going to be accurate if you have crappy luck with drops and stuff gets sharded.

That would also be an issue for bosses like the named beasts in Karazhan that really have no items of value. Most guilds, like mine, I'd assume would only kill the named beasts while starting Karazhan for a few extra shards for enchants while most of the items in Karazhan are still upgrades.

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Very nice tool and should definitely be more accurate than sites which require voluntary submission, since not all guilds choose to report. Grats on your work.

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Very interesting tool. I'll wait a few days before contacting you about my guild. I'll assume it's part of the queue not yet finished for now. I don't think there's really any safe or 100% way to detect transfers, especially server ones where they change their names. One thing I'd be interested in seeing is cross server rankings if you would be able to do so instead of searching 10 pages to find yourself.

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I notice many people are suggesting "three" for a confirm kill. I'd just like to say, I think the threshold should be 4. In theory (for most bosses anyways), 2 kills = 4 loot. Plus, that also rules out any possible fluke or bugged kills (granted, I don't think there are anymore of those... but if this tool is to be used in the future... I mean, who remembers bugged Ragnaros? no sons? or bugged Gruul with no shatters?)

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This is a fantastic tool, and seems to me to be a huge step forward in guild "ranking." I don't care about the rankings so much as the wealth of information that hides behind them.

My realm also has a few issues (lol RP aside). Two guilds I happen to know should be at or near the top based on kills don't appear on the list at all - is it possible you are missing guilds entirely from the list you seeded with? One of the guilds missing has long been the most progressed on our server (at least 6 months or so) so I find it unlikely they would have been missing from your initial list. Any other way to explain missing info?

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This is a fantastic tool, and seems to me to be a huge step forward in guild "ranking." I don't care about the rankings so much as the wealth of information that hides behind them.

My realm also has a few issues (lol RP aside). Two guilds I happen to know should be at or near the top based on kills don't appear on the list at all - is it possible you are missing guilds entirely from the list you seeded with? One of the guilds missing has long been the most progressed on our server (at least 6 months or so) so I find it unlikely they would have been missing from your initial list. Any other way to explain missing info?

Does the mentioned guild have a non-standard character in their guild name? Scroll up to see what I mean.

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I can confirm that special characters cause problems as my guild Invíctus is also missing, probably due to the second "i".

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I would suggest maybe needing 2 -3 pieces of loot from a boss for it to show up, that way since any given boss drops X amount of loot, it would register as a kill, but hopefully weed out misnomers?

I'd have to agree here. We had a transfer from a BT guild and its making us look a lot better then we are. If it were reverted to needing two pieces it would eliminate most of the unwarranted boss kills.

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Very cool site!

While there are potential issues with server transfers giving credit for a boss a guild hasn't killed, I think overall those instances will be rare enough that you shouldn't worry about it. I mean, how often does a guy in T6 transfer to a guild that's still working on SSC? It's just not a common occurance at the high end of things (where people are competitive enough to care), and doing stuff like requiring X number of items from a boss before giving credit could mean that a guild doesn't get credit for their first kill, and we all know the first kill is the one people are the most proud of (and thus desire recognition for). What I'm saying is I don't think there is any pressing need to make an overly complicated system to counteract a problem that just won't come up that often.

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