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Chicken

Protection and you!

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FWIW, our OT whenever we do Gruul is a Paladin. (Our MT is a druid...yes we do things backwards.) He never complains about mana issues, but he might be chugging Ogri'la pots. Last night with a shadow priest in his group and JoW up on Gruul, he used one mana pot. He does not usually have a shadow priest, I believe, but JoW is often up on Gruul.

He has ~13.5k HP unbuffed. We have Gruul on farm and are making forays into Mag's lair and SSC.

Sure, your mileage may vary. I was stating what I've seen, and to this point the dps has basically outgeared me, meaning I really have to work my ass off to stay ahead of them. On a fight like Gruul, I'd rather heal or "DPS" than worry about the tanking.

As for the list, I know that not all fights will have a distinction. But I'd love for this thread to be somewhere I could point my guild leader and raid leader and be like, "There, that's how prot paladins work. Those are fights we kick-ass on. Those are the fights where we'll struggle on." Where I'm at now, my guild finally trusts me as a *tank," and I don't forsee much trouble going forward. But I've definitely had tells in the past along the lines of "I'm not sure how protection paladins work, and what your role would be for this fight, so I need to sit you."

Most writeups, videos, etc of boss kills don't have paladins tanking. Most of the threads in these forums start out with several pages of strategies without paladin tanks, because the people doing the first kills pretty much didn't use us. So when my Raid Leader reads a strat, they aren't necessarily looking for how to best use a tankadin, but more how to kill the boss period. So it's up to me to suggest what I should be doing, like "Hey, I can tank so-and-so in this encounter." A quick-list of paladin tanking roles on various bosses would be invaluable for me to link to, and most likely fairly helpful to people just starting their 25-man progression as prot.

If there's anything I can help with, let me know. I've been meaning to create a Prot Pally 101 post for my own guild for some time, but haven't had the spare time, so thanks!

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Might also be worth stressing how important it can be to get your DPS to give you those first few seconds to get aggro before they start opening up with the AE. DPS with an itchy trigger finger can make picking up AE packs a lot more challenging. I know I've heard of having DPS hold off a few seconds referred to as "common sense" in other threads, but if people are going to be looking at this thread for a definitive idea of how to utilize prot pallies, it might be helpful to let them know it's important.

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Ah that's a way of thinking about making a list of things a Prot Paladin is good for that hadn't occured to me. I guess it makes sense not all of us are guild masters and/or raid leaders themselves. It should be easy enough for me to compile something like that, especially since I have experience with pretty much doing anything in tier 4 and tier 5 content, not in tier 6 content, but I have pretty broad experience there as well by now.

And good point about telling people to give their pallies a chance to aggro. I'll probably cover that properly in the Hyjal section since it matters a lot there.

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It's worth putting in a section covering general stuff you need to tell people who've never raided with a prot pala before.

I spent an inordinately long time explaining to my newest guild why one shaman spamming lesser healing wave was not sufficent to keep me up because of the difference in incoming burst between warriors and paladins.

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hey folks, apologies if this isn't the correct thread to ask such a question but I have a request for some theorycrafting for a protection paladin.

Firstly, this is regarding the changes to some of the talents in patch 2.3. These talents are Vindication, Persuit of Justice and Seal of Command. I've been experimenting with the talent calculator on WoWhead and found that by losing 1 handed weapon specialisation, I have the following choices;

3/3 Vindication and 2/3 Persuit of Justice, or 3/3 Vindication and Seal of Command with 1 talent point spare to put in something else.

So the question is, How effective is vindication when tanking things like trash mobs in raids? I'm aware most bosses are immune to the effect. Also, is a -2 or 3% chance to be hit by a spell going to make much of a difference when tanking spell casting mobs? and, if the benefits are substantial in any way, is the loss of the 5% damage from 1 handed weapon specialization still too much of a loss to justify taking those talents.

Also in regards to seal of command, my thinking was getting a slow 1 hander and using the seal for something like offtanking might be a better choice then tanking with seal of righteousness or vengeance. The randomness of seal of 'casino' makes me unsure however.

I'm sorry if this question has already been covered but I couldn't find any information on it.

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Observation of Vindication on PTR:

Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.

That's a difference of 315 mana points, or around 10~%.

Not knowing mob health values, I couldn't really test how much it reduced their HP, but I was able to test if it had any effect.

I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP, obviously.

In other words, Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks.

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You may also want to include: [Ogri'la Aegis] as one of the initial Shields. It's fairly easy to get with the Ogri'la and has a potential of having more stamina with the right gems.

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Observation of Vindication on PTR:

Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.

That's a difference of 315 mana points, or around 10~%.

Not knowing mob health values, I couldn't really test how much it reduced their HP, but I was able to test if it had any effect.

I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP, obviously.

In other words, Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks.

That leads to the question - how much does stamina account for raid trash HP? and would vindication on a trash mob amount to a 4%~ HP drop on a mob with say...100k hp.

Thanks for sharing the testing you've done Fiola. I'm going to use that method and check mob health drops with the use of beastlore if possible as it shows the mobs current and max health values. Should be very accurate.

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You may also want to include: [Ogri'la Aegis] as one of the initial Shields. It's fairly easy to get with the Ogri'la and has a potential of having more stamina with the right gems.

Good call. Might want to show something like this:

[item]Aegis of the Sunbird[/item]

[item]Platinum Shield of the Valorous[/item]

[item]Ogri'la Aegis[/item]

The first is good to add since sometimes you might not get a certain drop for a long time, while the Aegis is a sure item if you get the rep and items to turn in for it.

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Unless it's more significant than 4% it's probably going to be quite useless on trash... 4% on a trash mob takes like what, 1 second? And any DPS done before vindication procced reduces the effect. If the reduction is 4% and the raid does >=4% damage to the mob before vindication procced your vindication had done absolutely nothing when it comes to killing the mob faster.

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Just a quick question: doesn't the fact that with PTR 2.3 all seal and judgment scaling comes from AP rather than from spelldamage totally trash spelldamage as a stat for Prot Pallies ?

Or did i missunderstand the changes made to improve raidperformance of our Ret brothers ?

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Just a quick question: doesn't the fact that with PTR 2.3 all seal and judgment scaling comes from AP rather than from spelldamage totally trash spelldamage as a stat for Prot Pallies ?

Or did i missunderstand the changes made to improve raidperformance of our Ret brothers ?

EDIT: You gave me quite a scare there, but it seems like you have misunderstood the changes. When I asked around in the cesspit.. erhm... I mean on the official forums, I quickly got the reply that no, seal and judgement damage still benefits from spell damage, not attack power. According to the replies, that has not been changed. (See this thread.) I hope they are correct.

Original message:

Eeeek?! Now I'm worried. Could someone please check or confirm if paladin judgement and seal damage scales with AP instead of spell damage on the PTR?

If I have understood correctly, that would entail a significant threat generation nerf for protection paladins.

Please put my troubled mind at ease by saying ain't so. Sorry if this is considered off topic, but I feel that this thread was the best place to ask.

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Does anyone know if the proc on Ashtongue Talisman of Zeal is considered Holy damage? If it is, it's 57 threat per second from that item alone, more if the proc is affected by spell power. (I doubt it.)

I'm not in BT, so I don't know how hard it is to get, but it seems to be fairly easy. I hear you have to kill some BT bosses to get to the vendor, so I'm not sure how difficult it actually is.

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Just a quick question: doesn't the fact that with PTR 2.3 all seal and judgment scaling comes from AP rather than from spelldamage totally trash spelldamage as a stat for Prot Pallies ?

Or did i missunderstand the changes made to improve raidperformance of our Ret brothers ?

What you're referring to was a rumored change that would have affected SoC/JoC and Crusader Strike, but nothing else. That change never materialized (or at least it hasn't yet) but regardless it wouldn't have affected non-Ret paladins.

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Something that i find very confusing is the whole topic about weapon speed. I know it's been talked about in the viability thread, but i think it could be useful to place a summary under the gear section.

Also, i think it would be beneficial to place some comments about what gear you should equip when a protection paladin is not tanking or off tanking and how to DPS "effectively" as a protection paladin. I know it has also been talked about in the viability thread, but i think it would be nice to summarize it here as well.

Just some thoughts. Great thread tho, i already found it to be very useful.

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Weapon Speed for Protection Paladin

--------------------------------------

Personally, I have found it to be a non-issue completely. Both slow and fast weapons have their pros and cons.

Fast Weapon ( under 2.0 ): More consitent threat. The less time between weapon swings, the less a dodge or parry will hurt you in terms of short term threat per second. With a speed under 2.0, you will lose some of the direct benefit or reckoning, however you will gain the ability to take better advantage of repeated reckoning procs. Fast weapons also proc utility judgements such as JoW more often, as they are % based rather than PPM. A con is that you will have more parries with a faster weapon, thus take slightly more spike damage.

Slow Weapon( over 2.0 ): Less consistent threat due to dodge/parry, but takes better advantage of reckonings 4 swings. The dps/threat gain of any weapon over 2.0 speed is exactly the same over time. Slower weapons also have a higher chance to proc SoV for alliance paladins choosing to use it.

Speed has no effect on SoR dps, as it is normalized to the weapon speed.

This topic will probably die even moreso with 2.3, as I forsee reckoning being cut from many MT builds in favor of more mitigation(CoEx)/more consistent aggro(Precision/ISotC).

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Looking at the OP, I find a lot of it seems to be focused on what we might call a Maintankadin. Many protection paladins often find themselves in a shared role for this and should take note of different strategies/gearing for different roles they might play. It can be very rewarding playing a prot paladin that is not maintanking (Morogrim, Al'ar come to mind first).

Gearsets for a Protection Paladin

-------------------------------------

Main Tank Set: This set is designed for tanking the hardest hitters or progression content. Focus on maximizing stamina and armor while maintaining uncrushability. We are no different than warriors in this respect, as it has been proven that constant, low damage is far more healable than spike damage that you would gain by increasing avoidance instead of mitigation.

Threat Set: This set is designed for aoe fights or fast fights where you must obtain and build aggro very fast. Look for the paladin specific gear with spell damage, and spell damage trinkets like [item]Eye of Magtheridon[/item] and [item]Icon of the Silver Crescent[/item].

Block Value Set: This set is designed for aoe tanking many mobs for longer durations. The idea is to reduce the mob hits to near zero. The [item]Gnomeregan Auto-Blocker 600[/item] is great for this. 2.3 is introducing many new block value items as well. With a full block value set, a paladin will be able to block approximately 1000hp post-mitigation hits.

Non-tanking Damage Set: I haven't done the numbers to be honest, someone should probably get on it. Personally I use a spell damage set (my threat trinkets and the lamellar pvp gear, some of the tier items). I know some horde use a retribution style set with SoB instead of SoR. Irregarless, turn off Righteous Fury or you will die faster than an Enhance Shaman without salvation.

Healing Set: Do not take offense to being asked to heal. Some fights there just is not room for many tanks, and the best you can do for the raid is heal. This set should not be like a holy healing set, but rather focus on healing and mp5, as crit does little for a non-Illumiation build.

Additionally, you will want to get a set of 20 slot bags, as on any given raid you may use all 5 of these sets. Oh, and don't forget your resist gear for Hydross. Suckers!

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Additionally, you will want to get a set of 20 slot bags, as on any given raid you may use all 5 of these sets. Oh, and don't forget your resist gear for Hydross. Suckers!

O man, so true, I've been too cheap to buy the 20-slotters, but it's always embarrassing to tell a mage "Can you just give me 2 stacks of water? I'm out of bagspace." I've actually not taken side-grades before because it wasn't worth it to throw something out.

If you're primarily an off-tank I'd suggest concentrating first on a threat set. In my experience, the off-tank's tend to have their target dps'd down first, so you need to be able to pump out the threat fast in order for the dps to be able to light it up.

But don't neglect your high stamina, high mitigation set, low threat set either, even if you're not going to be MTing anything. Often, if you're assigned a target that's not going to be dying for a couple of minutes (last channeler on mag, last FLK add), staying alive is the hard part, and keeping the mob on you is near trivial. In these cases, you can pretend you're a warrior and play with items like [item]Mallet of the Tides[/item].

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Do you mind adding to the enchant section something comparing Scryer shoulder enchants [item]Greater Inscription of the Knight[/item] vs [item]Greater Inscription of the Orb[/item] and Aldor [item]Greater Inscription of Discipline[/item] vs [item]Greater Inscription of Warding[/item]. These aint really that important but the head enchant comparison should be pretty valid when you want to squeeze more spell damage and get spell hit in addition. [item]Glyph of the Defender[/item] versus [item]Glyph of Power[/item]?

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Good stuff here. I'd add [item]Antonidas's Aegis of Rapt Concentration[/item] to the Shield section, its low stamina puts it below Kaz/Illidan but the massive armor beats Aldori.

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Do you mind adding to the enchant section something comparing Scryer shoulder enchants [item]Greater Inscription of the Knight[/item] vs [item]Greater Inscription of the Orb[/item] and Aldor [item]Greater Inscription of Discipline[/item] vs [item]Greater Inscription of Warding[/item]. These aint really that important but the head enchant comparison should be pretty valid when you want to squeeze more spell damage and get spell hit in addition. [item]Glyph of the Defender[/item] versus [item]Glyph of Power[/item]?

I prolly missed this somewhere in that Main Tanking thread, but a stat value comparison between spell damage and stamina would be great, as these are the easiest to flask/food/oil to compensate for.

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Thanks for all the contributions while I was away. Expect a lot of the suggestions to pop up in the main post over the course of the next few days.

Good point on the multiple alternative shields to start out with especially, thanks.

As to the spell damage versus survivability choice for enchants, I'd say that's largely dependent on how well geared you are and how you feel about your aggro. I'd actually recommend if at all possible to keep some of your old gear around and enchant those optimally for spell damage, while setting your new gear to survivability (Generally I find that if you want more aggro, you generally don't mind losing the survivability, so using an older gear set is better for it).

When I get around to adding a list of suggested protection padin roles for each fight in the game though, I could probably include a note on whether it's a role in which you should probably favor survivability or where you should favor threat.

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I've never done any paladin tanking to date, but I've started putting together a tanking set for the hell of it. One thing that I think this guide lacks is any discussion on the different builds paladin tanks can use. For example, your build is a lot different than other prot paladins I've seen. Care to add something to that extent?

EDIT: Woops. I see you have it in your Future Additions section.

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