Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

giansm

Raiding as a Tree

1537 posts in this topic

I use DotTimer for all my timer needs. I have an spriest and affliction lock also, so having one mod that would do all timed spells was a plus for me. Prior to that, I used HotCandy and was happy with it as well.

DotTimer is apparently really spammy on mod comm channels, so Antiarc (of Omen fame) tells anyone he sees using it to do /comm and uncheck everything. This won't affect your personal use of the mod in any way, and stop filling up you mod comm so that other mods that need it can communicate properly.

DotTimer doesn't reorder casts by default, but that is also configurable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...This number is more than twice as much, and damage mitigation is inherently "safer" than healing (since the damage never happens), so devotion blows away tree aura for the MT.

Honestly said, comparing auras of different classes is rather pointless.

First, because you can have both auras on the tank at the same time. Second, because the usability of an aura is highly dependent on the situation.

For example, on encouners like Hydross Devotion Aura is completly useless. So ToL beats Devotion for this fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Honestly said, comparing auras of different classes is rather pointless.

No it is not, First of all, you might not get all auras.

As pointed out, if you've got 1 tank, and in the example warrior.

you can have 4 other players with auras.

you can get warlock/shaman/paladin/tree

But, you can also get warlock/paladin/2xtree

Also, if you've got 2 tanks in the group, let's say they're both warriors.

then you can only pick 3.

Don't forget that things change if you go with a paladin or druid tank. Example, a druid might not get anything at all out of the extra armor and he will still need a warrior in the group for hp shout.

Just to me, it doesn't make any sence to have a shaman in the tank group, first of all, it's a waste of heroism (if you can't temp swap him that is). but also an imp stoneskin totem reduce an attack by 52 damage pre mitigation. 18000 armor would otherwice reduce that by 63% = 33 less damage per hit.

I'm not sure what a raid boss hits for post mitigation but it's well 4-6k, 33/4000 = 0,825% damage reduction.

Further more, the auras works differently, +hp will only make it easier for the healers to heal and will prevent the person from dying by spike damage.

Damage mitigation will reduce the damage and will thereby be one of the best ways, as you won't need to heal up the reduced damage, will lower the chance that the tank dies by spike damage. The tank will require less heals.

Tree aura will make heals on the tank be more effective. This will also lower the chance that the tank dies from spike damage (as the tank should have more HP due to the heals he just got). May cause overheal and thereby loss of effectivity.

I dubt this is anything new, I just miss an analysis of how they work, so you just don't go with the "same old, same old" and don't think about, example, that a bear might not get anything from devo, (not sure about that but our bear was very close to 75% in ssc/tk gear)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would this be a proper place to discuss DS healkins? I doubt there's enough of us to justify our own thread.

I've been pleasantly surprised by healkin spec in raids. I've only been able to bring mine on T5 raids twice, but Morogrim saw me towards the top of the pack and I was our strongest consistent FLK healer.

One thing that I find vexing is situations where there isn't a tank taking oodles of damage. For example, my main healing assignment was FLK's hunter guardian last night. Once he went down, I moved over to the healer guardian to assist on raid healing. And felt like a deer in headlights. HT is too slow to react to random damage, so I was just popping lifeblooms and rejuvs all over the place. It was sustainable (massive regen and an alchemist's stone) but just felt supremely inefficient. What do you trees do when you raid heal? Do you have any strategies/tips?

For reference, Wow Web Stats is the WWS. Please do not criticize the raid's performance; this is just to troubleshoot personal mistakes/issues.

Edit: One tradeoff that I've made with this talent build is subtlety vs nature's focus. I went the subtlety route to lessen aggro-deaths in heroic and some raid fights, but the lack of pushback interruption is a liability in rare situations (heroic fights with periodic ranged AoE; Illhoof). Looking ahead at T5 content, is pushback interruption something I should be worried about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've found Evocation2 to be really handy for swapping in spirit gear for innervates. It does auto-swap back at the end of innervates which could potentially cause GCD issues, but for me at least forgetting to swap out of my spirit gear was a bigger problem. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the main reason I was comparing devotion and tree aura was because someone asked. Also as Nahiag points out, if you have two tanks that you want to receive good buffs the group can be somewhat tight since only three auras will fit. It helps to know which auras are best to put in.

About shamans in the MT group: they are mostly for Windfury and Strength of Earth, in order to buff threat generation. They can be swapped out for heroism (there should be someone you can give assist that can handle this) or if a lot of people are threat-capped the heroism can go to the tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been pleasantly surprised by healkin spec in raids. I've only been able to bring mine on T5 raids twice, but Morogrim saw me towards the top of the pack and I was our strongest consistent FLK healer.

You should try tree healing for 1-2 raids to see the difference. IF you are primary healer and not only helping at healer shortage of course.

One thing that I find vexing is situations where there isn't a tank taking oodles of damage. For example, my main healing assignment was FLK's hunter guardian last night. Once he went down, I moved over to the healer guardian to assist on raid healing. And felt like a deer in headlights. HT is too slow to react to random damage, so I was just popping lifeblooms and rejuvs all over the place. It was sustainable (massive regen and an alchemist's stone) but just felt supremely inefficient. What do you trees do when you raid heal? Do you have any strategies/tips?

I'd imagine it's rare for a tree to exclusively raid heal, can't remember when I did that last time. But in a one-two tank situation there are many gcd-s to be spared for raidhealing. I use mainly LB for that, single stack and letting it bloom. Depends on the encounter of course if I know that the incoming damage is enough to kill a player, I use the rejuv+swiftmend or NS+regrowth combo. Highly situational. But the main tool is LB. :)

Edit: One tradeoff that I've made with this talent build is subtlety vs nature's focus. I went the subtlety route to lessen aggro-deaths in heroic and some raid fights, but the lack of pushback interruption is a liability in rare situations (heroic fights with periodic ranged AoE; Illhoof). Looking ahead at T5 content, is pushback interruption something I should be worried about?

No. Your main problem will be moving, not interrupts. Your mobility is highly gimped with such a long casttime main spell. But with your healing output you shouldn't have problems with aggro either, so it's just personal taste what you pick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My guild has me primarily healing raid heals in 25 mans. I am a ToL healer. I was reading another thread today and was wondering if my guild having me in a position where I'm assigned purely to raid heals is a waste of my healing? When I apply HoTs to a raid target a pally usually ends up healing over them anyway, so they just fizzle out and I waste my mana. Should I tell my Guild Leader that she should have me rolling LBs on the tanks?

I've been contemplating this for a while and I need some help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My guild has me primarily healing raid heals in 25 mans. I am a ToL healer. I was reading another thread today and was wondering if my guild having me in a position where I'm assigned purely to raid heals is a waste of my healing? When I apply HoTs to a raid target a pally usually ends up healing over them anyway, so the just fizzle out and I waste my mana. Should I tell my Guild Leader that she should have me rolling LBs on the tanks?

I've been contemplating this for a while and I need some help.

You can do both. Typically in any fight where there are less than 4 tanks, I use my spare GCDs to raid heal. There's really no reason not to, unless you have mana concerns.

I'd suggest coordinating with other healers in your raid group with mods to assist in raid healing efficiency. We all use Grid with the incoming heals indicator as well as indicators for various HoTs. It's not perfect, but you'll see a considerable improvement if you can get them on board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

nalinal: Judging by your gear, your guild is probably on Gruul/Mag/Early SSC? On Gruul, druids are very good on the MT (silence) and the raid (you have a long time between shatters for lifebloom/rejuvenation to patch up the damage, and you can heal on the run). You can do both: when we did Gruul I would usually patch up shatter damage solo while also keeping hots on the MT. On Mag, if your guild attempts to keep him banished for the full duration then you are good at keeping up the cube-clickers with lifeblooms on all of them, and you are also effective when focusing on the MT using the standard "single tank" healing style.

In SSC if you use a multi-tank strategy on Hydross (we had four tanks) then you are best off healing them while the adds are up. Once the adds die, raid damage is low enough that you should be able to keep hots on the MT while also raid healing. On Lurker I don't think it really matters who you heal since in our experience at least, nobody is really in danger of dying except from their own spout-related mistakes. I've done both raid healing and tank healing on that fight and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference either way. On Tidewalker you probably want to be on the tank in order to smooth out the spike damage (although I got stuck doing watery graves every time).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
nalinal: Judging by your gear, your guild is probably on Gruul/Mag/Early SSC? On Gruul, druids are very good on the MT (silence) and the raid (you have a long time between shatters for lifebloom/rejuvenation to patch up the damage, and you can heal on the run). You can do both: when we did Gruul I would usually patch up shatter damage solo while also keeping hots on the MT. On Mag, if your guild attempts to keep him banished for the full duration then you are good at keeping up the cube-clickers with lifeblooms on all of them, and you are also effective when focusing on the MT using the standard "single tank" healing style.

In SSC if you use a multi-tank strategy on Hydross (we had four tanks) then you are best off healing them while the adds are up. Once the adds die, raid damage is low enough that you should be able to keep hots on the MT while also raid healing. On Lurker I don't think it really matters who you heal since in our experience at least, nobody is really in danger of dying except from their own spout-related mistakes. I've done both raid healing and tank healing on that fight and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference either way. On Tidewalker you probably want to be on the tank in order to smooth out the spike damage (although I got stuck doing watery graves every time).

Yes we have Gruul's and Kara on Farm and are just getting in to SSC/TK we've downed VR a few times and are working on Solarian but we are having some problems keeping up the missile targets (especially during the end of the add phase and around 25% due to mana issues). I feel like on Solarian I am regrowthing the the targets a lot and wasting mana because the other healers are healing people to full and my HoTs can't do much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes we have Gruul's and Kara on Farm and are just getting in to SSC/TK we've downed VR a few times and are working on Solarian but we are having some problems keeping up the missile targets (especially during the end of the add phase and around 25% due to mana issues). I feel like on Solarian I am regrowthing the the targets a lot and wasting mana because the other healers are healing people to full and my HoTs can't do much.

Unfortunately the double-soak strategy is a thing of the past, since that assignment was ideal for tree druids. If you use a tank on Solarian to take the melee hits, you can just heal him, which you should be able to do solo since she hits weakly and spends most of her time missiling anyway. Druids are the worst raid healers on Solarian due to the nature of the damage: shamans and priests are good at cleaning up the AOE moonfire, and paladins and priests are good at healing the missiles. I found that when healing the raid on that boss, I was best off ignoring the missile target and just patching up people that were 1000-2000 hp down using a lifebloom. If your other healers are quick, it's difficult to make a difference on the missiles since regrowth has a long cast time compared to flash of light and flash heal, not to mention that priests have prayer of mending and power word: shield. By patching up people that are somewhat less than full hp, you increase the odds of survival against future missiles.

If you're having people die to missiles at the end of the add phase, it may help if someone calls out "Solarian is back" when she reappears. Sometimes people don't notice right away. Concerning your mana issues, you are always going to have problems if you try to spam regrowth without a shadow priest. Even with a shadow priest and potions you can lose mana fairly quickly. If you must use regrowth you can consider downranking to 8 or so, since it still heals for enough to save people and it costs a lot less mana.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find Lifebloom to be quite effective as a raid healing tool. Even if people are overwriting your HoTs, the incredible speed at which these can be laid out means that most of them will actually pan out for the full healing. It really eases the burden on the other healers. I typically get a whole lot of healing done just spamming Lifebloom on people for Solarian. It also helps to toss one on the missle target too. This certainly isn't going to keep them from dying if your main missle healers are slow, but often times, you'll find that they end up switching to her new target before her old one gets topped off. Lifebloom handles this nicely.

Here's a recent WWS as an example: Wow Web Stats

EDIT: Abella is my druid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done the math on this in the healing trinket thread, a long time ago actually. That number you came up with is really low; I have 830 Spirit fully buffed and I get 1500+ (Minimum, my mp5 fully buffed while not casting is actually over 600, which would make the procs over 1800+ mana per.) mana per proc out of it. 15 seconds would be three ticks of 100% mp5 (while not casting, obviously), so you'd have to have a REALLY low amount of spirit/mp5 while not casting to get the output you're getting/calculating.

A recent example of mine would be Anatheron. When fully buffed, I get 676 mp5 while not casting. It procced 6 times during an Anatheron kill that was 8 minutes long. So that's 2028 mana per proc, which means I got 12,168 mana out of the Card during that fight. That comes out to...1521 per minute, or 126.75 mp5.

You have 405 mp5 while not casting, so the value of the BD card to you would be 1215 mana per proc. I think you're undervaluing that Blue Dragon card. How are you doing the math on it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You have 405 mp5 while not casting, so the value of the BD card to you would be 1215 mana per proc. I think you're undervaluing that Blue Dragon card. How are you doing the math on it?

I don't actually have a Blue Dragon card so the calculations are pure theorycraft from my perspective. I think the main difference between my math and yours is that I used the Spirit contribution (listed under the tooltip for Spirit) instead of the "while not casting" mana regen number, which is the sum of the Spirit contribution and the amount of pure mp5 on your gear. The reason for this is that I don't think the Blue Dragon card affects your pure mp5-based regen at all, it just allows 100% of your Spirit-based regen to work. My character screen says the Spirit contribution is 285 mp5, and since I have 120 pure mp5 on my gear my mana regen number is 405 while not casting. Since the proc lasts 15 seconds and my Spirit-based regen is 285 mp5, this would indicate that it provides 285 * 3 = 885 mana per proc.

I'm not sure if Intensity works while the Card is proccing, but to be conservative I made the guess that it doesn't (I don't actually have the Card to test it). If this is the case the proc also causes you to lose out on 285 * 0.3 * 3 = 257 mana from Intensity, bringing the value to 885 - 257 = 628 mana per proc with the amount of Spirit I have.

Even if my assumption about Intensity is wrong and you do in fact get 130% Spirit regen when the Card procs, I would be really surprised if it worked off your total mana-regen and not just your Spirit contribution. This all can be determined conclusively if someone with the card posts their values for Spirit, "while not casting" mana regen, and "while casting" mana regen both while the proc is active and without the proc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the tooltip doesn't say "Regen from Spirit." I don't think the tooltip says the word "Spirit" anywhere on it. It says "100% of your Mana Regeneration." Which, in my mind, would mean, your total (100%) Mana Regeneration, or MP5 while not casting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right, but the wording on the Blue Dragon proc says "allows 100% of your Mana regeneration to continue while casting." Pure-mp5 based regen already works 100% while casting, so I didn't think it would be affected in any way. Also, normally 30% of your Spirit regen works while casting, so I also thought you would only see a 70% improvement even in that area (since it allows 100%, and you already had 30%). That was a guess though since I don't actually have the trinket, nor do I know anyone that does.

At any rate it would help if anyone with the card posts how much Spirit they have, and the two numbers on the Mana regen tooltip, both with and without the proc active.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey guys I am a new macros. I have played vanilla wow since pre-bc what dose

" #show Lifebloom

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()

/use Lower City Prayerbook

/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

/cast [target=mouseover]Lifebloom "

the #show Lifebloom is the part i cant seem to ubnderstqand what is does. I havent use this in the macros I write/use. can you direct me to it meanig

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hey guys I am a new macros. I have played vanilla wow since pre-bc what dose

" #show Lifebloom

/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()

/use Lower City Prayerbook

/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

/cast [target=mouseover]Lifebloom "

the #show Lifebloom is the part i cant seem to ubnderstqand what is does. I havent use this in the macros I write/use. can you direct me to it meanig

That specifies which icon to use, in this case, it would show the Lifebloom icon.

This is probably the wrong place to ask this kind of question, by the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At any rate it would help if anyone with the card posts how much Spirit they have, and the two numbers on the Mana regen tooltip, both with and without the proc active.

I still have my [item]Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon[/item] card, did some testing.

Stats (no buffs, currently 3/3 Intensity and 3/3 living spirit)

87 mp5

444 spirit

(also wearing 2/5 tier 4 and insightful earthstorm which occasionally threw off a tick, but not beyond that)

Base

Character tab mana regen - outside: 384, inside: 185

Regen_fu values - outside: 154/155, inside: 74,75

Darkmoon Proc

Character tab mana regen - outside: 384, inside: 384

Regen_fu values - outside: 154/155, inside: 154/155

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still have my [item]Darkmoon Card: Blue Dragon[/item] card, did some testing.

This seems to indicate that the Blue Dragon card does indeed just allow 100% of your Spirit-based regeneration to occur while casting, meaning it grants you 70% of your spirit based regeneration for the duration of the proc (since you already had 30% due to Intensity). For druids this is ( Spirit / 4.5 + 15 ) / 2 * 15 * 0.7 mana per proc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've updated the first post with new numbers and information about patch 2.3.2 which is currently on the PTR. Right now both sets of information (2.3 and 2.3.2) are present, just in case they revert the changes or if the patch takes a long time to go live. The short version is that you can expect your 3-stacks of lifebloom to tick lower by 29.42% of your temporary +healing value, and we almost surely won't be able to cheese Carrion Swarm and Dementia anymore. There's some ongoing discussion about future trinket choice in Tree Concerns and Issues - Page 14.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So i had a thought. Healing is either enough, or not. Once you have enough gear to beat a fight, gear upgrades are unnecessary. As you upgrade your gear, some talent points could be spared for more utility making fights faster or easier.

Since my gear is more than sufficient, i went and spec'd THIS.

It's a dreamstate spec with imp FF and no HT talents. I was playing like a tree spec, mainly spamming lifeblooms rejuvs and regrowths while keeping FF up. Dreamstate and moonglow makes up for the loss of tree form's 20% mana redux and lunar guidance helps make up for the lack of empowered rejuv. Unbuffed, i lost about 30 per tick on a single lifebloom and 70 off rejuvs and gained 3% hit for the MT and allowed most of the dps to swap out hit gear as well as insect swarm (which i only kept up ~50% of the time since i'm pretty lazy).

Curious if anyone else has tried something like this and their thoughts on this spec for learning encounters come sunwell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.