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Cromfel

Retribution DPS Theorycraft

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Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?

I could test it. What are good mobs for testing this on? Are the ones in Blasted Lands any good for this? (I assume they have very low armor, but for comparison between SoC and SoB it doesn't matter, I guess.) Oh, by the way, being a blood elf, I haven't cared so much about gearing for spell damage, so it's below 200.

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Checking it-

Okay, here's what I figured out (and I corrected a couple math errors from the previous ones)

retcycle2ym8.jpg

They're so incredibly close, I'd actually probably use the 5th rotation instead of the 4th, since it has a bit more wiggle-room. So yes, the 8sec Judgement only judging when it won't interfere is probably the best choice.

I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage

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Are there any BE pallys available to get some sort of DPS comparison between SoB and SoC? I know SoB is superior in general, but by how much?

If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.

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I've been playing my retadin for roughly 5 months now. My question is as the title states: which pally melee skills are affected by critical strike rating, and which ones are affected by spell critical strike rating? Normally I just try to go as overhaul as I can with the regular critical strike rating, mainly due to the fact of my uncertainty about which skills are considered spells and which are not. If someone could clarify this for me, I would be greatly appreciative of it, because I'm really looking to maximize my effectiveness, as everyone likes to do.

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I've been playing my retadin for roughly 5 months now. My question is as the title states: which pally melee skills are affected by critical strike rating, and which ones are affected by spell critical strike rating? Normally I just try to go as overhaul as I can with the regular critical strike rating, mainly due to the fact of my uncertainty about which skills are considered spells and which are not. If someone could clarify this for me, I would be greatly appreciative of it, because I'm really looking to maximize my effectiveness, as everyone likes to do.

Melee Crit Rating:

Hammer of Wrath (Melee hit rating)

Seal of Command (Melee hit rating)

Judgement of Command (Spell hit rating)

Seal of Blood (Melee hit rating)

Judgement of Blood (Spell hit rating)

Crusader Strike (Melee hit rating)

Spell crit rating:

Exorsism (Spell hit rating)

Holy Wrath (Spell hit rating)

Judgement of Vengeance (Spell hit rating)

Judgement of Righteousness (Spell hit rating)

Eye for an eye (Spell hit rating)

Is that all?

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You might want to consider adding an itemization section much like the enhancement shaman post. However I can be no help there because I have no idea how to itemize a retribution paladin (gogo prot!).

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If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.

Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.

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Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.

I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.

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I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage

Actually, I noticed how similar mostly when I was testing them out in Blasted Lands last night. Once you get going, they're almost identical - but it's actually hard to get to the next tier of Ret without putting 2 points in Imp Judgement. Also, chaining the GCD from SoC into CS proves sometimes more difficult than CS->SoC, since you can judge while the GCD from CS is going, and reseal right after.

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So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.

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But these are still all in the works, so don't pester :p If anyone can tell me how i make the spreadsheet open office friendly, will do so

It seems to be a two-fold problem. Firstly, OOo is not compatible with Excel's macro language at all, so things like the buttons and drop-downs don't function at all. Also, any fields that seem to reference hidden fields don't function. Things such as the totals for stats, the row with values for Blessing of Kings, etc, all give 502 errors (Invalid argument; Function argument is not valid, for example, a negative number for the root function.)

I'd help decipher the issues, but I have never actually worked with macros, and can't figure out what's going on in the hidden cells. Perhaps this will help anyone who's working on this.

--edit--

There are actually a few fields that do function in the top section for "Information". "Base Information" is static, so that obviously works, but strangely things like "Hit", "Crit", "Dam (S)", work.

Going through the steps on how things are totaled out, it seems to be that the calculations for trinkets is where the problem lies. IE: if I completely remove the "Strength" column for trinkets and the libram, the stat totals from gear comes out to an actual value with no error, and then the overall total works fine... until you factor in Divine Strength, which breaks it again. D:

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So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.

The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)

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I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.

Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)

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The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)

Rough. So essentially the only benefit from haste is auto attack damage, which isn't bad but it's going to be hard to justify when I watch swing #3 in a row without an SoC proc.

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Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)

I don't actually remember having seen an SoC proc from a WF generated attack, however it very well could. I remember reading somewhere that it wouldn't.

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I'm somewhat curious if anyone has started and maintained any type of Retribution Equipment thread as I didn't see it on the first few pages but I have started to question the full AP only gear model and have since considered 2 T5 and 2 T6?

Gear Theorycraft can be very very painful.

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I'm somewhat curious if anyone has started and maintained any type of Retribution Equipment thread as I didn't see it on the first few pages but I have started to question the full AP only gear model and have since considered 2 T5 and 2 T6?

Gear Theorycraft can be very very painful.

I know the general consensus (especially for BE pallys) is that warrior gear with +haste is far superior than tier sets. Since I have yet to see any accurate information regarding the bonus proc rate for Tier 6, I can't tell whether it would be worth the investment or not. According to WoWhead its a 20% proc rate, but I would much rather see a WWS or combat log than trust it. As for the 2 piece of Tier 5, its effectiveness is entirely dependant on your use of Judgement. If you use Judgement every cooldown it works out to a fair amount of saved mana, but you would be sacrificing a decent amount of stats (especially haste) to use it over non-tier BT gear.

To the best of my knowledge no one has yet tried to keep an up to date equipment list for ret pallys though.

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The problem with haste is it's haste and hit and lacks all forms of crit in max haste gear my crit is so bad I would need amazing other pieces to increase the crit.

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The problem with haste is it's haste and hit and lacks all forms of crit in max haste gear my crit is so bad I would need amazing other pieces to increase the crit.

This may very well change with the threat reduction, but right now you only want enough crit to keep Vengeance up as close to 100% as possible. After that crit only makes your aggro more spikey while not increasing your DPS as well as AP. With the change to Vengeance and the addition of more crit to the tree (Sanctified Seals) it will mean you will need much less crit from gear to keep that 100% uptime. There is a point where AP starts to give diminished returns for overall DPS as compared to crit, but I'm not sure of the exact numbers. I'm sure a full time retadin could help a bit more there than myself.

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As a side note on gear since I can't load the calculator in open office...

How do Cataclysm's Edge and the Torch of the Damned compete?

I have fairly free options on both, since the only raiding warrior with anything like strong PvP inclinations dropped off of arenaing recently and respecced Fury, and already has a Stormherald anyway.

Basically, is the -.3 speed on the Cataclysm enough of a deficiency to outweigh the ~60 AP and 8 DPS advantage (and 300 armor penetration)?

I'm trying to decide on their relative value.

I always thought Torch was best as a given but I want to evaluate it in a more complete fashion.

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I have a question about what kind of group a ret paladin needs to be in to be successful. Currently we have a melee group that looks like this:

DPS Warrior (fury)

DPS Warrior (fury)

Rogue

Rogue

Enhancement Shaman

Presumably if one paladin in our raid goes retribution, he would displace a warrior, and an additional healer would be invited.

However, in the instance that we only have 25, including 2 dps warriors, how should group allocation be handled. Could a paladin make use of a shadow priest group and incorporate consecration into the dps cycle? Should the warrior be put with the hunter/feral group?

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However, in the instance that we only have 25, including 2 dps warriors, how should group allocation be handled. Could a paladin make use of a shadow priest group and incorporate consecration into the dps cycle? Should the warrior be put with the hunter/feral group?

I wouldn't recommend putting the ret pally with the shadow priest as a replacement for WF. Cons spamming won't make up for the lost dps.

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After the haste nerf and the recalculation of PPM % chance on the after-haste weapon speed, it is definitely not worth it to trade crit for haste if you're an alliance paladin, assuming the SoV tests apply to SoC. For SoB pallies it was definitely worth it to trade crit for haste before the haste nerf, and about even after the haste nerf.

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It was suggested to me I repost here. Have at it! ^_^

Ok. The below are some theories I've come up with and had limited ability (or none at all) to test over the last few months. I know there are errors. I need help finding them. Shoot holes in the theories if you can, because I can't test these theories well on my own at this time. But maybe this will give some people some different ways to think about optimizing Retadin DPS. Also, I already know places where I need help adjusting the numbers for 2.3 (or in general), I'll outline them all and hopefully people will be kind enough to supply them for me. If someone after seeing this wants to try and lend me a hand with testing let me know, I <3 you long time.

Theory 1: Spell Rotation

I've noticed quite a few paladins use a rotation of the following kind based on their WWS logs: Seal of Blood/Command, Judgement, Crusader Strike. Some exorcism thrown in (1-2), some consecrate thrown in (nothing major). It also seems like they do not use very many if any mana potions.

Another common trend is people tend to like to go BS for the weapons. Therefore I propose the following:

The superior DPS rotation to use is Consecrate (Rank 4), Hammer of Wrath, Seal of Blood/Command, Judgement, and Crusader Strike. If exorcism is available, that takes priority over Consecrate in terms of mana (but if you can fire both off then do it).

You can achieve this rotation easily if instead of leaning BS you take alchemy and use an alchemist's stone, even if you don't get a judgement of wisdom up on the mob from another paladin (but you should). Some numbers:

Obviously these numbers will be off for 2.3. If someone would be kind enough to supply me the new mana costs for 2.3 (and if someone would let me know if the mana cost on CS has changed), I can adjust all these numbers. Assume HoW, Exorcism go down and CS goes up for now. This means that the standard rotation most rets use goes up in mana cost and the new one will not be as expensive as before.

At this point I'll note I'm intentionally not including blood. I'm not going to bother modeling it, just assume automatically it is far more mana efficient (lower mana cost and mana back from others healing you). Doesn't really change the point. But if you notice, the rotation I'm proposing goes anywhere from 2x-4x as much mana per second drain on the paladin as the standard rotation. However, I swear its doable. Here's why:

values for chain chugging pots w and without alchemist's stone. If you notice fel manas w/ alchemist almost cover consecrate rank 4 by themselves. Now use major magebloods, make sure your fellow dins get wisdom up there for you to refresh, etc, and its very easy to keep up the mana. Even without wisdom, if I have blood I can pretty much perma sustain it without trying. I don't recall if I can do it no wisdom and command without it being a fight where I take damage.

The theory is as such:

Unless you are threat capped already,if you can generate more mana and then use it, then you generate more dps than you would by leaning BS and not using alchemist's stone (and if you don't chain chug and you aren't at threat cap then you just are playing sub optimally). For me, Consecrate rank 4 is worth 88 dps on a single target, and if you can hit multiple targets it gets even better. The BS weapons IMO aren't superior enough to justify passing up on 15 all stats and the extra mana, and I don't know if a trinket exists that will provide more dps (I mean that - maybe one does, I just don't know). The rotation I proposed above is a consequence of this theory: Its roughly what I am comfortable throwing at a mob in a regular rotation without bottoming out. It might be possible to do better, I'd need some time to sit at a mob using multiple ranks of consecrate etc.

Theory 2: Spell Damage maybe doesn't suck *that* much

When you use blood, judgement of blood, CS, and white hits as your only dps, yes. Spell damage sucks. But notice I have multiple things in that rotation which all benefit from spell damage - especially if you run command. So how good is spell damage roughly?

Here is my math and assumptions. I need people to give me more accurate numbers and assumptions and I will re-run the numbers to get something more accurate:

1) Assume ideal circumstances - all spells go off every time they are off cooldown. Yes, this obviously isn't true, but for the sake of trying to keep things simple to start I'm fudging.

2) Assume 3.6 speed weapon, 35% melee crit, 7% spell crit, enh shaman and kings. The last two favor str and attack power, the rest is just for a starting point. I also assume the % bonuses are multiplicative, so its 1.1*1.1*1.1 (kings, 10% str talent, and 10% AP) more mileage out of str than base. ALSO: I know my spell coefficients are off. If someone can give me the right ones I'd appreciate it a great deal.

3) Assume following mathematics:

Spell based additions to DPS:

1) 5 Spell damage = 1 dps consecrate (single target assuming)

2) (Spell Damage * .4) / 6 seconds = CS dps from dmg <- adjusted for 2.3

3) (Spell damage * .43)/ 6 seconds) * .2 = HoW DPS from dmg.

4) ((Spell damage * .43)*6.8 PPM)/60 seconds = SoC dps from damage.

5) (Spell damage * .43) / 8 = JoC dps from dmg

6) Exorcism isn't counted for the number I'll present here, but math is (spell damage * .43) / 15

Str based additions to DPS:

1) Attack power / 14 = white dps from str

2) (white dps * weapon speed) / 6 = CS dps from str

3) white dps * .35 = SoB DPS

4) ((white dps * weapon speed) * ((.7 to holy damage * 6.8 PPM)/60 seconds)) = SoC dps from str

The value I get for the value of dmg under the above circumstances is .610001 for SoB, and .916675 for SoC. Spell crit raises the value in favor of dmg, melee crit lowers it, weapon speed lowers it, but not by any massive margins. I will produce precise numbers about that once I get the math corrected, and upload a spreadsheet so people can modify it/see I'm not making things up.

However, these numbers seem to be higher than people were originally predicting the value for dmg conversion. I've seen numbers like .4 etc. I'd like some help correcting this to get an exact value for a spell heavy rotation. It might be higher or lower, but knowing would certainly allow us to evaluate tier X v dps plate etc. Seems like for alliance 'dins dmg might be VERY valuable.

Concluding thoughts

Once again, I stress that I'm extremely limited in my ability to test. My guild was strugging before and it has decided to stop raiding as of tuesday (which was also the day I realized the possibility of theory 2, before I assumed Dmg sucked like everyone else - my gear needs to be redone if I'm right). I've put this out here at last because it seems like I'm not going to get an opportunity to personally test this before coming forward with it, and I may never even get to see the fruits of this if I'm right. So, if you can help me refine the theories or shoot em down, by all means. I put this forward now to try and help further the cause for rets like me everywhere.

I think I might be right, at least partially. If that's true, there is a lot more dps to squeeze out of ret. So, I'm curious what you all think of this. Happy to answer questions, and I appologize if I'm just a newb who made a ton of dumb errors. Have at it!

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It seems to be a two-fold problem. Firstly, OOo is not compatible with Excel's macro language at all, so things like the buttons and drop-downs don't function at all. Also, any fields that seem to reference hidden fields don't function. Things such as the totals for stats, the row with values for Blessing of Kings, etc, all give 502 errors (Invalid argument; Function argument is not valid, for example, a negative number for the root function.)

I'd help decipher the issues, but I have never actually worked with macros, and can't figure out what's going on in the hidden cells. Perhaps this will help anyone who's working on this.

If it helps at all, I get macro warning in OOCalc when I load the spriest spreadsheet but get no errors, and I *think* it does incorporate hidden cells, but I might be wrong. As least, I don't see on the sheet where any of the calculations are actually done, unless there's a difference between "cannot be seen by default" and "hidden."

The dropdown menus in your spreadsheet work fine, sorry I didn't clarify that (though they seem to like to break as well, the mage spreadsheet does this). It's just everything else that's messed up :P

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