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Rannasha

Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion

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This is an extra 1100 damage with 100 energy with the best gear (though unbuffed) excluding another 15% with Feral Aggression, another 10% with Naturalist and another 10% with Predatory Instincts if it crits. This would be an additional 3061 damage if it crits (although this is obviously assuming the best case senario). IMO I don't think they could buff it more than that otherwise it would be far too much burst.

It only affects the extra energy. So it's 786 extra damage (65*11*1.1) not 1100, and 1620 on crit (1863 with talent). I don't even know where you pulled that 3k+ number from. I would much rather have an even larger burst over 1-2 seconds more using Shred or even Mangle. It's just not worth the energy.

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It wasn't mentioned in the OP, but IIRC, Ferocious Bite's energy to damage conversion will scale with AP.

As well, Tiger's Fury will no longer cost any energy, but will have a cooldown instead (I'm not sure how long though).

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It wasn't mentioned in the OP, but IIRC, Ferocious Bite's energy to damage conversion will scale with AP.

As well, Tiger's Fury will no longer cost any energy, but will have a cooldown instead (I'm not sure how long though).

Added. Both those changes are long overdue. TF has been a "why even put it on your bar?" ability for as long as i can remember and OoC is the only clearcasting-talent that can be dispelled.

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It only affects the extra energy. So it's 786 extra damage (65*11*1.1) not 1100, and 1620 on crit (1863 with talent). I don't even know where you pulled that 3k+ number from. I would much rather have an even larger burst over 1-2 seconds more using Shred or even Mangle. It's just not worth the energy.

I know it only effects extra energy, I was simply assuming the best conditions for it and I never said it would be better than using a shred or mangle before it either. I was simply suggesting that in a single move that imo it would be too much burst if they increased it any more. I see our Feriocous Bite as a quick way to either burn all your energy before a shift or a PVP finisher so while you could use a shred or mangle before it then there is a chance in the global cooldown that they could out range you or get healed.

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Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.

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Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.

I saw somewhere it was off GCD but I dont see the confirmed anywhere. Not that big a deal though, you'd likely have times in your cycle where an extra GCD wouldn't be a huge detriment. Now it MAY become beneficial to rip->mangle then wait for near full energy again to TF->start shredding. Its only once every 30 sec anyways so it'll be somewhere near once per 3 cycles use anyways.

Im curious if they're going to add another finisher for us to use. With 15% more crit from Shred and 4% more from master shapeshifter, our combo point generation will be extremely fast. Already I'm more often than not using 5 point rips just because I need to throw in extra shreds in my cycle due to high crit rate. This is assuming crit rate will increase again with the expansion. Already feral crit rate is pretty high. They may try and reign that in some.

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Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.

See no reason for a duration change.

DPS Cycle will be:

Trinkets on rip > Tiger's Fury on Mangle > Shred.

The only difference is you have to avoid powershifting while Tiger's Fury is up. A simple modification to FeralKit to check for existance of Tiger's Fury before cancelling form will work.

Also, every third cycle, you will be waiting for max energy rather than powershift like a mofo.

*edit* Another finisher to a cycle is too much. Assuming perfect crits and doing 4CP Rips and Ferocious Bites, even with 2pc t6 bonus, 29 energy mangle, 3x 42 energy shreds, 30 energy rip, is already 185 energy. You also wouldn't be able to powershift enough and build combo points due to having to wait a tick for each shred and the constant gcd's.

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*edit* Another finisher to a cycle is too much. Assuming perfect crits and doing 4CP Rips and Ferocious Bites, even with 2pc t6 bonus, 29 energy mangle, 3x 42 energy shreds, 30 energy rip, is already 185 energy. You also wouldn't be able to powershift enough and build combo points due to having to wait a tick for each shred and the constant gcd's.

My point was a "buff" finisher ala Slice and Dice, since using FB in the cycle is pretty weak. Its kinda clear the FB is a PvP/Soloing move especially with the increased DPE that makes it nice burst but still terribly inefficient DPE. Either that or a finisher that is still effective at lower than max combo points. Currently FB is only more efficient than shred at 5 CPs. If FB was efficient at like 3 CP or something it would fit into a cycle with high crit reasonably (maybe every couple of cycles or something).

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In terms of the talents if they stay as they are, I was wondering what an "ideal" level 70 PvE spec will be. I'd assume we'll actually get these talents pre-expansion (like last time) so it may be worthwhile to look into.

I came up with: War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

I don't like giving up ILotP but almost everything else seems more valuable. I also dont like losing savage fury but again it only affects solo grinding/minor dps loss in raids.

At 80, the ideal PvE spec would probably throw the remaining 10 points into:

1 OOC

3 Natural Shapeshifter

2 Master Shapeshifter

2 Savage Fury (or 1 SF 1 Thick hide, if armor is really needed).

2 ILotP

Thoughts?

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In terms of the talents if they stay as they are, I was wondering what an "ideal" level 70 PvE spec will be. I'd assume we'll actually get these talents pre-expansion (like last time) so it may be worthwhile to look into.

I came up with: War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

I don't like giving up ILotP but almost everything else seems more valuable. I also dont like losing savage fury but again it only affects solo grinding/minor dps loss in raids.

At 80, the ideal PvE spec would probably throw the remaining 10 points into:

1 OOC

3 Natural Shapeshifter

2 Master Shapeshifter

2 Savage Fury (or 1 SF 1 Thick hide, if armor is really needed).

2 ILotP

Thoughts?

I'd go with something similar. Would take Thick hide max though and not touch savage fury.

For the remaining point I had I didn't really know what to do wtih it, chucked it in Infected Wounds. We'll have to see how the Death Knight theory crafting turns out, adding those extra diseased from infected wounds might be a significant DPS boost for them though, I've seen a few things that either consume diseases or are more powerful the number of diseases on the target so we'll have to see there.

I kind of agree on Imp.LotP, I love it solo but at max level in raiding we rarely see a use for it these days, the raid damage is just too large and inconsistent on most fights for it to be of much use. If DK's do get a decent benefit from us throwing up diseases I'd be tempted to stick the Imp.LotP points in Infected wounds for 3/5.

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In terms of the talents if they stay as they are, I was wondering what an "ideal" level 70 PvE spec will be. I'd assume we'll actually get these talents pre-expansion (like last time) so it may be worthwhile to look into.

I came up with: War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

I don't like giving up ILotP but almost everything else seems more valuable. I also dont like losing savage fury but again it only affects solo grinding/minor dps loss in raids.

At 80, the ideal PvE spec would probably throw the remaining 10 points into:

1 OOC

3 Natural Shapeshifter

2 Master Shapeshifter

2 Savage Fury (or 1 SF 1 Thick hide, if armor is really needed).

2 ILotP

Thoughts?

I would choose Savage Fury instead of Primal Precision. 10 Expertise is in my gear 6 DPS and the energy cost refund sounds nice, but is only on finishers and with being 2,5% short on the expertise cap wearing current gear you get a very small benefit of that. 20% more mangle damage is rougly 30 dps more in a normal raid dps cycle and 20% more damage in solo play/pvp ;).

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Could anyone clarify if TF remained the 6 sec duration? if it did it will be one more ability that you have to time to fit your cycle so you get maximum benefit out of it.

Says 6 sec in the tooltip and it doesn't activate the global cooldown.

Also just to add, SotF gives 2%/4%/6% stats as well as the 2%/4%/6% crit reduction

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I would choose Savage Fury instead of Primal Precision. 10 Expertise is in my gear 6 DPS and the energy cost refund sounds nice, but is only on finishers and with being 2,5% short on the expertise cap wearing current gear you get a very small benefit of that. 20% more mangle damage is rougly 30 dps more in a normal raid dps cycle and 20% more damage in solo play/pvp ;).

It says 10 expertise not 10 expertise rating. Unless Im reading too much into the details, but arnt other classes' talents like that too?

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It says 10 expertise not 10 expertise rating. Unless Im reading too much into the details, but arnt other classes' talents like that too?

Other expertise-talents also give expertise rather than expertise rating. The whole expertise vs expertise rating business seems a bit needlessly complicated. They could've just created the "expertise rating" stat and from that derive the dodge/parry reduction (like is done with hit rating already) without the in-between step of "expertise". Talents could've been readjusted to read "Reduces the chance your attacks are dodged or parried by X%".

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Other expertise-talents also give expertise rather than expertise rating. The whole expertise vs expertise rating business seems a bit needlessly complicated. They could've just created the "expertise rating" stat and from that derive the dodge/parry reduction (like is done with hit rating already) without the in-between step of "expertise". Talents could've been readjusted to read "Reduces the chance your attacks are dodged or parried by X%".

ok than my post is irrelevant ;)

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I'm thinking the way the feral tree is looking, it is not a choice to either spec cat dps persay or bear tanking, but I think it may be geared at making you choose between being Main tank material or being an off-tank/dps player. Presumably the latter is designed so you have enough to offtank but not quite to main tank on the 25 man raid, but enough to main tank a 5-man or 10-man regardless?

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I'm thinking the way the feral tree is looking, it is not a choice to either spec cat dps persay or bear tanking, but I think it may be geared at making you choose between being Main tank material or being an off-tank/dps player. Presumably the latter is designed so you have enough to offtank but not quite to main tank on the 25 man raid, but enough to main tank a 5-man or 10-man regardless?

War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

This has pretty much all you need, talent wise, for DPSing and MTing. You have 2 free points too. One can go to maxing thick hide, the other into Savage Fury, Primal Tenacity even feral aggression. Or you could put two into one of these other talents and neglect one point from thick hide.

The tradeoff is quite minor for any of these choices. The only real MT talent you'd be missing is feral aggression (since demo roar is apparently getting better), but even then it seems as though the warrior one is STILL better then ours and the MT himself doesn't need to be the one putting up Demo anyways.

The talent tree, as is, does make the split between PvE feral and PvP feral though. You definitely don't have enough talent points to get all of the infected claws points, NI, primal tenacity etc which are all solid PvP talents, along with the PvE ones.

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War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

This has pretty much all you need, talent wise, for DPSing and MTing. You have 2 free points too. One can go to maxing thick hide, the other into Savage Fury, Primal Tenacity even feral aggression. Or you could put two into one of these other talents and neglect one point from thick hide.

The tradeoff is quite minor for any of these choices. The only real MT talent you'd be missing is feral aggression (since demo roar is apparently getting better), but even then it seems as though the warrior one is STILL better then ours and the MT himself doesn't need to be the one putting up Demo anyways.

The talent tree, as is, does make the split between PvE feral and PvP feral though. You definitely don't have enough talent points to get all of the infected claws points, NI, primal tenacity etc which are all solid PvP talents, along with the PvE ones.

Take one point out of imp lotp, drop them in Savage Fury and Thick Hide.

If you get enough hit and expertise that you are no-dodge no-miss without it, you can drop a point in Primal Precision.

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Here's the latest patch notes from the new Alpha that was released last night:

Druid

* Soothe Animal now works on dragonkin

* Challenging Roar cooldown changed to 3 minutes

* Maul description changed to "A strong attack that increases melee damage by $s1 and causes a high amount of threat."

* Moonglow now affects Starfall and Wrath too

* Celestial Focus, Vengeance, Focused Starlight - now affect Starfall too

* Predatory strikes

o "Increases your melee attack power in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear and Moonkin Forms by 50%/100%/150% of your level and 7%/14%/20% of any attack power on your equipped weapon."

* Natures Swiftness - added "with a casting time less than 10 sec." to description

* Improved tranquility threat modifier changed to 30%/60%

* Ferocious Bite and Rip damage values changed

* Entangling roots now tick every second

* Lunar Guidance changed to 4%/8%/12%

* Nurturing Instinct increased healing changed to 35%/70%

* Empowered Touch changed to 20%/40%

* Mangle debuff now affects mangle too

* Owlkin frenzy - haste effect changed to "immune to pushback while casting Balance spells."

* Primal Precision 30%/60% changed to 40%/80%

* Primal Aggression changed to "Increases damage done by your Maul and Shred attacks on bleeding targets by 2%/4%/6%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 10%/20%/30%."

* Infected Wounds proc chance changed to 33%/66%/100%

* Reinforced Hide replaced by King of the Jungle

o "While Enraged in Bear form or Dire Bear form, your damage is increased by 5%/10%/15%, and your Tiger's Fury ability also instantly restores 20/40/60 energy"

* Living Seed proc chance changed to 33%/66%/100% and effect changed to 30%

* Starfall secondary damage radius reduced to 5 yards

* Natures Fury removed effect "Converts $s2% of your bonus healing into bonus spell damage"

* Berserk Reduces - Energy regeneration replaced by reduced energy cost of all abilities. Also Mangle (Bear) and Maul abilities hit up to 3 maximum targets.

* Replenish - proc chance changed to 5%/10%/15%

* Gnaw renamed to Lock Jaw, description says "stuns the target and deals damage", otherwise unchanged

* Nourish - Additional heal changed to "Heals for an additional 12% for each Rejuvenation, Regrowth, or Lifebloom effect cast by you active on the target."

Source - General: 8391 Changes - Full list

edit: Further down in the discussion, at the link above, someone asks what Gnaw/Lock Jaw is. It says:

Level 75, 25 energy. Kitty version of kidney shot

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Here's the latest patch notes from the new Alpha that was released last night:

<snip>

I don't think mangle effects mangle, got this from Chickens datamining thing:

Mangle the target for 115% normal damage plus 252 and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from Maul and bleed effects for 12 sec.

Mangle the target for 160% normal damage plus 429 and causes the target to take 30% additional damage from Shred and bleed effects for 12 sec. Awards 1 combo point.

Overall some good and some bad.

Predatory Strikes got a nice buff that also scales with gear so thats one of my complaints out of the way.

I didn't think Nurturing Instinct needed to be nerfed and actually thought that it could have done with a small buff (since they don't give us PVP rings/necks/cloaks/trinkets/weapons/idols with agi on).

Shame about Reinforced Hide getting removed (or at least the magic damage part of it). I'm hopping that it will be added to Thick Hide.

Looking forward to using Mangle (Bear) with Berserk :)

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Changing the Enrage from double energy regeneration to halved energy cost is almost a null change except for two things: queuing energy beforehand (netting it an additional 100 effective energy), and Ferocious Bite. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it affects Ferocious Bite. On the assumption that it doesn't change the energy->dmg conversion, it nets you some extra energy for conversion there... but that energy is worth twice as much. And I think that makes it inferior in that regard to the previous iteration, but I'm not completely sure. However with queuing netting (80 to) 100 free extra energy, I think the change to its behavoir is an overall buff, unless you can fit more than two Bites into one enrage.

I am wrly amused that the cat form version is adrenaline rush, and the bear form version is... blade flurry =P.

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Changing the Enrage from double energy regeneration to halved energy cost is almost a null change except for two things: queuing energy beforehand (netting it an additional 100 effective energy), and Ferocious Bite. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how it affects Ferocious Bite. On the assumption that it doesn't change the energy->dmg conversion, it nets you some extra energy for conversion there... but that energy is worth twice as much. And I think that makes it inferior in that regard to the previous iteration, but I'm not completely sure. However with queuing netting (80 to) 100 free extra energy, I think the change to its behavoir is an overall buff, unless you can fit more than two Bites into one enrage.

The Berserk change to half energy instead of increased regen makes it a much better form of burst damage. It makes all of your current energy worth double as well as upcoming ticks. Imagine blowing all your cooldowns at once. Using it at 100 energy with enraged Tiger's Fury and popping a trinket if you can... That's effectively 320 energy. Not to mention 20 energy ticks are still effectively worth 40. The only difference is if you cannot use all the energy as you get it.

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Only other difference that leaps to mind is that it means you don't have as much extra energy to burn on FB. Assumedly still not going to be an attractive option but does impact that as well.

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Berserk will result in some funny cycles - I'm actually a little worried that I'll be able to use all the energy without spillover.


Energy                            Time         CP

80   Tick                             0s

62   Activate berserk, Mangle      0s     1-2 <-----assuming it isn't on the GCD

41   Shred                         1s     2-4

40   Tick, Shred                   2s     3-5

25   Rip                           3s     0

24   Tick, Shred                   4s     1-2

03   Shred                         5s     2-4

02   Tick, Shred                   6s     3-5         

01   Tick, Shred                   8s     4-5

60   Tick, Tiger's Fury, Shred     10s    5   <-----Tiger's Fury adds 60 energy

49   Shred                         11s    5

51   Tick, Mangle                  12s    5

30   Shred                         13s    5

29   Tick, Shred                   14s    5

14   Rip                           15s    0

13   Tick, Shred                   16s    1-2

12   Tick, Shred                   18s    2-4


Totals:

Mangle            1

Shred             7-8

Mangle (With TF)  1

Shred (With TF)   4-5

Rip               2



...All with no OOC/2T4 procs (I assume the effect is lost if you powershift)! The energy usage will be very very tight, but it presents an opportunity for very high DPS during that window. With a few 2t4/OOC procs you could be looking at as many as 14-15 shreds during the duration of the spell. Pretty nuts.

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