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JamesVZ

PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue.

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I would have agreed that PvE to PvP transfers would be unfair....like a year and a half ago when people were getting ganked right and left in every zone from 1-60, and everyone was in the Old World.

But we all know 1-60 areas are pretty dead for the most part, the risk of getting ganked or having a confrontation is very very low.

And people leveling in the 60-70 range have better things to do then gank(Like getting a flying mount to gank with!), the most PvP action I ever see is at a random meeting stone.

The War in Warcraft is pretty much dead at this point. I don't see why they don't open up transfers. I look forward to carebearing with the Horde in Dalaran for WotLK(Except Ghando, he smells) ^^

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Repairs can also get frustrating, members of both faction in the eye love to park their mounts on the repair guy making it very difficult to click on the repair guy without accidentally attacking the alliance player.

Ctrl-V is your friend.

To those saying the difference between PvE and PvP nowdays is negligible, that depends entirely upon the server. My home server Blackrock, is still as viscious and gank prone in the traditional areas today, as it was upon release day. Depending on how bored the opposite faction is, some days it is impossible to level in areas like STV and TM.

That said, I'm in favour of open server transfers regardless of type.

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I think the main problem Blizzard now perceives with opening PvE->PvP transfers is ruining the server communities on these PvE servers.

You can make the same argument for character transfers in general. Adding in a new set of players to any established community is sure to disrupt the culture -- however, the character transfer system implemented so far is widely lauded and embraced by the general populace.

Claiming that PvE servers suck and many people want to leave them because they suck and that it would ruin PvE servers completely is a seperate issue in my opinion, and if it were true that Blizzard was holding off on opening PvE to PvP transfers due to such an irrational fear simply as nothing more than a stop gap measure (we still have not seen any ideas from them to fix low population servers), it would paint them in a much more malicious light than I think any of us view them as. I don't think they link the two problems together either, I just think they haven't really thought about it in awhile.

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I leveled the mage for TBC, from day 1 that the xpac hit. Most people will remember the unspoken truce that existed in the packed zones as everyone leveled, so using that argument is sorta weak too. When the zones are overpacked, and everyone is leveling, most of them tend to not want to get into pvping. People generally only want to gank in world zones, not get into long drawn out PVP battles unless there is something to be gained.

In other words, it's some perceived notion that those who leveled on PVP servers had it so much harder then those who leveled on PVE servers. It seems to only exist with those who have never played on a PVE server, and from someone who has leveled on both, it's such a minor difference that it does not warrant this outright ban on transfer.

First, having been a popular guy with the local Alliance on Detheroc, there were bounties on my head all through the levelling process that absolutely made my life difficult. It's not typical but it still substantially increased my leveling time and affected my gameplay. And having been through STV very soon after launch...that place was like 'Nam. If you were in there, you were "in the shit." It ultimately didn't "break" anything but leveling or questing or farming on a PvP server is fundamentally different. As a Resto Shaman, I am easy pickings for any enterprising DPS classes that decide to gank me while doing my dailies (until 2.3 :D). Screw this "most people don't bother ganking" claim...in my experience most people will immediately gank you if they have an opportunity (especially if they outnumber you) and will carebear it up if they're at a disadvantage. Depending on the situation, my daily quests can take between 20 minutes and 2 hours solely because of PvP. Extrapolate that over months and it adds up.

All that being said, I don't care if they open up these transfers. Hell, it would make some people happy and Blizzard would make some extra cash, so they probably should. But if they're gonna make a philosophical point about it, I can see where they're coming from.

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Ctrl-V is your friend.

No interest of mine to derail this thread, yet I'd like to play Devil's Advocate in support of the person you're attempting to educate and remind you to try that in a royally swamped BG queue area like the one in org and see how easy it is to click on the NPC's bar when it constantly jumps around as players move around and the bars constantly reposition. Sometimes your method works, sometimes it doesn't. A raid of jerks sitting on an NPC is better handled by /target name.

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Ctrl-V is your friend.

Obviously you have never played chase the moving bar when your 20 other fellow raid members are also there trying to repair. I have adopted a hoover method where I do not land so that if i mis-click i will not attack. It still adds frustration and daily difficult.

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Do you feel that your ongoing irritations with PVP servers once you've reached the level cap will mysteriously not affect PVE players that transfer to a PVP server?

Then why are you talking about it? The fact that somebody likes to sit on the repair vendor won't change, and it's something that a transfer will have to deal with just as much as you every day forward.

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I am on the fence on the issue as a whole, I have a friend who didn't understand the consequences of transferring his druid from a PvP realm to a PvE realm and then couldn't get it back to our realm. Most of the PvP that happens on a PvP server is in the BGs. I think most PvE player have never even contemplated what it means to control the stone, whether that is for 5 mans, 10 mans or 25 mans. PvE -> PvP has very little to do with leveling in my mind and has everything to do with travel and instance control. PvP probably adds 5-10 minutes on average to any individual raid/party members travel time. PvP even hass an effect on doing dailys, once Blades edge or Netherstorm gets crowded people will kill you to get their quest done faster and likewise you will do the same.

If you want to have a fair debate do not encapsulate this issue into how hard or how easy it is to level on a PvP server.

That's fair, but if the real PVP server experience comes from controlling the stones and the like, what difference does it make if you start on that server at 70 (when you start running those instances) or at 1, where you're extremely unlikely to truly try to run an instance at level anyway.

The only valid argument I can see against allowing PVE-PVP transfers is that it would probably overcrowd some of the "better" servers. When looking at PVE server progression to find a viable spot for my transfer, there were generally only one or two servers that met my standards as far as having multiple guilds fairly progressed in raid content. Looking at PVP servers, there are several servers with lots of BT/MH guilds. They probably don't want to cause an influx of people to hit them.

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Do you feel that your ongoing irritations with PVP servers once you've reached the level cap will mysteriously not affect PVE players that transfer to a PVP server?

Then why are you talking about it? The fact that somebody likes to sit on the repair vendor won't change, and it's something that a transfer will have to deal with just as much as you every day forward.

Lets just say I wish I had a few level 70's on a PvE server that I could grind dailies with and then xfer to my PvP server.

Yes, I would go through the trouble to avoid spending an hour trying to make 10g and 2 mediocre potions while being constantly ganked mid escort.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant about dailies but, there are differences between a PvE server and a PvP one that people seem to be trivializing but really when you take a deeper look the difference is pretty big.

I honestly think this is blizzards policy to keep farmers/botters from clogging up PvE servers then transferring gold to PvP servers.

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A lot of small servers are already doomed due to the lack of player base with which to provide a stable economy, good raiding pool, and active community. This change would simply give them an out. The problem with the issue you brought up was Blizzard's reaction to the whines for more and more servers. It sounded like lot of them came from people who want to level race again. For the people in overpopulated server, Blizzard implemented a different system to get people moved over to other designated realms to ease the load.

True story. The fact is, WoW is experiencing, to a very, very limited extent, what EQ servers experienced during GOD-Omens etc. A dwindling population on certain servers. The smart thing to do would be to merge low-pop servers (hello, this would be a way to start to fix progression blocks and ruined economies) and offer free transfers from high-pop servers to the newly merged servers for x months. This means that raiding guilds could xfer to server Y, and applicants to that guild who debated dropping 25$ for the chance to app can xfer free and have a few other potential destinations to app as well. There are literally a thousand fix options for the current problem. But there IS a problem (a small-medium sized skilled playerbase does not exist on pve servers, but does on pvp), and Blizzard should at least acknowledge it.

Additionally, the lack of pve->pvp transfers causes a massive glut for middle-highend pvp guilds since they only need X people, and there are 100x applicants availible, mostly not keyed, because there's no room for them in established guilds, it's hard to make their own, and there is a relative lack of mid-high-end guilds on PvE Servers (relative being the key word here, let's not get crazy).

A really good example of this is comparing Destromath(pvp) to Dragonblight(pve), horde side. Destromath has three horde guilds in black temple, one of which is top 30 US Illidan and has been top 50 US since BWL, additionally, destromath has 3-5 guilds in SSC/TK, most of which are not progressed far, but some of which are 4/6 ssc 2/4 tk and the like. That's a total of 9+guilds in ssc/tk actually progressing. There are even more guilds that are farming Karazahn.

On Dragonblight, there is ONE guild in Hyjal/BT, they've killed Rage, but no other progress afaik. One guild working on KT, and two guilds with more than VR down in ssc/tk. That's 4 guilds horde side making any sort of progression. Every single other guild is either stuck on gruul, or simply clearing Karazahn.

These are both day 1 servers. Both saw transfers TO them during the server migrations back in 2005. One is significantly further progressed than the other, and could be more so, considering the glut of quality players without quality guilds (destromath), while the other lacks quality players (seriously, complete lack).

I would kill for the chance to move my warrior to destromath, or both my warrior AND warlock from db/destro to a different pvp server altogether.

*edited for wall-of-text* Please excuse the rambling, I'm having trouble being as articulate as the rest of you today.

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When the initial PvE/PvP division existed, "world PvP" was the only PvP that existed in the game. If you wanted to fight other players, the only possible way for this to happen was to go gank people in the world at large. When the original honor system went in, pre-BGs, you had the Southshore/TM back-and-forth, and you had players roaming around actively looking for players in order to get HKs and honor. That made a huge, huge difference when comparing PvE and PvP servers.

Today, world PvP is virtually dead, and 99% (approximation, but probably not far off) of PvP encounters occur inside a battleground or arena, and those are 100% identical between server types. I leveled an alt to 40 in the past few weeks on a server that is very active and has close to a 1:1 faction ratio. I think I died to PvP five times total, mostly in STV and once in Stonetalon, where I'd get one-shotted by a level 70, run back to my corpse, and go about my business as usual.

Let's say my experience is atypical (and I doubt it, because I played during peak hours and a tagged <EJ> alt is an appealing target, such that virtually every high-level alliance I encountered did stop and try to kill me). Most of us have dozens of days /played. Even if I did spend X hours being camped or corpse-running due to the horrors of leveling on a PvP server, that number still pales in comparison to the total investment in the character.

Also, regarding the "you agreed to the deal when you made your character" argument, when we made our first characters, server transfers didn't even exist at all! No one anticipated them and certainly no one thought when creating a character, "Hmm, if one day server transfers do become available, I bet PvP-->PvE will be allowed but not the reverse, so by selecting PvE as my desired ruleset I am consciously foreclosing the option of ever transferring to a PvP server." Come on.

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First, having been a popular guy with the local Alliance on Detheroc, there were bounties on my head all through the levelling process that absolutely made my life difficult. It's not typical but it still substantially increased my leveling time and affected my gameplay. And having been through STV very soon after launch...that place was like 'Nam. If you were in there, you were "in the shit." It ultimately didn't "break" anything but leveling or questing or farming on a PvP server is fundamentally different. As a Resto Shaman, I am easy pickings for any enterprising DPS classes that decide to gank me while doing my dailies (until 2.3 :D). Screw this "most people don't bother ganking" claim...in my experience most people will immediately gank you if they have an opportunity (especially if they outnumber you) and will carebear it up if they're at a disadvantage. Depending on the situation, my daily quests can take between 20 minutes and 2 hours solely because of PvP. Extrapolate that over months and it adds up.

All that being said, I don't care if they open up these transfers. Hell, it would make some people happy and Blizzard would make some extra cash, so they probably should. But if they're gonna make a philosophical point about it, I can see where they're coming from.

I agree completely. Personally, I don't care whether or not they open these transfers. If they make it so that there is an incentive for people to transfer from pve to certain dead pvp servers, it might actually be a great thing.

But the difference between pve and pvp can be considerable. In vanilla wow I took longer to level because I avoided arathi and stv completely. Now those zones might be dead, but there are at least a couple of alliance that have made a name for themselves in gurubashi for corpse camping lowbies, and they do that to this day. Same thing immediately after the release of tBC. They might not be enough to justify not having transfers, but there was a difference.

And the point someone made about controlling meeting stones is dead on. My guild had to play around with starting raid times because 2 alliance guilds raid ssc at the same time we do, so we lose about 2 or 3 corpse runs to get in (nevermind not being able to summon someone), and we've started bringing repair bots along simply because repairing at the npc outside ssc takes a long time when there are 2 enemy raids there. When kara was a hot zone, I got more hks there than in bgs.

I can only imagine that that will get worse for zul aman, especially for alliance (but it will be bad even for horde, as the front gate is contested and therefore flags you).

Now, I will agree that that is not enough to exclude these transfers, especially since with the 3 month cooldown and the 25 dollar fee I dont think people will exploit these tranfers. But the differences are there.

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That's fair, but if the real PVP server experience comes from controlling the stones and the like, what difference does it make if you start on that server at 70 (when you start running those instances) or at 1, where you're extremely unlikely to truly try to run an instance at level anyway.

The only valid argument I can see against allowing PVE-PVP transfers is that it would probably overcrowd some of the "better" servers. When looking at PVE server progression to find a viable spot for my transfer, there were generally only one or two servers that met my standards as far as having multiple guilds fairly progressed in raid content. Looking at PVP servers, there are several servers with lots of BT/MH guilds. They probably don't want to cause an influx of people to hit them.

Yep, thats fair too. They would eventually have to experience the same. Like I said I am really on the fence. The longer a PvE transfer is on a PvP server the less of an "advantage" they have. The advantage i refer to is ease of grouping/leveling/questing instancing compared to PvP servers. I have had 5 mans break up because when two of us go tto the stone to summon (CoT) alliance controlled it and the rest of the group refused to make their own way to the instance (plus we would have had to wait 10 minutes for them to get there).

I would be fine with PvE -PvP transfers being enabled in the month prior to expansions. Then the PvE players could experience leveling in a PvP environment. Post expansion you run into the same debate that they could have leveled 70-80 on the pve server and got an easy break.

Ultimately though the advantage of a pve-> pvp player will diminish to nothing after the next major content push. Whether that be a new tier instance or an expansion. So in the long run there shouldn't be any huge issue enabling pve - pvp.

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Lets just say I wish I had a few level 70's on a PvE server that I could grind dailies with and then xfer to my PvP server.

Yes, I would go through the trouble to avoid spending an hour trying to make 10g and 2 mediocre potions while being constantly ganked mid escort.

If you're serious about this, I'll point you to some PvP servers that you can already do this on. I'm not kidding. Try Lightninghoof, it's almost a total carebear fest. Probably some servers that are even more carebearish than mine, try playing a hordie on Coilfang with their 80% horde population. That'd make for some easy cash grinding.

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I read your thread on FoH James and I do agree with the premise. As a caveat, I've only ever leveled one character on a PvP server and as an officer on a backwater PvE server I doubt I could ever convince everyone to head off to a PvP server anyhow. So, my background is limited to say the least.

Still, I'd love to be able to recruit PvP server players without the possibility of dooming them to PvE forever. Hell, I'd be fine if they just eliminated PvE servers and flagged zones in ways that made world ganking less of an issue. I love consensual world PvP and absolutely adore it as a method of solving contested spawns and so on. I'm less of a fan of bored 70s camping SV though and although I could have handled it on any of my alts I'm sure, it annoys me when one player can annoy many.

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Screw this "most people don't bother ganking" claim...in my experience most people will immediately gank you if they have an opportunity (especially if they outnumber you) and will carebear it up if they're at a disadvantage. Depending on the situation, my daily quests can take between 20 minutes and 2 hours solely because of PvP. Extrapolate that over months and it adds up.

All that being said, I don't care if they open up these transfers. Hell, it would make some people happy and Blizzard would make some extra cash, so they probably should. But if they're gonna make a philosophical point about it, I can see where they're coming from.

Right, I didn't say people don't gank. I just said that the scenarios people come up with to justify not allowing transfer are generally exaggerated. i.e. except on the really huge servers, there isn't a bunch of lvl 70s sitting in old world zones ganking all the time anymore, and being at the forefront of the leveling curve now with an expansion, the ganking is pretty low considering the density of the players in the zones. It's just reinforcing your point, people only gank when they have an advantage. If the zone is packed, like hellfire the first week of TBC, everyone carebears up because there's a ton of opposing faction right there too.

I also think a lot of people are underestimating how many people would actually transfer TO PvE servers FROM PvP if they knew they weren't going to be locked on PvE servers forever. Progression is generally slower on PvE servers, and I think one big reason is that your potential recruiting pool is so much smaller since no one wants to make a permanent switch like that.

I don't think all the PvE servers would become ghost towns as everyone goes to PvP. I think low population servers would definitely stay the ghost towns that they already are. But, I doubt any medium-high pop servers would suffer huge hits.

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The longer a PvE transfer is on a PvP server the less of an "advantage" they have. The advantage i refer to is ease of grouping/leveling/questing instancing compared to PvP servers. I have had 5 mans break up because when two of us go tto the stone to summon (CoT) alliance controlled it and the rest of the group refused to make their own way to the instance (plus we would have had to wait 10 minutes for them to get there).

On the other side of this (rather hysterical) situation, lies the situation on PvE servers, where the lack of people even attuned for heroic's makes getting a group together an hour long affair(even if you are a geared tank), often interrupted by people bitching about wait times, afks, etc. I've done the group thing on my warlock on a pvp server, it's not as bad as finding a group on a PvE server.

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When the original honor system went in, pre-BGs, you had the Southshore/TM back-and-forth, and you had players roaming around actively looking for players in order to get HKs and honor. That made a huge, huge difference when comparing PvE and PvP servers.

To be fair (and not that it impacts your overall point whatsoever) back in those days TM/SS was incredibly active on PvE servers as well. Even though we were outnumbered 3:1 or worse, we had a heck of a lot of fun defending the hill of doom from various bubble-consecrate waves for days on end. Well, actually, we'd lose the town pretty often and slink off until the alliance figured out that razing the place meant and end to fun and the cycle began anew.

TM/SS PvP was pretty silly but it certainly was fun too. It had massive flaws of course but I did enjoy it more than BG PvP at least.

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My home server Blackrock, is still as viscious and gank prone in the traditional areas today, as it was upon release day. Depending on how bored the opposite faction is, some days it is impossible to level in areas like STV and TM.

That said, I'm in favour of open server transfers regardless of type.

Speaking as a fellow Blackrock denizen, I will certainly second the notion that the leading cause of death for any horde toon under level 65 or so is a night elf hunter by the name of Xsniprwlfmoonx or some variant thereof. I have only played WoW on PvP servers, so I've come to accept the fact that if some bored 70 running around STV decides my poor alt rogue no longer deserves to live, I'll get ganked and that's that.

I agree with the OP insofar as the PvE -> PvP transfer prohibition seems largely outdated and irrelevant at this point. You do not stand to save any meaningful time at all by levelling on a gank-proof server. The popular argument runs something like PvP players are better than PvE players, and Blizzard has always been OK with letting players "disadvantage" themselves, either by PvPing on an offspec or jumping into a world in which you could possibly be outclassed by your competition.

My one trepidation with regards to this is the fact that some of the "big name" PvP servers could get a fair few transfers to them. Blackrock certainly doesn't need more players, and I imagine those of you on Mal'Ganis feel much the same way.

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My one trepidation with regards to this is the fact that some of the "big name" PvP servers could get a fair few transfers to them. Blackrock certainly doesn't need more players, and I imagine those of you on Mal'Ganis feel much the same way.

Easily solved by disabling those servers as transfer targets. If they don't need more players, they don't need more PvP players either.

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Having leveled on a few different servers, both pvp and pve, has made me realize that it's not so much about what kind of sever you're leveling on as it's about what the player base on said server is like. I'm currently in the progress of leveling an alt on a pvp server, I haven't been ganked more then I can keep track off so far. On the other hand when I leveled up on a full pvp realm I wanted to gouge my eyes out after spending some time in STV and Searing Gorge, but this was during periods when lots of people were leveling in these zones (New server and the days after the BC release). These days, with almost empty zones, the argument of easier leveling falls pretty flat. Now as a holy paladin at 70 trying to farm motes, what I wouldn't have given for the ability to farm without constantly being jumped by alliance players. This is the only real difference that's noticeable to me that still exists in a real way.

What I do think is keeping this rule in place might be the fact that allowing people to transfer away from their currently dying pve servers could cause a sudden influx to the "popular" servers and this is something that usually brings along the same old problems with lag, server crashes and disconnects during raids. Now one could argue that an open end server transfer might actually help said pve servers in the way that they could recruit of pvp servers, but I still believe that the fear of the worst case scenario is what's keeping this old rule in place.

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On Warsong there is always a continual battle at raid gathering point and whoever has the largest numbers controls the 25 man summoning stone. SSC if your faction isn't in control can take up to 2-3 death runs to get from the water to the portal. In Netherstorm if you don't control the stone you may have to wait 10 minutes for your 60% mount people to either take the Flightpath from Shatt to the eye.

Strangely enough, I don't remember having to wait for people to fly out to EPL when we didn't have warlocks standing around outside of Naxx. If only there was still some way for people to be at the raid instance on time without getting a summon.

Repairs can also get frustrating, members of both faction in the eye love to park their mounts on the repair guy making it very difficult to click on the repair guy without accidentally attacking the alliance player.

Because of how flag mechanics work, the exact same thing is possible on PvE servers. If clicking on a NPC without attacking an enemy player is so hard for you, you could always just turn off automatic dismounting.

The trivial added difficulty to raiding would only be significant if PvE servers had significantly higher progression than PvP servers. It's not like you'd be able to raid on a PvE server, then transfer to a PvP server and dominate -- if anything, you'd do it the other way around. In addition, if PvE -> PvP is bad because PvE is easier, then shouldn't high pop -> low pop also be forbidden? On Tich I can trivially get multiple heroic pugs per day which have a good chance of clearing the instance, and there are dozens of Kara pugs which will clear most or all of the instance. My Shaman has only been 70 for a month, but I still could probably find a server where I outgear anyone not in the one raid guild.

Lets just say I wish I had a few level 70's on a PvE server that I could grind dailies with and then xfer to my PvP server.

Yes, I would go through the trouble to avoid spending an hour trying to make 10g and 2 mediocre potions while being constantly ganked mid escort.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant about dailies but, there are differences between a PvE server and a PvP one that people seem to be trivializing but really when you take a deeper look the difference is pretty big.

I've been attacked while doing the escort once, and it was when I stole the prisoner from a group of four horde waiting for the last person to fly over. Clearly I shouldn't be able to transfer from Tichondrius to a less carebear PvP server.

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The trivial added difficulty to raiding would only be significant if PvE servers had significantly higher progression than PvP servers.

And of course, they don't. In fact, the reverse is true. PvP servers have far more progression guilds than PvE servers. Especially Horde-side, making it near-impossible to find a decent guild if you want to raid.

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No interest of mine to derail this thread, yet I'd like to play Devil's Advocate in support of the person you're attempting to educate and remind you to try that in a royally swamped BG queue area like the one in org and see how easy it is to click on the NPC's bar when it constantly jumps around as players move around and the bars constantly reposition. Sometimes your method works, sometimes it doesn't. A raid of jerks sitting on an NPC is better handled by /target name.

Obviously you have never played chase the moving bar when your 20 other fellow raid members are also there trying to repair. I have adopted a hoover method where I do not land so that if i mis-click i will not attack. It still adds frustration and daily difficult.

I use Aloft to disable all friendly name tags apart from NPC's.

/derail

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If I can give probably an outside-to-this-forum experience, I have a level 60 warrior collecting dust on an RP-PvE server because RP-PvP was not made available at the start of WoW. I want them to enable these transfers because they made a mistake in not enabling these server types at the start of the game, and I was forced to choose between a regular PvP server--not for me--and an RP server, a mildly more palatable but less than ideal solution. When they opened the new server types, off I went to my new home. Bye bye warrior I spent a year and a half on.

I understand the reasoning behind the initial decision to not allow the transfers, but as everyone has already said, the PvP levelling experience nowadays is hardly burdensome to the point of unfairly giving advantage to any PvE server transfers. C'mon, let me bring my warrior to a place where he's PLAYED again. Please?

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