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JamesVZ

PvE to PvP transfers are long overdue.

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The problem here is that you assume world pvp being dead and irrelevant. But I think its still in blizzards todo-book that world pvp gains its meaning. If we had any reasons or fun activity created for world pvp and world pvp obejctives, this argument would go back to the STV ganking spree difficulty. I rolled on PvP server to have pvp. I made the decision that I will accept what ever horror storys and ganking sprees it gives to me, its still pvp server. Unfortunately for me, that isnt reality as world pvp isnt fun. You cant change the reasons of PvP tag on server name purely because Blizzard havent managed to "fix" the world pvp yet.

PvP in the server name should alert players and create feeling of danger when moving around world. Thats what pvp is about, you are vulnerable to enemy faction at any given time. You are vulnerable to ganking every second you grind motes. If and when (hopefully) blizzard manages to bring life back to world pvp, transfering from PvE to PvP would gain the vanilla wow status.

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The problem here is that you assume world pvp being dead and irrelevant. But I think its still in blizzards todo-book that world pvp gains its meaning.

This is kind of a lose/lose situation. To encourage world PvP, they add in PvP objective points...all of which are very easily avoided. To not make them avoidable would go directly against their philosophy regarding PvP -- that it should be optional. Or if they do what they have discussed and make certain zones perma-PvP flagged, well, you're no better or worse off on a PvE server.

Encouraging world PvP at this point is a dead horse, the game is far too large to accomodate it, and the bottom line honor gain rate for it is far too slow to promote it. This:

PvP in the server name should alert players and create feeling of danger when moving around world. Thats what pvp is about, you are vulnerable to enemy faction at any given time. You are vulnerable to ganking every second you grind motes.

Will never ever be the case again, despite how much any of us would like it to be. But even if they somehow did manage to pull it off, we're talking about years down the line here, not months, which is plenty of time for the general populace to stomach the idea of PvE to PvP transfers.

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The main crux of the issue for the people who on these forums is its impact on raiding. Fully 75% of top raiding guilds are on PvP servers. I don't know how far down this imbalance extends, but it goes through at least the top 200 US guilds. This goes entirely contrary to Blizzard's stated of goal of not punishing players for mistakes made at character creation or early on. You make a decision to role on a PvE server and you instantly cut off 75% of your raiding options. Of course you don't realize this until 6 months later or whatever. It is absolutely stupid that this issue that should have nothing to do with raiding has EVERYTHING to do with the options of someone trying to find a guild.

This needs to be changed. There is no debate. It's a stupid rule that has lived way past it's time. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees, and even harder pressed to find someone with a good reason to disagree.

As a leader of a successful PvE server guild I don't even have a vested interest in seeing this changed. I'm happy in my guild and there's very guilds above mine on the ladder. But still, the idea that people are limited because of this dumb rule annoys the hell out of me.

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If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.

I think that ensuring that all level 70s on a PvP server have levelled as PvP is a reasonable goal. That's the price you pay for being top dog. The gankee becomes the ganker, and the circle of life continues.

(For the record, my first character was on Burning Blade, a PvP server. I've been corpse-camped, ganked in Sun Rock Village, etc. I switched to PvE when I was level 50 and the honor system first came out. That was a most un-fun time as I was worth honor to the 60s.)

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You make a decision to role on a PvE server and you instantly cut off 75% of your raiding options. Of course you don't realize this until 6 months later or whatever. It is absolutely stupid that this issue that should have nothing to do with raiding has EVERYTHING to do with the options of someone trying to find a guild.

It's more like you cut off 90% of your potential raiding options seeing as one cannot transfer faction either. Particularly if you rolled horde pve.

I agree entirely with what you and others here are saying: getting ganked in STV or while doing dailies is a miniscule part of the game at this point - pvp *is* arenas now. For better or worse. Compared to the proportion of your game time spent raiding, or doing dungeons with your friends or organized pvp (arena/bgs) where server-type is meaningless --- getting hit outside karazhan is really irrelevant.

Keeping the transfer restriction to preserve a game element that represents 0.01% of your time at the cost of significantly reducing your options for raid recruiting/guild hunting is definitely counterproductive at this point. Unless getting ganked in TM once on the way to 70 is such an amazingly good experience that it makes up for the 200days /played at max level not able to find an appropriate match for a guild because your faction/server combination is simply too sparse.

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If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.

Nobody is so hardcore that spending 200 hours leveling--followed by another several hundred gearing up in 5-mans and then a stepping-stone guild--is no big deal.

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If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.

BT/MH flagging pretty much eliminates rerolling as a real option.

Nobody in a raiding guild cares if you've been ganked. Sorry. They care if you have your vials.

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If the issue is primarily limited to high-end raiding guilds, I don't understand why rerolling a new character is not an acceptable option. We're the hardcore, most of us have levelled up multiple characters, and with the changes in 2.3, levelling is going to become even easier.

For some reason I think that some people have what's called a "main" that they spend most of their time on, with all kinds of "gear" and "rep" and things like that, that can take months or even years to obtain. Completely abandoning such a character and all its associated goodies that one has spent so much time and effort on is a very painful prospect, especially when faced with starting completely over.

When you reroll from PvE->PvP with the intention of making your PvP character your main, you are abandoning the time and effort you've spent on your original character. You can't use your PvE character for anything useful anymore at all; you can't give your new character money, or stockpiled gear or tradeskill items, nothing. You can't guild your PvE character with your new PvP character and play it as an alt during downtime and still keep up with local happenings. Nothing. Your PvE character is effectively gone for all intents and purposes. Now, for people with comparatively little time invested in any one character (altaholics, chronic rerollers, etc) this isn't a big deal, and I'll bet good money that the vast majority of PvE->PvP transfer objectors belong in those categories. But for people with years of investment in their primary PvE character, rerolling on a completely new server carries such a penalty that it is almost totally unpalatable. The only time I can see a PvE-er rerolling with little or no angst is when their community (guild, mainly) collapses and they have nothing holding them there (since without their community their character is useless anyway).

Now, one could argue that they could just transfer to a new PvE server and join a new guild, and lots of them do, but you have to remember that the raiding scene on PvE servers is pathetic, and there is zero guarantee that they'll find their familiar and comfortable niche again. One could argue that there is no guarantee with a PvE->PvP transfer, either, but what one can't argue is that PvE->PvP transfers would expand these peoples' options by more than 100%, and probably closer to 200%, simply by virtue of there being so many more viable raiding guilds on an equal number of PvP servers.

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BT/MH flagging pretty much eliminates rerolling as a real option.

Nobody in a raiding guild cares if you've been ganked. Sorry. They care if you have your vials.

But if you're keyed, you were in a guild that was good enough to get into T6 content. So why is it so necessary to go to a PvP server?

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But if you're keyed, you were in a guild that was good enough to get into T6 content. So why is it so necessary to go to a PvP server?

Personal reasons for wanting to change to any server are irrelevant to the topic. The issue is why isn't the door open in the first place? Not a case-by-case as to why someone would want to walk through it.

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With the introduction of accelerated leveling in 2.3, why actually pay $25 to blizzard for the trouble? Personally, I think the leveling experience is different, on a PvP server you tend to have a more situational awareness, you often look behind, and wary in neutral cities. IMO, the leveling is very different.

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I fully agree that it's long overdue.

I've rolled PvE back then because, guess what, a friend dragged me into WoW and of course I started on his server. Then I dragged my girlfriend in, ofc on the same server.

I wouldn't even mind (and I wonder why no one suggested it) that you get some kind of penalty for transferring PvE->PvP to stop the goldselling/whatever.

- No unbound items (or at least no epics)

- not more than a couple hundred gold

I'd have my character with the equip I need to get some money again, big deal. I guess hardly anyone would really roll PvE just to transfer to PvP, most just felt the need/urge to do it for a long time.

I've never gotten an alt past 30 on any other server because I used to chat with the same people, so of course I would level on my realm and THEN transfer at 70. atm I wouldn't even do it at all, but I'd love to have the choice...

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But if you're keyed, you were in a guild that was good enough to get into T6 content. So why is it so necessary to go to a PvP server?

There's plenty of legitimate reasons. Guild fell apart, hate guild, kicked out of guild, want to join a guild with friends, want to join an even more progressed guild. Why are you making strawman arguments against allowing PvE->PvP transfer? The fact is 75% of high end guilds (and by high end I mean pretty much any guild that's killed Kael'thas) are on PvP servers.

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I've always rather admired Blizzard for standing firmly by a principle and not caving in the face of expediency. I like the fact that they want you to experience a PvP server from level 1 or not at all. If you want to be top dog on a PvP server, you have to start at the bottom. It's a noble concept and is the kind of decision that seperates Blizzard from the more bottom-line driven companies.

That said, I have nothing against transfers being opened. In fact, it would probably be fun to have a large influx of 70's eager for lots of world PvP on Emerald Dream, where I have a 70 rogue (ignoring for the moment server capacity). I can't say that I'm a big fan of having a low level alt of mine camped by someone who had just transferred their big bad 70 over from a PvE server, though - not that I would know where they came from.

As for end game options, that is a matter of perspective. Sure, you have more options if you rolled PvP, but does that really mean "You don't have enough options if you rolled PvE." You still have many dozens of servers and thousands of guilds available to you. Simply saying "But I'd have MORE options if they enabled PvE -> PvP" doesn't justify it.

A quick observation on the state of world pvp: Recently I've been playing a 30-something shadowpriest on a PvP server, and a 30-something mage on a PvE server. I've been playing them concurrently so I might do the same quests on one character that I had done on the other the day before, so the contrast between server types has been very noticable. The difference is really quite significant - my priest gets ganked, camped, and I frequently log over to my 70 to clear out the griefers. Astranaar would frequently get "locked down" by a horde guild, making it difficult to turn in quests, repair, or even fly to another zone.

My mage of course simply goes from quest to quest completely unhindered.

Obviously, the PvE - PvP difference is nothing like it once was, but to claim it is an inconsequential difference at this point overstates the case.

To restate, I am indifferent as to whether they allow the transfers or not. But I certainly see and respect their reasons for not allowing it. True, the climate of the game has progressed such that it's no longer the important distinction it once was, but I would actually be a bit sad to see that distinction obliterated with finality.

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Encouraging world PvP at this point is a dead horse, the game is far too large to accomodate it, and the bottom line honor gain rate for it is far too slow to promote it.

Daily quest.

"Get 10 Honorable Kills in [random zone picked each day]"

Reward: pile o' gold, pile o' honor.

Hilarity ensues.

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Daily quest.

"Get 10 Honorable Kills in [random zone picked each day]"

Reward: pile o' gold, pile o' honor.

Hilarity ensues.

Now we would have reason for those old AV items!

"Daily quest #112352: Chop off 10 Nightelf heads and bring em to me"

One can only wish for fun world pvp. Damn this is getting detrailed, but for an obvious reason.

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To me, it just looks like you guys want something (endgame access to players with the Killer subtype) without paying the price (levelling with those same Killer players).

You're trying to justify it by saying the price is negligible, but I disagree. I've done both to max level, and levelling as PvE is far easier than levelling as PvP. You knew the choices when you made your character, it's pretty much the very first decision you are faced with in this game.

If you are unsatisfied with the choice you made, you always have the option to reroll.

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Having leveled a Priest and Rogue to 70 on a PVE server (Khadgar Horde which is extremely horde underpopulated at Oceanic Times) and a Hunter to 70 on a PVP Server (Frostmourne Oceanic Horde PVP). I would love to transfer my other Horde Characters to PVP if it were possible and I find playing on PVE servers outdoors outside of raiding extremely boring (no real danger at all) but I think these points need to be considered:

1. Many PVE Server players are not as good at pvp as they think. I think there is a more a risk of people transferring to PVP who are not ready or understand what it will/can be like and then even stopping cancelling due to the fact that they are not used to being situationally aware constantly watching their back etc.

2. Low level healers - If there was an option to level on PVE and transfer to PVP many people rolling healers could choose the easy option and lvl PVE then transfer leading to a shortage of healers at low levels on PVP servers.

3. Asshats - Many lvl 70s who Fail at PVE and PVP and are on a PVE server at the moment who have never experienced being ganked at 20-70 could transfer and lacking empathy (perhaps we need some kind of Voight-Kampff test to allow transfers ) for the people are leveling.

4. Death of the Horde on PVE Servers - Population imbalances are bad enough with many PVE realms 20-40% horde if they had an option to Transfer to a PVP server with the opposite ratio many would jump at that opportunity.

I'd love for PVE-PVP transfers to be implemented as I am continually frustrated on a PVE server which has a low horde population.

Daily quest.

"Get 10 Honorable Kills in [random zone picked each day]"

Reward: pile o' gold, pile o' honor.

Hilarity ensues.

Classic idea would be a lot of fun :)

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To me, it just looks like you guys want something (endgame access to players with the Killer subtype) without paying the price (levelling with those same Killer players).

You're trying to justify it by saying the price is negligible, but I disagree. I've done both to max level, and levelling as PvE is far easier than levelling as PvP. You knew the choices when you made your character, it's pretty much the very first decision you are faced with in this game.

If you are unsatisfied with the choice you made, you always have the option to reroll.

I have also leveled on both, and the difference was minor. Yeah I got ganked a few times in STV. So goddamn what? What is the big deal about that? Whereas it is a HUGE penalty to any people who come to desire raiding on a PvE server. Rerolling is not an easy task. This is even more true for people who have already entrenched characters with gear, keys, and rep on PvE servers. "Rerolling" to their former state would take hundreds of days worth of work. For anyone moderately progressed in raiding you can't just reroll and get in another guild at a similar level of progression. You have to work your way all the way back at that ladder, and that takes even longer than leveling. And for what? Because it took an extra day to hit 70? Are you really being serious here?

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I have also leveled on both, and the difference was minor. Yeah I got ganked a few times in STV. So goddamn what? What is the big deal about that? Whereas it is a HUGE penalty to any people who come to desire raiding on a PvE server. Rerolling is not an easy task. This is even more true for people who have already entrenched characters with gear, keys, and rep on PvE servers. "Rerolling" to their former state would take hundreds of days worth of work. For anyone moderately progressed in raiding you can't just reroll and get in another guild at a similar level of progression. You have to work your way all the way back at that ladder, and that takes even longer than leveling. And for what? Because it took an extra day to hit 70? Are you really being serious here?

Okay, how about a compromise then:

"You may transfer a character to any server where you have another character of equal or higher level."

Preserves the "rite of passage" idea inherent in PvP servers, but allows you to take your main to a PvP server.

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Perhaps those who are loathe to reroll because of abandoning characters with progression, reputation, and other benefits of being established should consider doing so just before the WotLK expansion is released. This way their new characters will be on an even playing field with everyone else.

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Okay, how about a compromise then:

"You may transfer a character to any server where you have another character of equal or higher level."

Preserves the "rite of passage" idea inherent in PvP servers, but allows you to take your main to a PvP server.

There is no "rite of passage" idea inherent to a PvP server.

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I have also leveled on both, and the difference was minor. Yeah I got ganked a few times in STV. So goddamn what? What is the big deal about that? Whereas it is a HUGE penalty to any people who come to desire raiding on a PvE server. Rerolling is not an easy task. This is even more true for people who have already entrenched characters with gear, keys, and rep on PvE servers. "Rerolling" to their former state would take hundreds of days worth of work. For anyone moderately progressed in raiding you can't just reroll and get in another guild at a similar level of progression. You have to work your way all the way back at that ladder, and that takes even longer than leveling. And for what? Because it took an extra day to hit 70? Are you really being serious here?

Your argument is gravely undermined by Blizzard's expansion philosophy. There is basically a gigantic reset that occurs with each one.

Anyone who is serious enough about WoW to want into a bleeding-edge guild on a PvP server can easily roll a new character, level to 70, and then be on the exact same playing field as every other 70 the day WotLK goes live.

Also, you paint a picture of complete desolation in the PvE raiding scene that is obviously false. Being on a PvE server still leaves you with a lot of options if you're willing to transfer.

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Your argument is gravely undermined by Blizzard's expansion philosophy. There is basically a gigantic reset that occurs with each one.

Anyone who is serious enough about WoW to want into a bleeding-edge guild on a PvP server can easily roll a new character, level to 70, and then be on the exact same playing field as every other 70 the day WotLK goes live.

Also, you paint a picture of complete desolation in the PvE raiding scene that is obviously false. Being on a PvE server still leaves you with a lot of options if you're willing to transfer.

No one is talking about WotLK. So what happens after WotLK comes out and 3-4 months down the road the same problem comes up for someone else? They should just wait until the next expansion?

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Agreed with the OP and many others in this thread. Its long overdue. The amount of people that would 'exploit?' this to there true advantage would be very few. While not much money to actually transfer, its still a lot of trouble to go through to get a minor boost in leveling speed 'at best'.

The benefits are clear as day.

-Bigger player pool to recruit from

-Blizzard makes more money

-And of course PvE players don't have to make a difficult decision that might eventually cost them a lot of time re-leveling on a PvP server

Although much more prone to 'exploitive' behaviour, I believe that they should just allow players to roll multiple factions on a PvP server as well. Of course there are a lot more reasons to be against this (and rightfully so). Thats a different thread, so i'll leave it at that =P

Regardless, remove the restrictions on character transfers from PvE -> PvP servers.

edit: And a rite of passage? People please. I've(massive others as well) leveled multiple characters on high population servers when the game was released, expansion was released and other characters when bored high level characters were lurking around. From my experience leveling in TBC on a PvP server was very easy. Everyone minded there own business as they were more focused on leveling up and instancing then causing shit. Even when you level a character months after the race to level cap you are just going to get the occasional death from PvP. Which in the end results in a few extra hours of leveling time because you rolled on a PvP server. Hardly game breaking.

Of course experience differs depending on the server, but it seriously can't be that bad. Some of you make it sound like you run into the bored assholes everytime you try to level hoping to make your leveling experience miserable for hours on end.

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