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Zurgat

Retro weapons - Nightfall

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Not every guild has tanks with full fury gearsets, or extra enhancement shamans to give to their off-tanks in single tank fights. Your WWS is an exception, not the rule.

It's similar to having bears in kitty form. With a full gear swap and the knowledge of proper dps rotations, it's possible to get a spot on the meters. With half-tanking gear, half-dps gear, a feral isn't going to do much better than a prot warrior in a similar getup. At the very least, the druid can still provide FF, LotP, and a rebirth, as well as the option to shift out to Tranquility in a pinch. A prot warrior at most can provide BS to the melee if they're lacking a fury/arms warrior. By using weapons like Nightfall, they can still provide some measure of raid utility.

That being said, there's probably some inflection point for the number of casters in the raid required before using a Nightfall is a worthy investment. Also, how does having additional tanks swinging them increase the debuff uptime.

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It's similar to having bears in kitty form. With a full gear swap and the knowledge of proper dps rotations, it's possible to get a spot on the meters. With half-tanking gear, half-dps gear, a feral isn't going to do much better than a prot warrior in a similar getup.

That is just plain silly. This thread is bad enough without you coming in here and saying crazy things. It is perfectly possible for a feral druid to output over 1k dps in gear that would be perfectly fine for tanking doomguards at Azgalor, off tanking Supremus, or whatever.

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I recently got the [item]Manual Crowd Pummeler[/item] on a warrior alt, and my first thought was "Could you activate the haste bonus and then immediately switch to another weapon?" 500 haste rating for 30 seconds would be incredible even at 70. Additionally, it drops off a boss that is very near to the rear entrance of Gnomer, so farming it would be extremely easy.

Just tested, the buff is canceled when you switch weapons.

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I can't remember any of the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the contribution from nightfal narrowly failed to make up for my lost DW DPS even in Naxx, even with 10+ casters in the group. Now granted, DW fury was really really good in naxx, but I just can't see it being nearly as good as it was then

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Nightfall is good for RoS p1 when resto shamans can swing it with windfury. They cant really do much dps then anyway during the time and it is a boost to all the rest of the nuking classes

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Educated Guess:

1. 38 / 41 dps isn't like ... wow... [item]Rising Tide[/item]

2. The stacking debuff could be a self-buff like the one from [item]The Night Blade[/item] and only benefitting yourself.

The [item]Annihilator[/item] proc is a debuff, not a self-buff, that does not overwrite sunder. I don't have any experience with [item]Rivenspike[/item], but from the similar wording I'm guessing it's also a debuff. Whether it stacks with [item]Annihilator[/item] or not, I have no idea.

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We have a Prot Pally that busts out [item]Nightfall[/item] on bosses like Gorefiend when he doesn't have to OT. So he auto attacks and helps me on cleanse duty. Seems like a good enough buff to make up for the marginal loss in already low Prot Pally dps.

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The [item]Annihilator[/item] proc is a debuff, not a self-buff, that does not overwrite sunder. I don't have any experience with [item]Rivenspike[/item], but from the similar wording I'm guessing it's also a debuff. Whether it stacks with [item]Annihilator[/item] or not, I have no idea.

Sad self-admission: I used to use Rivenspike on my resto shaman way back when on C'thun, because it did stack with Sunder. This was back when I was a resto shaman.

I cannot imagine it being useful today, even if they somehow missed it stacking with sunder. Horrible proc rate, horrible uptime, and not much of cases where you can use it and not cause more problems than good (parries, non healing, no regen MH, I could go on).

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Here's a post about this topic (Nightfall) I wrote on my guild's forums. I use one (Illidan P2 when I'm not tanking) and used to use one as an OT when I was in tank gear for something in the fight.

Tested Nightfall today, was curious.

4.2 PPM, put my character on auto attack on a servant, then did other stuff. This is the results when I came back, as well as a dead character.

nightfallip4.jpg

I used a Gorefiend WWS that totaled about 9000 caster DPS for the calculations.

The Spell Vulnerability debuff lasts 5 seconds. 15% of 9000 is 1350 DPS, so it's 1350 more damage each second for 5 seconds, or 6750 damage per proc. At 4.2 procs/minute, that's 28350 damage/minute, or 472 dps.

In full dps gear + Nightfall, spamming hamstring/overpower/whirlwind, I was doing 350 dps. The proc adds 470ish so I was adding 820 dps effectively.

In full dps gear + normal weapons, I'll do far more than that, 1000+ without a totem.

So on a fight like Gorefiend or Archimonde where you aren't sitting the tanks to just streamline things, full dps gear is still better. But anything else where there's extra tanks once the mobs die or whatnot (Illidan, etc), Nightfall will be a nice boost, and I decided to quantify it.

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I can't remember any of the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the contribution from nightfal narrowly failed to make up for my lost DW DPS even in Naxx, even with 10+ casters in the group. Now granted, DW fury was really really good in naxx, but I just can't see it being nearly as good as it was then

Yes, but is it better when you're in full FR gear?

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A purebread dps class/spec will always be more useful doing that, rather than using nightfall. Nightfall is just a good weapon to use when you're not a dps spec, and not in dps gear, and not in a dps group. You'll add more raidwide dps using it than any other alternative option. (Unless you're raiding with close to 0 casters, then auto attacking with no weapons equipped would probably be better).

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A purebread dps class/spec will always be more useful doing that, rather than using nightfall. Nightfall is just a good weapon to use when you're not a dps spec, and not in dps gear, and not in a dps group. You'll add more raidwide dps using it than any other alternative option. (Unless you're raiding with close to 0 casters, then auto attacking with no weapons equipped would probably be better).

Not in dps gear is enough. I have 5% hit, 12% crit, -4% dodge, 900 AP in FR gear, somehow I don't think my white damage would account for much.

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Tested Nightfall today, was curious.

4.2 PPM, put my character on auto attack on a servant, then did other stuff. This is the results when I came back, as well as a dead character.

I used a Gorefiend WWS that totaled about 9000 caster DPS for the calculations.

The Spell Vulnerability debuff lasts 5 seconds. 15% of 9000 is 1350 DPS, so it's 1350 more damage each second for 5 seconds, or 6750 damage per proc. At 4.2 procs/minute, that's 28350 damage/minute, or 472 dps.

In full dps gear + Nightfall, spamming hamstring/overpower/whirlwind, I was doing 350 dps. The proc adds 470ish so I was adding 820 dps effectively.

If procwatch still works like it used to do, it counts the "X is afflicted by Spell Vulnerability." as well as "Spell Vulnerability fades from X." messages, so your actual proc rate is half the amount listed.

Also, back then, people found out that Nightfall could only proc from regular swings. Additional instant attacks (Hamstring/Whirlwind spam) would not proc Nightfall.

Thought it should be mentioned while we're at it, and I haven't heard that it was changed.

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Thanks a lot for the information Xav. I've been wondering about this for ages but never had a chance to test it.

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1. My argument of Rivenspike not being *that* bad is that you could DW it with a 90+ dps weapon, whereas with nightfall you're stuck holding a 2H with 65 dps. This point goes away if you use both axes i listed, but then you're massively debuffing the target. Also I forgot to mention [item]Bashguuder[/item], exact same effect as rivenspike (won't stack), but is OH if that makes your dps feel better.

2. I'm relatively certain it's a debuff, but someone would have to test.

FWIW, I used [item]Bashguuder[/item] at 60. On my rogue, with S'n'D up, it was permanently up with a full stack on bosses. It was downright silly, I think I still have it in the bank somewhere. :-)

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I spent a lot of time farming SM arm for a ravager a couple of months back. Idea being to put rockbiter on it, pull an entire instance, twirl in place, then spend a few minutes looting. More specifically, to farm SFK for the twink drops there.

Not exactly efficient, farming armory so I can go farm a lower level instance. I came to my senses recently, and just farmed ores and honour, resulting in a S1 axe and a drakefist hammer. I'd still like a ravager, just to be able to aoe mobs, but some things are just not meant to be.

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We have a Prot Pally that busts out [item]Nightfall[/item] on bosses like Gorefiend when he doesn't have to OT. So he auto attacks and helps me on cleanse duty. Seems like a good enough buff to make up for the marginal loss in already low Prot Pally dps.

Our prot pally MTs Gorefiend. Teron is a demon, so our protadin makes sick threat.

Back on the Nightfall topic, our warrior MT claims he can get 25% or better uptime with it, by spamming hamstring. I'm not complaining, I seen a couple 6.3k frostbolts on Shade of Akama, and a destro lock in our raid popped off a 10.5k shadowbolt.

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A much better solution would be an investigation into *why* he's threat capped. Changes in our talent tree made threat almost a non-issue recently.

Unfortunately all tanks aren't created equally. There are times when the tank doesn't have windfury, hunters only misdirect on the pull, etc.

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If procwatch still works like it used to do, it counts the "X is afflicted by Spell Vulnerability." as well as "Spell Vulnerability fades from X." messages, so your actual proc rate is half the amount listed.

Also, back then, people found out that Nightfall could only proc from regular swings. Additional instant attacks (Hamstring/Whirlwind spam) would not proc Nightfall.

Thought it should be mentioned while we're at it, and I haven't heard that it was changed.

It doesn't count Spell Vulnerability twice, I observed this a lot. It was double counting other procs though, as I ran a similar test with Crusader. Nightfall does proc off of instant attacks, and the PPM goes up when that happens because you're raising the chance of getting the max PPM possible. In reality your PPM wont be drastically higher than what the picture shows because you're likely refreshing Thunderclap, *not* getting much rage to even spamstring, and possibly refreshing Demo shout / Command / Battle as well, as a warrior anyway.

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Our prot pally MTs Gorefiend. Teron is a demon, so our protadin makes sick threat.

Back on the Nightfall topic, our warrior MT claims he can get 25% or better uptime with it, by spamming hamstring. I'm not complaining, I seen a couple 6.3k frostbolts on Shade of Akama, and a destro lock in our raid popped off a 10.5k shadowbolt.

the shade of akama has a stacking increase damage debuff that akama puts on shade anyways.

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I've had a nightfall since MC days, the highlight of it's usefulness was loatheb in naxx.

If you're considering it's use on TBC content you need to remember the duration of the debuff is low, the debuff priority is really really low.

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1556 Prot warrior DPS: Wow Web Stats

The only situation I think can be considered is when a prot warrior needs to DPS with tanking gear on (Illidan, RoS P3 as backup tank, etc).

That's a bit of a gimmick though. Haste pots, recklessness, and potentially strength food and an assault flask, and yet another prot warrior running debuffs. Still you beat out the Mortal Strike warrior by a bit.

What I find impressive is the other protection warrior (why bring 3?) running 970 DPS while doing debuffs. That's pretty good.

Best I can do is about 700-800 depending on group make up with my pretty pathetic DPS gear. Few blues and almost no enchants and my gear is about 1/3 T4ish 1/3 T5ish 1/3 other :(

What gear and enchant level are you running with this? All T5 or better? T6?

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It's basically flawless T6-level fury gear. The last time I looked at Natural's armory I don't think there was a single slot that could be upgraded DPS-wise, exception of having Warglaives. Devastate really is quite amazing when you're running around with a monstrous mainhand and over 3000 AP.

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Is this post about retro weapons, or about Nightfall in particular? Asking because of all weapons I heard being useful even though they are long outgrown, The Ravager seems to be the most powerful. I have heard claims of major shifts on damage meters by using this weapon. Is this anywhere near plausible, you'd think?

It's not. The proc rate is fairly low, and you have to time all your other abilites (Stormstrike, Shocks, Totems, Trinkets, etc) carefully to ensure you don't interrupt the whirlwind effect when it does proc. I use it for a bit of fun on the odd AoE pull with Rockbiter, and get three AoE "ticks" of 700-800 (with the melee crit rate) which doesn't seem to be affected by the AoE cap per proc, but don't quote me on that.

For comparison, Fire Nova totem is about the same damage, but with a lower crit rate (and a 150% crit modifier instead of 200%). You won't AoE down SM with a Ravager, even with a healer. In general, Shaman would get more overall damage single target dpsing things down while dropping totems. Spinning around and yelling "Blades of Light" is fun though!

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Well, just got mine crafted up. I'm just going to toe the line with Xav's advice and whip it out in fights where I'm stuck in tank gear but eventually get freed up.

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