Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Vontre

Sweet Informational Thread

1207 posts in this topic

Is the rule of Damage > Crit universal? I was (probably mistakenly) under the impression that as a 10/48/3 mage equipping a crit proccing item like TLC, stacking as much crit as possible would be in my best interest (for the ignites and the TLC). Now I am not so sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fair enough Vontre - I should have said that I'm primarily trying to model it for Patchwerk-style scenarios, just to get a grip on how much dps it can add in optimal conditions. Pursuing that, I totally overlooked the way it reduced interruption penalties and the real value that grants.

Your last sentence, "If there are no interruptions, then the spell will almost certainly reach the number of interations required to gain that 'extra' cast" more directly concerns what I'm modelling, but doesn't account for the fact that, once you get the extra cast off, its value diminishes until you get another extra cast. However, the longer the fight goes (and therefore the more extra casts you get), the better your average gain will be from haste. When you need to cast, say, 20 nukes (at an incidental 5% passive haste rating) for each extra cast, you're chances of ending the fight close to an optimal time is very low, where 'optimal time' means 'right after an extra cast.' The more haste you have, the better chance you have to end at an optimal time *and* the less it matters when the fight ends, because the more extra casts you get during a given encounter means your average gain rises.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a generic question -- for a new mage, what badge rewards should they be aiming for first? This can dovetail nicely into my extremely casual Alliance mage, who I might play a few times a week. Which ones give the biggest bang for the buck? Is the Icon still the way to go? Which of the new rewards are most appealing?

This is somewhat more relevant for people who enter Karazhan now, since they'll be accumulating badges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it's not exactly a dps gain only in the case of 'once every 25 casts' (illustrative number here). If the fight lasts 2 min, then you might end up with a clipped fireball at the end of the fight without haste, whereas haste gear would have had you won that one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm working on modelling Spell Haste at the moment, so this caught my attention. I've seen the spell haste ratio quoted above (1 haste ~= 1.05 dmg) a few times on several topics here lately, and want to interject an important caveat that may seem obvious, but may not in fact be obvious to everyone: incremental amounts of spell haste will normally provide no DPS increase whatsoever.

Haste will always give you extra mobility, but haste only adds DPS once you've cast enough that you get an additional nuke. After that first extra nuke, the value of haste oscillates depending on the number of extra nukes you've cast, approaching some maximum limit defined by the average damage of your given nuke.

You are confusing DAMAGE with DPS. Obviously, the damage increase is a step function, as you correctly point out, but the damage per second scales linearly with the increased haste rating. The caveat, of course, for benefiting from increased haste rating is that lag (brain, communication, computer or pushback) will always be there to interfere.

Assume for ease in my example, that you cast 5 Fireballs over 15 seconds, unhasted, each delivering exactly 2000 damage. The total damage is 10,000 and the DPS in the 15 second interval is 666.66. With 16 point increase in haste (1.01%), you will cast 5 Fireballs in 14.849 seconds. The total damage in the 14.849 second interval is 10,000 (the same), and the DPS in the 14.849 second interval is 673.43.

For that matter, because the instruments themselves don't measure fractions of seconds very reliably, you may not see a damage meter reading that shows that increased DPS unless you get that extra Fireball off in the measured interval. However, this is more a question of a sampling error; the underlying DPS increase is present, but it may take a while for it to register properly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The followup to that is that on a 14.9 second fight, you'd see a 25% damage boost from that 1% haste increase (you hit with five fireballs vs. four if you were hasteless). Since fight durations are rarely exact multiples of three seconds, you have to count by averages, and a 1% haste increase is 1% more damage on average.

It gets a little more interesting with farming, since it only takes a few seconds to kill something while farming. For the purposes of raiding, though, X% haste is an X% dps boost.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are more questions I see concerning talent specs, such as deep arcane/frost if a 2nd mage puts WC up for you. I've always gone by the rule deep frost is best but you may want to include the math in the OP.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ack, I should have known better than to be so lazy with my terminology - indeed, the main thing I wanted to highlight was the stepwise increase in damage (not DPS). In fact, in retrospect my main point should have been to say that DPS isn't the best metric for thinking about haste when choosing gear. I humbly submit to all the related corrections, including the prospect of an finishing an otherwise-clipped fireball, and the potentially outsized returns from wearing small amounts of haste.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's a generic question -- for a new mage, what badge rewards should they be aiming for first? This can dovetail nicely into my extremely casual Alliance mage, who I might play a few times a week. Which ones give the biggest bang for the buck? Is the Icon still the way to go? Which of the new rewards are most appealing?

This is somewhat more relevant for people who enter Karazhan now, since they'll be accumulating badges.

Best practices / twinking a mage:

* Icon, off-hand, maybe cloak from badges

* PvP honor gear

* Tailoring gear

can provide 12ish pieces of gear that could last into t6 content.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Scryer's Bloodgem can be a very quick and easy fix to low hit rating, it doesn't really complement the Icon but that plus the new badge trinket could be a nice combo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here's a generic question -- for a new mage, what badge rewards should they be aiming for first? This can dovetail nicely into my extremely casual Alliance mage, who I might play a few times a week. Which ones give the biggest bang for the buck? Is the Icon still the way to go? Which of the new rewards are most appealing?

This is somewhat more relevant for people who enter Karazhan now, since they'll be accumulating badges.

I'd go for bracers, offhand, wand and the icon of course (which is exactly what I got as soon as 2.3 went live). And start with whatever item is the best upgrade for you.

And if your mage is a tailor then Spellstrike and Spellfire sets are so good you'll have a hard time picking up any item that would break a set bonus on them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious why there hasnt been much discussion about 2.3.x (icy veins) as currently seen on ptr.

If i somehow overlooked it please point me in the right direction ;)

Ill start off with some questions im having and would apreciate some input.

It look like 10/48/3 specs could be replaced by 10/40/11 or 0/40/21.

40/21 giving you 40 seconds of haste instead of 20 at the cost of reduced agro from arcane explosion and clearcasting.

0/40/21:

  • Do you think its worth getting coldsnap at the cost of 2/2 subtlety or would you rather drop 2 points in fire?

  • To reach combustion and 5/5 empowered fireball youll have to drop 3 points out of either scorch moe pyromaniac or playing with fire. (kinda ignoring blastwave pyroblast and others here). What are your ideas on where to drop these points? Im thinking it makes most sense to take them from pyromaniac.

  • Has anyone modded these changes into vontre's dps spreadsheet?
    Wws testing on Dr. Boom gives some indication but with 5 mages nuking him he simply dies too fast for a good comparison.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Icy Veins is being discussed in the 2.3 Mage thread. It's complicated enough and subject to possible change, so its discussion should go in another thread. Lhivera has a detailed breakdown of it though here - http://elitistjerks.com/556953-post1399.html - with some more work later on in the thread.

I would like to see some information on mana longevity. Mainly, how important is a shadow priest now that we have a 100% uptime with our Retribution Paladin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You thought wrong. For most specs spell damage and spell haste in fact give almost identical benefit, with haste marginally ahead (1haste~=1.05dmg). This is perfectly reasonable given that it does not improve DPM. Any simulator will demonstrate equivallence including Vontre's Sheet and Lhivera's TC.

Roywyn: Note it has been anounced that CSD req will change from "2 blue" to "at least two blue" some time in the future. Though at T6 level this means nothing (you still have to sub a pair of purples for a pair of +12s) but at lower ilevel it makes for better benefits as many useful items have blue socket req with decent bonuses (eg. Badge gloves, belt of blasting).

(Not aimed at Ignus) Given that we're all capable of at least plugging some stats into a web-page can we all stop re-iterating the age-old "can someone please post how much +dmg is x haste/hit/crit/croissant?" please. It's getting tiring.

So I've been seeing conflicting information regarding this topic. While I keep hearing as a general rule that hit >> spell haste≥ +dmg > crit... the numbers I have don't really show a broadly applicable rule like the old hit to cap then stack +dmg above all. Specifically, it seems that the value of haste relative to +dmg drops with even just modest amounts of +haste. In some specs such as 46/13/0 +2 it seems that spell haste is valued even lower than crit.

Is haste better than crit for 46/13/0 +2? I plugged in numbers in TCoM for Arcane vs Fire and I've been getting conversion ratios that go against the Hit>Haste>dmg>crit mantra everyone has been saying. Is the script wrong or am I missing somethign key? I'm not exactly sure where this sudden consensus came from but I would really like to resolve this conflicting info.

In the script i get hit>dmg>crit>haste for Deep Arcane and hit>dmg>haste>crit for Deep fire. Now, when I drop my spellhaste gear, the relative values do make haste better than +dmg for fire but it is so low that just one piece of spellhaste gear will shift favor back to +dmg. For arcane tho...it remains abysmally low. Is this just a problem with the theorycraft script? Maybe it rates spellhaste so low becuase of AB rotations/spamming and the resultant clipping against the GCD? I'm currently moving into MH/BT so I am trying to upgrade my spellhit in anticipation of the move to Fire but for now my T5 bonuses and current gear set mean that arcane is my highest DPS spec till I can get enough upgrades to justify the move to fire. So I would really like to know if I'm shooting myself in the foot by wearing spellhaste over spell crit while I'm still Arcane. Also, I really would just like to know the conceptual reasons as to why spellhaste is being rated so poorly for arcane.

Furthermore, since once you have a little bit of spellhaste, dmg and spellhaste seem to equal out, shouldnt you go for +dmg over spellhaste since it improves efficiency?

The way people speak of spellhaste makes it seem as if you can treat spell haste as being better than +dmg as a general rule but if the relative value of spellhaste drops as precipitously as the TCoM seems to indicate then really we can't make any general statements about spellhaste since just one piece of gear can rapidly shift the relative values of

spell haste vs +dmg. Insofar as this is true, it seems to indicate that stacking a stat like spellhaste is more involved than one such as +dmg since it shifts far more rapidly than any other stat I've seen and you have to take into account the rest of your armor to an extent no other stat has required in order to accurately assess its value.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Edited for double post. Sorry... first time posting/registering/laptop dropped connection... thought the first one didnt go through

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Vontre:

You are my hero yet again

/bow

Thank you for all that you do for the mage community.

We greatly appreciate you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In the script i get hit>dmg>crit>haste for Deep Arcane and hit>dmg>haste>crit for Deep fire. Now, when I drop my spellhaste gear, the relative values do make haste better than +dmg for fire but it is so low that just one piece of spellhaste gear will shift favor back to +dmg. For arcane tho...it remains abysmally low. Is this just a problem with the theorycraft script? Maybe it rates spellhaste so low becuase of AB rotations/spamming and the resultant clipping against the GCD? I'm currently moving into MH/BT so I am trying to upgrade my spellhit in anticipation of the move to Fire but for now my T5 bonuses and current gear set mean that arcane is my highest DPS spec till I can get enough upgrades to justify the move to fire. So I would really like to know if I'm shooting myself in the foot by wearing spellhaste over spell crit while I'm still Arcane. Also, I really would just like to know the conceptual reasons as to why spellhaste is being rated so poorly for arcane.

I do believe it is a problem of rotation clipping. In short, without the AB debuff wearing off faster to compensate for the rotation overall going faster, as well as Scorch being hard capped at 1.5s due to the global cooldown, haste's value goes in the toilet for most AB/Scorch rotations.

No single mantra will ever be wholly perfect. The mantras are simple noob-repellant in the face of repeated questions. You should always assess the relative values of stats for your current gear setup and use that as a guideline for valuing upgrades.

In some ways, these mantras are meaningless, as without magnitudes (i.e. knowing how much more valuable +hit is than +damage) you would never know when the tradeoff is worthwhile.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple quick requests regarding the (very admirable) initial post:

1. If this is supposed to be for mages not already well-versed in theorycraft, might it be a good idea to post links to specific specs? In the section on deep fire, for example, I would say outright that you are talking about 10/48/3, and then post a hyperlink to wowhead's talent calculator.

2. I've read in other threads on this forum about the relative advantage of "FBall*8, Scorth" versus "FBall, FBall, FBlast...Scorch." I remember reading that with average gear, i.e. Spellfire/Spellstrike + random Kara epics, weaving fireblasts into the rotation will actually increase your DPS (by up to 70) at the cost of DPM. (And I have confirmed this with my mage alt, practicing on Dr. Boom). It could be useful for mages to know this, given that there are numerous ways to deal with any mana troubles the alternate rotation creates. You could also note how the effectiveness of such a strategy diminishes as gear improves.

3. A link to your spreadsheet, and a brief explanation of it, would be very helpful to mages just getting started with serious raiding.

Thanks again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was also wondering about why haste is rated so highly for deep fire. I figured you'd want the t6 4 piece bonus, and not picking up haste gear lets you get stuff like the najentuns ring over the trash drop ring which gives you hit, and then you can stack more straight +dmg gems in your gear.

Are you implying, vontre, that we should go for 4p t6, get bracers/rings/offhand ect with haste and socket +hit as/(if) necessary? The thing I was also considering about going for more dmg over haste is with the IV talent, if it stays 11 points, deep fire mages will lose clear casting. Since haste gear makes you cast more, you’ll lose more mana faster obviously. Also, since most haste gear lacks crit and most dmg gear has crit, you’ll lose those 30% mana returns.

Just a rough estimate, but if you chain cast fireball for 10 minutes that 3% crit would be:

20 fireballs/min *10 min = 200 fireballs => +3% crit rate = 6crits ~ 720ish mana. I know that’s not much, but it’s something to think about if you’re thinking about how much haste effects your dpm, might as well factor the difference in crit% for mana return too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, if dpm is important than haste won't be that effective. Personally, I couldn't run out of mana if I tried. Fire is very efficient. Anyway, haste only rates over spell damage after a certain level of spell damage, somewhere around 1100 maybe. They are pretty close stats. I value haste more because faster spells reduce pushback and interruption damage loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, i see where you're coming from. To me it just seams pretty darn close in either case, and i've never raided deep fire without clearcasting. It just seams like there's a chance mana could be an issue (spriest dieing ect or not being placed in the sp group for some reason) that would make me feel more comfortable with more +dmg over haste. but then again, fights with movement haste would obviously be a better call. hmm. . . anyone else have thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, if you are at the T6 level of gear, you wouldn't be needing for more spell hit. The weighted numbers I have using Lhivera's script are roughly damage = 1, spell hit = 1.5, spell crit = .7, spell haste = 1.2. Grabbing the best items per slot means max spell hit. I actually use a lower point number for spell hit in comparing gear as it's too easy to max it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I value haste more because faster spells reduce pushback and interruption damage loss.

If anything, if there is periodic pushback, faster spells see a larger DPS loss, as the pushback DR resets every time you complete a spellcast.

Now, for the purposes of avoiding pushback, yes, faster spells have an advantage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One often neglected advantage of raiding with Arcane mages is the freeing of precious debuff slots. I suspect this may provide a notable improvement to overall raid dps. The question then remains: Is the potential raid dps from debuff slots which would otherwise be used by fire/frost specs greater than the dps difference provided by fire/frost mages over arcane mages?

Fire debuffs/dots = Fireball, Ignite, Scorch (shared), CoE (from a Lock). Frost debuffs/dots = Frostbolt, Winter's Chill (shared), CoE (from a Lock). Arcane debuffs/dots = none. I'm including CoE in the count for Fire and Frost, because the locks are only asked to apply it when there are Fire/Frost mages in the raid. I'm not including CoS for Arcane, as the locks will keep it up for themselves and the spriests, regardless of having any mages in raid. This also implies that the CoE lock could apply CoA instead to improve overall raid dps.

Our 25-man raids typically carry 3 mages, and we generally settle on synchronized specs. Thus, when we're fire, this means we use 8 debuff slots. Frost results in 5. Arcane requires none.

When we were all Fire, the spriest in our group would frequently complain about having his SW:P knocked off within 3 seconds. This was obviously bad for him, for us, and the raid as a whole. Since we all spec'd Arcane, the spriests had no complaints, the locks were happier, and we were still doing enough dps to warrant our raid spots.

I realize the answer to my question in the first paragraph is highly dependent on the specific composition of a given raid and even gear to a certain extent. In our case, all our raiding mages have 2-pc T5, 1 has 4-pc T5, and we are just starting to open T6 sets. We carry enough debuffing classes that sometimes debuffs still get knocked off even with all our mages as Arcane. Is there a handy list of raid debuffs which I could plug into our typical compositions to compare them vs. the benefits of Fire/Frost mage debuffs? Exactly how much of a dps difference does deep Fire provide over deep Arcane in 2.3? Should we care about overall raid dps or personal "epeenery"? ;) Thanks for any help in finding a solid answer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A point, Anthara: the Frostbolt debuff does not apply to mobs/bosses that are immune to snares. Hence, any number of Frost mages should only consume 2 debuff slots--Winter's Chill and CoE.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, here's my questions regarding spell haste. I posted on the WoW mage forums, but it appears there are little to no mages that actually know what they're talking about over there. Below is a copy/paste of my original post. The thread can be found here: WoW Forums -> Haste and Firebally x2, Fireblast Rotation...

--------------------------------

I have some question about haste and fire rotations for raiding...

It's widely known with the experienced end-game pve fire mages that Fireball x2, Fireblast rotation is the highest dps/dmg rotation you can do in a raid. Obviously, it's a mana sink and sp's are required, but it's the best rotation. This is what a 10/48/3 spec is used for as well as the all-new 2/48/11 spec. 1/3 in Imprvoed fireblast allows your Fireblast cooldown to be up at the exact same time as you finish casting your second fireball.

With /stopcasting macros no longer needed to raid, your casting times are all but perfectly timed in raids. This allows for minimal to no lost time due to lag or other reasons.

Here's the problem I'm facing.

It's widely accepted that Spell Hit > Spell Haste > Spell Dmg > Spell Crit. With the many items available with haste on them, and the great benefits that haste can have for raiding and overall dmg, it's hard to pass up on this stat.

However, after you stack the first 1% spell haste, a Fireball x2, Fireblast rotation becomes less effective, and even moreso less effective with each % of spell haste you add.

At 150 spell haste rating, your fireball will be ~2.7s casting. However, 2.7 * 2 = 5.4s. This will be .6s shy of your needed timing in order to instantly cast a fireblast. Therefore, other than this higher dps you received on those fireballs with the quicker casts, you are still stuck to a normal spell rotation, thus not increasing your dps in that 7.5s second window, and thus not increasing your overall damage.

The only way I can see a fireblast fitting in with a spell haste gear setup is if you had 268 spell haste, had 3/3 improved fireblast, and did a fireball x2, fireblast rotation.

268 spell haste will make your fireballs 2.5 seconds. 3/3 imp fireblast will give a 6.5 sec fireblast cooldown.

1 fireblast (1.5s gcd) knocks the time to 5s.

2x 2.5s fireballs = 5 seconds, perfectly timed for a fireblast.

However, 268 spell haste is tough to get without sacrificing other stats, and 3/3 imp fireblast means giving up Arcane Subtlety, thus making you vulnerable to aggro when ae'ing hyjal trash (although you could switch to flamestrike/blizzard, though lower your dps/dmg).

So...

Does spell haste mean you give up a fireblast rotation with fireballs?

Obviously, if it does, then you're back to fireball spam.

Will a fireball spam with spell haste yield more dps and/or dmg than a fireball x2, fireblast rotation without spell haste?

If so, is there a threshold of spell haste needed to reach when fireball spam dmg and/or dps surpasses fireball x2, fireblast rotation?

---------------------------------------

A follow up post of mine:

For every rating of spell haste you get, it appears that a) the rotation becomes less and less effective and b) you will need to change your spec in order to maintain the same rotation, but not before you reach 268 spell haste.

Btw - I did some numbers last night.

Bracers of Nimble Thought - 28 haste

Footpads of Madness - 25 haste

Mantle of Nimble Thought - 38 haste

Shadowcaster's Dr@pe - 25 haste

Waistwrap of Infinity - 32 haste

Ring of Ancient Knowledge - 31 haste

Ring of Ancient Knowledge (x2) - 31 haste

Pantaloons of Arcane Annihilation - 45 haste

That's a total of 255 spell haste, 13 shy of the 268 needed for the 0/50/11 build I was talking about in my op. However, in that 255 haste, you're also giving up a lot of other stats, and possibly picking up lower-end items over better pieces for the haste (I haven't crunched the numbers on the individual items yet). Getting the haste offhand will top you off, but again, I'm not sure if all of these items are better than their non-haste counterparts.

------------------------------------------

So...any thoughts? I'm certain I'll be stacking haste, but am uncertain as to the best rotation to fully utilize the effectiveness of the stat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.