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Flamingcloud

WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

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If I was level 80 with my current stats ( including rating scaling), a 0/21/50 would totally decimate any other kind of spec. The only talent I m dubious about is the ont that increase immo/conflag/shadow crit by 10% looks like a pvp talent mostly considering you're never going to cast conflag in a raid cycle and that you won't have to refresh immolation so the 10% crit is mostly useless.

Actually, I skipped Imp Immolate, Conflag, and that talent entirely for my hypothetical raiding builds. You're only going to cast Immolate once in a blue moon thanks to Incinerate refreshing it, so increasing its initial damage isn't going to be that useful. Similarly, you only rarely use Conflagrate in raids. As you won't be casting Immolate, won't be casting Conflagrate, and Shadowflame is a short range cone, that talent is definitely PvP.

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I could be off but the models I've seen so far of

"Eradication(25 point) - Your Corruption, Siphon Life, and Curse of Agony ticks have a 5/10/15% chance to increase your spell casting speed by 20% for 8 sec. This effect has a 10 second cooldown."

seem way off from what I expect to see. I will try and ignore for a second that COA is unlikely to be up there on a boss.

First off, I am assuming one target (because obviously the interesting part of this is for multi-target dotting imho -- particularly Atrocity, the 15y AOE corruption).

I am not sure about the 'normal' cast order of the dots, so I'll assume COA->CORR->siphon. It shouldn't affect much the results the order that you do them, but in any case, this is what I assume. This also assume no spell haste.

0.0 - [COA cast]

0.5 -

1.0 -

1.5 - [CORR cast]

2.0 - COA tick

2.5 -

3.0 - [siphon cast]

3.5 -

4.0 - COA tick

4.5 - CORR tick

5.0 -

5.5 -

6.0 - COA tick, siphon tick

6.5 -

7.0 -

7.5 - CORR tick

8.0 - COA tick

8.5 -

9.0 - siphon tick

9.5 -

10.0 - COA tick

10.5 - CORR tick

11.0 -

11.5 -

12.0 - COA tick, siphon tick

Each of those basically mean you have 15% chance to proc Eradication, but if eradication procs, then for 10s it won't proc. In other words, it might take on average ~6 seconds to get a proc. So picture roughly 8 seconds of downtime for 8 seconds of uptime.

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Personally I don't like affliction at all for leveling and I am planning on leveling as 0/21/40 shadow with new points going into soulleech/shadowfury/kindred soul and aftermath. Felguard/ruin also looks good with new points going into fel synergy, demonic resilience, and getting those 25 good talents in early destro since the hit will be needed as you level.

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Well the machine gun imp spec would basically use felguard (but with a bunch of wasted talents) in situations where it would die. Felguard isn't that brittle.. It would basically be getting 2pc T5, -5% dmg taken, and +1000hp at level 70 levels from the new talents.

You're right. I somehow got the idea Demonic Pact only applied to the imp. It applies to all pets.

With reference to the original post. Unholy power has never been threat reduction. It is and will still be +20% pet dmg. Master demonologist is threat reduction when using imp and are being changed as you stated.

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Planning fire destro for leveling I think with sacced VW for 2shotting mobs fun ^^

I m curious to see how haste rating will scale. Mainly because by the time the expansion is released I will be full sunwell with around 25% haste. Dps will take quite a hit going level 80.

Other than that, I m currently scratching my head trying to figure out how I ll spe once 3.0 is out ( before the expansion). Probably full destro or sacri/destro. and thanks to the new cataclysm we will be able to take every single sunwell item ( magister staff going the way of the dodo :p )

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Assuming the talents/spell changes come out before the expansion I don't see any reason to spec something other than 0/21/40 at 70 for pure damage. A 48/3/10 spec would certainly take over as the best utility malediction/shadow embrace lock spec (over 40/0/21, and 43/8/10).

Edit: Corrected a couple errors on the orignal post and add a new spell.. Demonic Circle.

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Something else interesting I found in the files.

Shadow Ward (Rank 6)

670 Mana

Instant cast 30 sec cooldown

Absorbs 3300 shadow damage. Lasts 30 sec.

Seems as though they are significantly buffing shadow ward.

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Wouldn't 1/21/49 be the way to go for fire destro with a point in Imp Corr to help with molten core uptime. Even at 80 or even 60% have immo fall off would be extremely rare especially with any amount of haste.

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You are assuming the molten core proc is on dot tick, my assumption is that it is on dot application. Even if it is on dot tick, you can't achieve any kind of good uptime with just corruption. 1-0.9^2 for 19% uptime or a +1.9% dmg increase, costing you 4-5 talents as well as a lot dmg for casting corruption instead of incin(corruption isnt at +15% like your fire spells) and loss of +critical damage.

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Just a guess - but it seems that Metamorphosis is a way for a warlock to _become_ the VoidWalker so that they could tank an instance. I'm guessing at least 5-persons/heroics, and perhaps even serve as an offtank in some raid encounters. It seems strange to give a class a new role (though warlocks traditionally tank in Leo and other fights). Whether or not this talent goes live its presence in the Alpha shows that apparently nothing is off the table. :D

EDIT: Whoops! 45sec duration. I leave the post as a testament to my stupidity. Eek!

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Just a guess - but it seems that Metamorphosis is a way for a warlock to _become_ the VoidWalker so that they could tank an instance. I'm guessing at least 5-persons/heroics, and perhaps even serve as an offtank in some raid encounters. It seems strange to give a class a new role (though warlocks traditionally tank in Leo and other fights). Whether or not this talent goes live its presence in the Alpha shows that apparently nothing is off the table. :D

It only turns you into a demon 45 seconds every 5 minutes. Since warlocks wear cloth you wouldn't even have more than 10k armor at level 70 and things that hit hard would smoke you still.

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Wouldn't 1/21/49 be the way to go for fire destro with a point in Imp Corr to help with molten core uptime. Even at 80 or even 60% have immo fall off would be extremely rare especially with any amount of haste.

Probably not. Corruption ticks 6 times, meaning you'll have 6 10% chances to increase fire damage by 10% for 6 seconds. That's very roughly 50% chance to get a proc per Corruption. So that's a minimum of three seconds spent casting Corruption for 6 seconds of 10% extra damage. So long as three seconds of casting Incinerate is at least 6% more damage than Corruption it's not a worthwhile investment.

Assuming no other buffs but DSing an Imp and CoE (w/o Malediction), at 1k spell damage Incinerate will hit for ~1.75k damage. Corruption will do ~1.8k damage. However, with an 20% crit rate Incinerate's damage averages ~2.5k. That's well more than 6% more, and that's for only 2.25 seconds of cast time.

You'll also be reducing the extra crit bonus by 2% per point spent on Corruption. It's just not worth it as it stands.

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I have a feeling molten core will turn out better than it is right now. As long as demonic sacrifice gives +shadow or +fire there is no way for a hybrid destruction build to function without the talent being very good on its own.

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I have a feeling molten core will turn out better than it is right now. As long as demonic sacrifice gives +shadow or +fire there is no way for a hybrid destruction build to function without the talent being very good on its own.

Well, Immolate counts as a DoT. So long as Molten Core procs off of DoT ticks and not just applications (assuming the refresh doesn't count as a application), then you shouldn't have to worry about casting Shadow spells for it to pop up from time to time.

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Since we've already railed on Corruption, that leaves Curse of Agony. Assuming you already have CoS and CoE up, which is the only situation you should be using anything else...

At 1k spell damage CoA will do approximately 2.5k damage. Incinerate will average approximately 2.75k damage (CoE included this time). CoD will do about 6k damage. CoA is cast 2.5 times a minute. So for two minutes we have:

5 CoAs = 12.5k damage + (1.06 * .19) [damage increase factoring in uptime] * .9-1k DPS [Approximate Estimate of normal DPS]

Total: 12.7k

vs

2 CoDs + 2 Incinerates = 12k + 5.5k

Total: 17.5k

Blizzard will need to up the ante with more than one significant crossover talent if they want Shadow/Fire synergy to work.

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Well since your armory links to a rogue and I can't check your gear level, and the majority of that data is on trash with no cor/sunder/faeriefire/retpaly etc it isn't all that useful of information. Regardless demonic empowerment is not really a raid talent unless pet scaling is buffed significantly and you can find a way to get empowerments off while moving or when losing a global isn't a problem.

True - very true

Just trying to provide more solid information now: The World of Warcraft Armory

Kaz rogal 3m 30 sek

75 hits/436 avg

29 hits/546 avg

Winterchill 4m

94 hits/494 avg

30 hits/618 avg

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As a whole it would appear that they're building most of the new talents with PvP in mind...While I certainly PvP I'm much more of a raider and am quite disappointed with how things are looking at the moment. Affliction especially looks mediocre. I can appreciate the synergy they are trying to create with Haunt + Atrocity, along with the effects Corruption will be able to bring, but as a 51-point talent I gotta say atrocity is entirely too situational and would rather they completely think up another idea.

As for the talent that renews Corruption? I'd much rather it Give Shadowbolt/Drain Life a chance to make the next Corruption tick harder (rather than renew the duration.) God knows they're going to screw up the renewal mechanic and make you lose out on a tick, or miss out on several ticks of a +dmg trinket boosted Corruption, etc.

EDIT: Unless crit effects DoT damage in some meaningful way I'm actually going to have to go with 50/21/0 over 50/0/21. You lose out on DP, but +15% shadow damage is mighty strong compared to Bane/Ruin.

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While the concept of the refreshing debuff talents is nice (as well as the fat 10% crit bonus to the line) it seems counterintuitive to many earlier talents like Imp. Immolate and Backdraft where as not having to refresh corruption reinforces Nightfall (which is something of a weak talent at the moment).

The hybrid efforts are a nice idea, but really suffer without improved corruption. The only time I can see a zero-affliction Destruction Warlock using shadow spells is Shadowfury, Shadowflame and Seed, but why would you want a 10% fire boost when you're going to be running shadow nukes? (Unless they really do something crazy with hellfire).

Torture is a nice idea, shadow crit trigger ability makes sense with the higher crit rate AOE talents (and AOE by nature scoring you multiple chances to crit) but for Searing Pain or Immolate? Disappointing.

All three of the 51 point talents seem very PVP oriented.

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EDIT: Unless crit effects DoT damage in some meaningful way I'm actually going to have to go with 50/21/0 over 50/0/21. You lose out on DP, but +15% shadow damage is mighty strong compared to Bane/Ruin.

I played abit with leulier, my gear and 40/x/x variants. I know it's a bad example/comparison but look at this :

Solo boss environment, saccing succubus in the 40/21/0 variant, both using SB as filler :

40/0/0 = 816 dps

40/21/0 = 932 dps. 21 Demo adds 116 dps. Main selling points : Fel Intellect, Demonic Aegis, Demonic Sacrifice

40/0/21 = 1071 dps. 21 Destro adds 255 dps. Main selling points : Imp SB, Bane, Devastation, Ruin

Even with Unstable Affliction 'forced' into a 41+x/x/x variant, 21 destro still pulls ahead.

Adding 1 point in Demonic Sacrifice was worth 103 dps.

But adding 5 points into Bane only was worth 85 dps. Getting Ruin is another 46 dps.

103 DS vs 131 Bane + Ruin...

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I don't understand why they have a 35pt destro talent that suddenly asks locks to go get some spirit. Why not have it tied to a different stat altogether, perhaps stam. A 5% stam converted to spell dmg with every crit temporarily increasing stamina seems to have much more of a lock flavor to me.

They're trying to homogenize gear.

In TBC:

Druids had Heart of the Wild increase AP instead of STR so they could share leather DPS drops with Rogues.

Ret Paladins had several mechanics changes to nearly eliminate spell damage coefficients so they could share plate DPS drops with Warriors.

In WOTLK:

Balance Druids and Shadow Priests are getting 20% additional healing to spell damage conversion talents to make a [item]Gladiator's Salvation[/item] give as much spell damage as a [item]Gladiator's Gavel[/item].

Shadow Priests are getting better benefits from spell crit from Shadow Power increasing crit damage bonus, as well as Improved Spirit Tap proccing on spell crits.

Holy Priests are getting better benefits from spell crit from various new talents/effects proccing off crits.

Arcane Mages are getting extra incentives to use SPI.

And with these Warlock changes, Warlocks are getting extra incentives to use SPI.

The idea is to streamline cloth drops by making spell damage, spell hit (all high spell hit talents got lowered), spell haste, spell crit, INT and SPI all roughly equally desirable by all casters. Priests and Druids can wear a single set of healing gear for both healing and DPS, and the rest can apply to all 4 casters.

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Has there been information on the debuff limit? With the addition of death knights & new debuffs to existing classes it will be a nightmare to play an affliction lock if the limit isnt raised from 40.

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Has anyone noticed if Pet Scaling (with Crit and Hit and Hopefully Haste) has been implemented?

Scaling overall has been the main reason with the standard cookie cutter Raiding talent spec of 0/21/40

- DoTs don't crit and thus scaling with T6 gear was not as great as a Ruin spec

- Pets only scale with spell damage, not crit, spell hit or haste.

Im not sure how well Affliciton scaling has improved, there seems to be some benifits to SB casting (spell haste increases, not needing to refresh Dots and perhaps more nightfall procs if Corruption is on multiple targets (if thats possable and desirable) which could help in making Affliciton scale better with other stats besides +dmg.

Demonology has Fel Synergy (Your Summoned Demons share an additional 10% of your Armor, Intellect and Stamina, and you have a 100% chance to heal your pet for 15% of the amount of damage done by you.) which will add some more spell damage from Demonic Knowledge but otherwise the tree looks like changing the game mechanics to add crit to the felguard would imbalance Impowered Imp?

Demonic Pact is based on Pet hit rating, pet (hit) scaling would be nice there... Has anyone figured the current chance of uptime with standard felguard hit ratings now?

(I have written this from the view of a Felguard PVE raider if its not obvious).

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My reading of metamorphosis is a pure PvP talent. The idea would seem to be wait until you're about to die, morph and go on a 45s rampage.

I'll probably raid something like 0/48/23.

Pitiful attempt at math, assuming 5 strikes after buff is refreshed (2, 4, 6, 8, 10)

1 pt, 07% hit ergo 93% miss, P(M*5) = 93% **5 = 69.57%

2 pt, 14% hit ergo 86% miss, P(M*5) = 86% **5 = 47.04%

3 pt, 21% hit ergo 79% miss, P(M*5) = 79% **5 = 30.77%

4 pt, 28% hit ergo 72% miss, P(M*5) = 72% **5 = 19.35%

5 pt, 35% hit ergo 65% miss, P(M*5) = 65% **5 = 11.60%

So 3/5 will have a fair downtime on that buff, it depends how much you want that threat reduction.

It's also possible the 5th strike won't land in time dramatically increasing the downtime.

P(0.3)*P(H*3) of a (3*5 0 1 2) cycle;

P(0.7) of a (3*8) cycle;

assuming P(H*3) = 1 we see upper bound 3*5+1+2 = 18/8% = 2.25% increase on first cycle

3% on second suggests overall upper bound 2.775% actual group buff, I *guess* at an actual as low as 2%.

Lower bound 0% of course since it may never proc, average gets icky.

The upper bound assumption becomes looser as P(M) increases.

Most likely of all, Blizz tweak the numbers between now and release ^^;

I agree Affl will probably be the Naxx build of choice, something like this.

I'm very curious how much single target DPS haunt will offer.

Currently raiding as demo, looking forward to ruin :D

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And what is up with Kindred Soul? Napkin math means that unless the spirit bonus from crits is huge, it will either require more spirit on gear, or there needs to be some other bonus to having spirit. Especially given that most Destruction trees will have Demo as a minor, specifically the talent that gives stam, but reduces spirit.
The +30% spirit from crits actually sounds like a spell damage boost since Kindling also increases spell damage by 10% of your spirit. Basically every time you crit, you'll get 13% spirit as +damage instead of 10%.

edit: just noticed fel armor gives us regen while casting, I guess kindling is also nice for this :P

edit2: Also, since locks will have a reason to stack spirit, what we have now is not a good indication of how good/bad this talent is.

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