Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Zurgat

Retro weapons - Nightfall

101 posts in this topic

Our MT uses a nightfall in certain situation, and all maths aside, I've always found it to be a pretty noticable gain (but perhaps it only feels that way because the debuff pushes my SB crits just in the 10k-range :D). He's able to keep it up a reasonable amount of the time aswell, and since we raid with around 8-10 casters counting shadowpriests normally, I think it's worth the effort.

So it's purely anecdotically but give it a shot if you're considering it I'd say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the -600 AC weapons from LBRS on my Shaman when I was testing out enhancement a while back, But this was in the days of the 5 affliction lock SSC, so its hard to tell. I'm pretty sure the debuff time is reduced significantly on level 73 mobs,

The rivenspike was near worthless probably 1 PPM and never stacks up. The [item]Bashguuder[/item] has a far bigger uptime. I haven't tried The Annihilator yet, because it's main hand only. But the dps prot warrior can put out these days, I hardly think its worth it.

The same can be said for Nightfall, I remember it being questionably worth it in the days of 40 man raids, and all your really going to do with it is transfur a tiny bit of damage from a prot warrior, to the wartlocks who are probably having enough trouble with threat as it is.

It's possible it could be used for a resto shaman/paly on a fight that requires little healing, but its probably just going to be a wasted bag spot 99% of the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've considered getting one to bust out (Holy Paladin) on fights where I keep judgments up. For progression content it's hard to find a way to make it worth it. For farm content though? Who needs another 600 +heal on 4/5 5/9 of the fights where I'm half asleep and starting to drink heavily anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dropping my 2c in the bucket.

I always carry this with me now, as I am in the MH/BT runs 100% every night, primarily as a tank. I am only needed for healing for Naj'entus and Archi, and I tank or offtank most of the rest of the encounters. With [item]Counterweight[/item] on it and seal of the crusader up, I have it swinging at 2.47 speed, which boosts up-time quite a bit. Also, for offtanking where I am not taking a hateful/hurtful strike, I am swinging this to assist in making sure I keep up vengeance. In addition, our ret pally has been speccing to holy recently, so it is a 100% judgement uptime for light or wisdom, as needed.

I swing [item]Nightfall[/item]:

- Rage Winterchill

- Kaz'rogal (high SR, the rest +haste gear)

- Supremus during kite phase, generally 2-3 procs during the phase, and I can keep 5-stack Vengeance up on him due to the solid proc rate of Seal of Vengeance from the slow swing speed

- Teron Gorefiend (+200 haste set, entire fight, I am dedicated decurser, one does not interfere with the other)

- RoS Phase 1 after I take the first full fixate pass, and Phase 2 (I tank phase 3)

- Blooboil to get 5-stack Vengeance on him fast, and then during every Fel Enrage

- Illidian Phase 1, 3 and 5. (I am one of the Flame tanks)

- plus any trash pulls in which I don't pick up something, or my target is down.

We generally run around 9,200 caster DPS on average, so it averages around +900 to the raid DPS rate while I am swinging it. Since I am in prot gear most of the time anyway (1 of 3 tanks), the raid is not sacrificing a DPS slot to get the debuff up, and I am not completely useless when I am not tanking or healing. On Illidian, I have counted as high as 30 procs over the course of the whole fight, and the additional 60,000 to 70,000 damage or so is quite a bit better than I would be contributing otherwise, considering I am in FR gear the whole fight.

Our last 3 WWS parses were not capturing most of the procs, so we are working to capture it better.

The math I have seen is a 12% proc rate based on a 2 PPM rate. That, by itself, yields a 16.6% up-time on the debuff, (2 x 5 seconds , 10 seconds / 60 seconds) or a average 2.5% increase in caster damage per minute. Seal of Crusader brings the average PPM to 2.9, which increases the up-time to 24.2%, or +3.6% caster damage per minute. I actually get an increase in personal DPS as well, although still completely minor.

I completely agree, a full-time DPS in level 70 raid gear is by far better than making one of them swing Nightfall. So while I might be an odd case out, if you aren't sacrifcing a DPS slot to be swinging it, why wouldn't you do it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder if when we're all getting ready for the 5th Expansion, "WoW: Anger of the Murloc Emperor: The Fiery Holy War", we'll still be talking about whether Nightfall is worth getting or not.

In summation though, I think the consensus is that its certainly would be a nice thing to have for any Prot Warrior/Prot & Holy Pally/Resto Shaman. If these classes want to carry around a golf bag worth of weapons (hopefully with a clockwork caddy for the engineers) for specific situations, you will be able to find times and situations where it is useful. Any fight where you're stuck in totally gimped resist gear for portions of it (Illidan, Hydross, some others) would lend itself to its use. If you're a smart player and think critically about what you'll be doing during an encounter, you'll find some time to put it to good use.

That being said, its benefit seems to be fairly marginal even in a best case scenario.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We generally run around 9,200 caster DPS on average, so it averages around +900 to the raid DPS rate while I am swinging it. Since I am in prot gear most of the time anyway (1 of 3 tanks), the raid is not sacrificing a DPS slot to get the debuff up, and I am not completely useless when I am not tanking or healing. On Illidian, I have counted as high as 30 procs over the course of the whole fight, and the additional 60,000 to 70,000 damage or so is quite a bit better than I would be contributing otherwise, considering I am in FR gear the whole fight.

Our last 3 WWS parses were not capturing most of the procs, so we are working to capture it better.

The math I have seen is a 12% proc rate based on a 2 PPM rate. That, by itself, yields a 16.6% up-time on the debuff, (2 x 5 seconds , 10 seconds / 60 seconds) or a average 2.5% increase in caster damage per minute. Seal of Crusader brings the average PPM to 2.9, which increases the up-time to 24.2%, or +3.6% caster damage per minute. I actually get an increase in personal DPS as well, although still completely minor.

+900 DPS? Unless I fail at math, with a 16.6% uptime and 9,200 caster dps, you'll see ~230 raid dps increase which is far, far from 900. Even with a 24% uptime, which is rare enough, thats just a ~330 dps. Its a situational weapon at best, especially if you are a paladin stuck in tank gear on a fight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+900 DPS? Unless I fail at math, with a 16.6% uptime and 9,200 caster dps, you'll see ~230 raid dps increase which is far, far from 900. Even with a 24% uptime, which is rare enough, thats just a ~330 dps. Its a situational weapon at best, especially if you are a paladin stuck in tank gear on a fight.

No - you're right, the above poster was way off at 900 DPS.

If you're doing 9200 caster RDPS per minute, and you managed to get 25% perfect uptime, you're going to do

(9200*45secs + 9200*1.15dmg*15secs) versus (9200*60secs), or 552,000 versus 572,700 (net gain 20,700 per minute, or about 345 dps).

So the difference comes down to how much DPS it would cost you personally to use Nightfall, and if you could pull off 345 extra DPS in your gear. Xav answered this pretty conclusively on page 2 of the thread: *maybe* if you absolutely have to be in some gear that is absolutely terrible for damage output. Certainly not good enough for anyone to run out and craft, we're talking about a pretty small number of fights that it would be useful in.

What would be useful to the thread (after a page of anecdotal "trust me I have one its awesome") would be a comparison of what kind of DPS someone in terrible damage gear (Illidan FR gear, Tanking gear) could put out, and how much personal DPS you lose out of switching to a gimp weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about Ironfoe for DW fury dps? Never used it myself, but the wowhead comments say it clones the last attack twice when it procs rather than just giving 2 autoattacks and can lead to nice results when a BT crit is cloned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How about Ironfoe for DW fury dps? Never used it myself, but the wowhead comments say it clones the last attack twice when it procs rather than just giving 2 autoattacks and can lead to nice results when a BT crit is cloned.

Even if true, there's no way a mainhand of that speed and DPS would ever be a DPS increase, and I'm highly suspicious that it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dropping my 2c in the bucket.

I always carry this with me now, as I am in the MH/BT runs 100% every night, primarily as a tank. I am only needed for healing for Naj'entus and Archi, and I tank or offtank most of the rest of the encounters. With [item]Counterweight[/item] on it and seal of the crusader up, I have it swinging at 2.47 speed, which boosts up-time quite a bit.

Just out of curiosity, but i recall a mention in the rogue dps thread, that haste does not actually affect procs.

Nightfall would be one of those, but it'd need some research.

Also, Death frost : Enchant Weapon - Deathfrost - Spells - WOWDB

I wonder if this will work on bosses and if it does whether it'll stack (unlikely) with thunderclap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What would be useful to the thread (after a page of anecdotal "trust me I have one its awesome") would be a comparison of what kind of DPS someone in terrible damage gear (Illidan FR gear, Tanking gear) could put out, and how much personal DPS you lose out of switching to a gimp weapon.

I ran a few tests on the Blasted Lands mobs (level 55) using my fire resistance kit in order to try and figure out if it would be worth me using this on Illidan (as a P2 FR tank the rest of the fight I am dead weight).

Dual wielding with 956 AP, 52 hit rating and 13% crit, with a cycle of WW, Devax5, my dps on a sundered mob was ~600. Using Nightfall (with a Counterweight, though I am not sure this affects it) with 858 AP, 12.23% crit and with a cycle of WW, Hamstringx5 my dps was ~230.

Thats a personal dps loss of ~370, while the raid dps benefit of Nightfall is suggested as ~345 by Crawk.

Clearly this test has a number of problems. I had to maintain a sunder stack while using Nightfall, and rage generation is going to differ substantially between this and Illidan. If anyone has any suggestions for better tests I might be able to try them.

EDIT: Might be worth noting my DPS on Illidan in FR kit is around 250. I would anticipate Nightfall beating this by quite a lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I distinctly remember there being a lvl 70 version of this availible through questing in smv, I even think it was an axe. Wowhead turned out squat though on a very preliminiary search.

Anyone?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I distinctly remember there being a lvl 70 version of this availible through questing in smv, I even think it was an axe. Wowhead turned out squat though on a very preliminiary search.

Anyone?

There was; the [item]Slayer's Axe[/item]. The proc was removed from it fairly early in BC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
No - you're right, the above poster was way off at 900 DPS.

If you're doing 9200 caster RDPS per minute, and you managed to get 25% perfect uptime, you're going to do

(9200*45secs + 9200*1.15dmg*15secs) versus (9200*60secs), or 552,000 versus 572,700 (net gain 20,700 per minute, or about 345 dps).

You both are right. I can't seem to duplicate my completely failed math that generated my previous results, but each way I try comes up with ~330 dps increase. No idea what I was smoking that day.

Still better than meleeing with a caster weapon while in FR gear, which I don't think anyone will argue. Yes, situational still, never should be a raid standard.

Just out of curiosity, but i recall a mention in the rogue dps thread, that haste does not actually affect procs.

Nightfall would be one of those, but it'd need some research.

And I do get noticably more procs with Crusader up than without it. I do not know if the haste comment is true or not though, and eitherway, I don't know if Seal of the Crusader counts as Haste or not. (increases swing speed, Haste value doesn't change) Same result. Different mechanic? I don't know. I guess it would depend where the proc chance is checked:

- Current Swing Speed

- Base +/- Haste

- Base

Each of the 3 would yield a different proc rate with haste gear + Crusader up.

Clearly this test has a number of problems. I had to maintain a sunder stack while using Nightfall, and rage generation is going to differ substantially between this and Illidan. If anyone has any suggestions for better tests I might be able to try them.

This is why I haven't attempted to do the same tests. There are too many differences. For example, your hit rate on the Blasted Lands mob is going to be better than against Illidian, in addition to buffs/debuffs that will skew the number one direction or another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That's a bit of a gimmick though. Haste pots, recklessness, and potentially strength food and an assault flask, and yet another prot warrior running debuffs. Still you beat out the Mortal Strike warrior by a bit.

What I find impressive is the other protection warrior (why bring 3?) running 970 DPS while doing debuffs. That's pretty good.

Best I can do is about 700-800 depending on group make up with my pretty pathetic DPS gear. Few blues and almost no enchants and my gear is about 1/3 T4ish 1/3 T5ish 1/3 other :(

What gear and enchant level are you running with this? All T5 or better? T6?

Without any consumables on Teron in T5ish gear I run 1100 or so DPS (not sure where the WWS went :( ), only T6 piece I have is Archimonde's legs which aren't all that much better than S3 if not for vitality. I don't debuff TC but I do debuff demo, I just want to see a double Warglaive warrior do 2000 + as protection for entertainment purposes. I also have tried weapon swapping so I wouldn't have to buy executioner twice and on fights with a good deal of movement I tend to outdo most of the DPS (though not Gorefiend, silly DPS meter hounds must have their retarded stand and spam fights :( ). Heartless (Executioner)/Talon of Azshara (Crusader) with Fury (Potency) offhand, just typical hourglass/bloodlust brooch trinkets. Usually not in the melee group albeit the only thing I'd be missing out on are ~100 extra AP from a better battle shout and Unleashed Rage.

How about Ironfoe for DW fury dps? Never used it myself, but the wowhead comments say it clones the last attack twice when it procs rather than just giving 2 autoattacks and can lead to nice results when a BT crit is cloned.

I was more curious if it procced Seal of Righteousness when it hit. Granted Ironfoe is completely unfarmable, at least if you have my luck, but it'd be a pretty nice buff to Paladin threat if it did.

As for Nightfall, I'd imagine a prot paladin offtank is the only one who could always use it, apart from the above statements.

The rivenspike debuff lasts 30 seconds so its possible to just swap in every once in a while and hope for a proc to refresh or some such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently crafted a [item]Nightfall[/item] for the fights where I'm co-tanking/dps. The math I've seen here so far mirrors my own experience: the casters notice the proc and increased dps, I notice a reasonable loss of personal dps, and the loss/gain seem to be pretty close to each other. At this point (just recently killed Archi), my dual-wield set isn't that great, so the retro-axe serves a purpose. I can see the day in the not-so-distant future, however, where any potential gains from the axe will be overshadowed by what I can do with fury-warrior hand me downs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our prot pally for felmyst crafted one for the first time the other day. The proc is really nice and noticable. He put a 20 haste weightstone on it and the uptime was pretty noticable. Its nice because his dps is bad as prot anyways so hes actually being useful since for felmyst we have a caster heavy raid to begin with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're crafting a couple of Nightfalls for our prot tanks to whip out during Brutallus when they're not the current tank. Anyone already doing this for Brutallus that has a WWS parse of the effect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We're crafting a couple of Nightfalls for our prot tanks to whip out during Brutallus when they're not the current tank. Anyone already doing this for Brutallus that has a WWS parse of the effect?

Wow Web Stats

Used one while tanking our Brut kill last night.

Was it worth it though? From what I've been told by the caster group, it was. Procced only four times during the kill attempt, so 20sec uptime on a 6:22 kill (5.2% uptime, or a 0.75% overall magical dps increase). My DPS in tank gear is quite poor, and my only responsibility when not the active tank is to maintain sunder and thunderclap. I certainly don't lose too much personal DPS by equipping it and simply spamming sunder.

If my math is correct:

We had about 16.4k magical dps, so the 4 nightfall procs should account for about a 123rdps increase, or just over 47k raw damage.

Necessary? Obviously not. But if you're pulling up just a bit short on DPS, and you have one handy, you might as well let your casters set some new critline records. Considering that I'm only using it for 15 to 20 seconds at a time, and only equip it 5 or 6 times in the fight, a free 47k damage return isn't terrible. There were also previous attempts where it procced 8 or 9 times, where the raid DPS would have seen a more substantial boost. Depends on your tank setup too... If you use two warriors or Warr/Pally and you give one to each of them, you'll obviously see a larger return as well. We went warr/feral, so one axe is all we'll use.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We're crafting a couple of Nightfalls for our prot tanks to whip out during Brutallus when they're not the current tank. Anyone already doing this for Brutallus that has a WWS parse of the effect?

I swap it on while not tanking, procced four times on our kill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also use it on Brutallus while our feral tank has him, I got it to proc 7 times on our first kill and 8 times on our second. I'm not sure if it counts refreshes but I've seen it refresh multiple times. I spam sunder the entire time he is tanking until 5 seconds before I need to taunt. Quartz shows when the boss is affected by "Spell Vulnerability".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How about Ironfoe for DW fury dps? Never used it myself, but the wowhead comments say it clones the last attack twice when it procs rather than just giving 2 autoattacks and can lead to nice results when a BT crit is cloned.

I did get lucky enough to have one of these drop during my one BRD run on my warrior alt and win it over the other 4 people who rolled because it was epic. Put a crusader on it and kept it to 70.

I leveled from 50 to 70 with a prot specc, and the procc on ironfoe can activate from devastate and other instant attacks (like the old windfury), in addition to activating on itself and on windfury. It was quite insane to be tanking the initial outland instances with a shaman following me around, and I'd often do significantly more dps than the guy in second place, while running around in prot gear and a shield. Several proccs on top of each other for double-didgit attacks instantly were infrequent but more than once a day.

I could roll my mousewheel in 5 mans and spam heroic strike almost every swing with all the rage I had available.

Not 'till I got the PvP sword was anything I found close to a dps increase with devastate spam. And the nay-sayers said that I'd replace it the moment I hit hellfire. Pah!

But... I've lost track of the original question. No, it does not clone previous attacks. It simply does another two auto-attacks.

EDIT: Also, the procc was hilarious in battlegrounds when I newly hit 70, running around with my shield and ironfoe slapping people for almost no damage, and landing a few kills with 60% - 0% instant bursts. A couple of guys logged horde characters to ask me how I was able to talk dwarvish with them. Too bad it only works in /say and /yell.

Good times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the debuff priority of Bashguuder? I'm thinking of farming one but it won't be worth the time if it just gets bumped off.

Also, is there a way to sneak to his room without going by all the spiders, aside from using an invisibility potion to get past them? I'm not that familiar with LBRS unfortunately, but it looks like I will be soon!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't there a debuff priority thread around somewhere ?

If there isn't then it's time someone makes one I think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.