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Rannasha

Feral talents/abilities - WotLK discussion

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Changing the Enrage from double energy regeneration to halved energy cost is almost a null change except for two things: queuing energy beforehand (netting it an additional 100 effective energy), and Ferocious Bite.

There is another important effect with this change: think of procs you gain energy from (2T4). With doubled energy regeneration rate, those proccs are unaffected. But with energy cost cut to half, those procs are effectively doubled.

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Yes, but Omen procs will only have half the value as it is next attack free rather than a fixed amount of energy.

Also, with some of the gear links that have been posted, I doubt 2T4 would be justafiable in a DPS set.

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There is another important effect with this change: think of procs you gain energy from (2T4). With doubled energy regeneration rate, those proccs are unaffected. But with energy cost cut to half, those procs are effectively doubled.

If 2t4 proc will still be good at 80 level, Blizzard will nerf it, that’s for sure.

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* Primal Aggression changed to "Increases damage done by your Maul and Shred attacks on bleeding targets by 2%/4%/6%, and increases the critical strike chance of your Ferocious Bite ability on bleeding targets by 10%/20%/30%."

* Infected Wounds proc chance changed to 33%/66%/100%

edit: Further down in the discussion, at the link above, someone asks what Gnaw/Lock Jaw is. It says:

i believe they switched infected wounds and primal aggresions places and also changed each.

infected wounds while being much cheaper now reduces movement speed and attack speed by up to 50% so the mindnumb version is gone(possible rogues may get an attackspeed slowing posoin?)

new primal aggression goes up has 5 points required also meaning a 10% increase to shred and maul on bleeding targets/50% extra crit for ferocious bite on bleeding targets to.

seems to be they are making bearform much more dps orientated again and are finally bringing back the scalling we used to have(maul damage increased by mangle, also increased another 10% for one application of lacerate, also the melee attack speed reduction with infected wounds making us more anti-melee than we are currently)

i love the prospect of the new berzerk though for bear, makes for a real nice damage reduction when applying 3 stacks to 3 melee mobs at one time of infected wounds. that and the new kind of the jungle is very attractive, 60 energy restored every 30 seoonds on tigers fury use(hello rogue trinket?) and a nice 15% increased damage while enraged.

i think it's safe to say infected wounds will stay given it's actually very balanced

paladins have cleanse/BoP would make them immune to both it's affects

shamans have remove disease/totem/only lasts 6 seconds on a pvp spec

priests have aboloish/remove disease

druids themselves can remove it via shifting

rogues can use CoS to remove it

good amount of classes have counters to it but at the same time it's also still effective given its automatic application on use of mangle/maul and shred.

lets not mention activating berzerk and then hitting tigers fury for 60 energy regen and a quick burst potential.

that' my take anyway(though the new primal aggresion im unsure about how i feel)

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Berserk will result in some funny cycles - I'm actually a little worried that I'll be able to use all the energy without spillover.

...All with no OOC/2T4 procs (I assume the effect is lost if you powershift)! The energy usage will be very very tight, but it presents an opportunity for very high DPS during that window. With a few 2t4/OOC procs you could be looking at as many as 14-15 shreds during the duration of the spell. Pretty nuts.

Note - this is assuming current itemization. They'll also need to make new gear better than keeping t6 bonuses as well. We already know Improved Mangle reduces energy cost by 6. There could be any number of new bonuses to reduce costs or otherwise change ability usage. They might also make Rake worth using and fitting in to a rotation. In addition, with so much energy during Berserk it might finally be viable to fit in a FB between Rips. There are 9 attacks between Rips in this example.

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The talent trees on this site are already getting somewhat outdated sadly, but what does everyone think of this PVE MT build (with DPS as necessary):

War Pirate :: Talent tree Druid

Two points are left unassigned.

Another point could be found in my currently 2/5 infected wounds when that's changed to 1/3. I do think that having some points in there are going to be useful for PVE. It's not clear what % of raid mobs and bosses will be affected by it, but some certainly will. Also, from a PVE perspective, 100% chance is completely unnecessary, once you start hitting the mob consistently it will certainly reach 5 stacks. The update to a 33% chance and 3 talent means you could probably place just 1 point in it for a PVE build and 3 points for a PVP build.

Assuming you can get away with 1 in infected wounds, you have 3 points to assign:

PVE:

If you're going to be shouting mobs 2/5 in feral aggression should allow for CoR (from earlier in this thread, I have not confirmed this).

You could max improved mangle.

Savage Fury is a slight boost to cat dps, but improved mangle would probably work just as well.

PVP:

Brutal impact, nurturing instinct, or even primal tenacity are great choices for your final points.

Or if you're the only druid in your raid (doing 10 man versions of raids?) you can take 2/2 improved mark of the wild.

I'm kind of looking forward to the 3/3 in natural shapeshifter, my level 70 builds have never had this, but master shapeshifter looks like it's worthwhile to me.

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Improved Mangle is a must imo. It's decent for cat (better than 2t6) and huge for bear. I do agree 1 point in Infected Wounds for PvE. Imp LotP gets less and less valuable in comparison to other talents and I'd probably drop it for Savage Fury (or even Imp MotW if no restos).

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Improved Mangle is a must imo. It's decent for cat (better than 2t6) and huge for bear. I do agree 1 point in Infected Wounds for PvE. Imp LotP gets less and less valuable in comparison to other talents and I'd probably drop it for Savage Fury (or even Imp MotW if no restos).

Just one? I guess in extended tanking sessions you might be able to build up and then maintain a full stack, but I'd want 3 points in there just to get that 50% attack speed slow on there asap.

Which brings me to my main point of replying. 50% attack speed slow...what the fuck. Not even a 51 point talent. I know blizzard tacked on 20% slow to CoW, but this much slow makes no sense at all. That's enough slow to make a huge difference in learning curve if your healers happen to be used to healing with it and then all your ferals are absent one night.

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Well that's assuming bosses aren't made immune to it and it's not reduced to 50% speed reduced and 20% slow to bring it more in line with existing abilities.

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In my opinion, bosses will almost be guaranteed to immune to it. It's effectiveness in PvE would be on trash and boss adds, which will continue to play an even greater role in WotLK making many of those previously so called "PvP abilities", so called because the effects were immune on actual bosses, become rather useable and useful again.

Saying that I think infected wounds is the PvP arena ability Arena Feral druids have been waiting for and is by far the most exciting thing about the talents so far from a pvp perspective as other talents would have little bearing on feral druid popularity seeing that all classess will continue to scale evenly in dps.

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Improved Mangle is a must imo. It's decent for cat (better than 2t6) and huge for bear. I do agree 1 point in Infected Wounds for PvE. Imp LotP gets less and less valuable in comparison to other talents and I'd probably drop it for Savage Fury (or even Imp MotW if no restos).

Unless I missed something in the recent patch notes, isn't improved mangle virtually worthless for bear, since it doesn't even reduce it a full GCD?

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Mangle in bear is highest threat generator and is on 6 second cooldown. Why should it reduce GCD if you can spam it every 4 seconds instead of 6?

You are confusing the bear and cat versions of the ability

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Apaine, I don't think he is confused.

The current threat cycle, ignoring Maul, is Mangle then Swipe or Lacerate * 3. This fits the 6 second Mangle cooldown with the GCD of 1.5 secs so there is no time just waiting.

What we need to find out, to see if this talent is worth having in bear is will the threat be higher in a rotation of Mangle/Swipe/Swipe every 4.8 seconds or will the best remain Mangle/Swipe/Swipe/Swipe every 6.

Personally I think that being able to mangle secondary targets more often will make the talent worth picking up, even if the best boss rotation remains the same as before. This is definitely going to be a 0/3 or 3/3 talent though.

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The high amount of threat makes Mangle insanely better than any other ability we have. It is worth losing 1 ability and having dead time. Although, looking at logfiles abilities don't land at regular 1.5s intervals even when spamming them. Chances are you'll end up with less dead time. My Mangles are rarely exactly 6s apart as-is. While you don't end up waiting, you could be going beyond the cooldown instead.

You can't just assume cat or bear cycles will be the same then as they are now. Unless they drastically reduce Mangle's relative value it will still be worth using every cooldown and lowering that time at any cost. It sounds like they are only increasing it value. Depending on changes to Swipe bonuses (like 4t6), it might not be worth using on single targets anymore. In addition, think of limited threat situations where you can't spam 4 abilities every cycle anyway. We'll need to get all the numbers in to determine how much changes to Maul will impact its usefulness too. It might end up being better to spam Mangle/Maul and just Lacerate in between.

A shorter cooldown also means a higher uptime percentage of the debuff as well as any procs that might be associated with it later. A 6s cooldown and 12s duration means missing 2 in a row the debuff will be off at least 6s more. A 4.8s cooldown means missing 2 in a row the debuff will only be off 2.4s more. Hell, it might even be better to not take all the points. Think of only taking 2 points (5.16s x2 = 10.32s) to line up the cooldown so that you can Mangle again just as an [item]Idol of Terror[/item] proc is wearing off.

Future itemization and exact threat number changes will change the value greatly. However, unless something new is introduced to make keeping a longer cooldown a good thing, I can't imagine not taking the talent.

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* Reinforced Hide replaced by King of the Jungle

"While Enraged in Bear form or Dire Bear form, your damage is increased by 5%/10%/15%, and your Tiger's Fury ability also instantly restores 20/40/60 energy"

At first, I thought this ability applied to you while under the effect of Berserk. But then it occurred to me that it would be utterly pointless to have a talent that completely depended on another talent that is further down the tree.

But then I realised we already have a little ability called Enrage. Granted, the boost to enrage would be quite minor in pve, it would be quite handy for those situations when we are forced into bear form in pvp.

However, the effect on Tiger's Fury, on top of the current buffs, would then be pretty immense for both pve and pvp. Coupled with Beserk, this could give kitties some pretty crazy burst potential.

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Wasn't Warrior last stand getting it's cooldown reduced to something around 2 or 3 minutes? Even if the warrior version is at 5-minutes, pre-talents, I don't think that having the druid version be at 2 is horribly unbalancing, given that it's the 51 point talent and whatnot.

Have not heard of an upcoming reduce but warriors Last Stand is at 8Min CD at the moment and cannot be talented.

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Apaine, I don't think he is confused.

The current threat cycle, ignoring Maul, is Mangle then Swipe or Lacerate * 3. This fits the 6 second Mangle cooldown with the GCD of 1.5 secs so there is no time just waiting.

Mangle is so much better than either Swipe or Lacerate for threat, why would you keep to that cycle if you can use it sooner?

Reduced Mangle cd seems a win for me - easier to tab/aggro to keep threat on multiple targets and higher threat overall on a single target. The only real downside is that those talent points don't bring any benefit to Catform.

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So, there are some really nice additions to cat dps, which I think all would help contribute to tanking bear druids in tanking emphasized gear to still output some decent dps when converting to cat form to dps, which really is the sweet pvE appeal for a Feral Druid. Now they've removed the extra 10% AC Reinforced hide, armor once gain becomes more of a consideration on gear pieces, but the increase to SotF should at least allow more uniformity in feral druid tanking and dps gear. The holy grail being to have one set capable of doing both.

One thing left out is any improvement to claw. I do not think it is good design to have any ability become redundant. Reduced importance yes, this happens in most classes when you spec down a tree, making abilities you have in other spell schools less important, but still useable, Afterall the entire idea is to add diversity through more abilities to master. At the moment only levelling druids use claw, dps feral abilities. A large chunk I might add, of the feral arsenal being completely useless to balance and resto druids atm, I look forward to blizzard introducing a way that balance spell casting can benefit from occasionally and for short periods meleeing using feral forms, so those abilities aren't completely useless but see occasional use and also look forward for the feral tree once more providing just as good an alternative means of dps for Resto druids as the balance tree is, something the change to +healing on gear put the final nail in the resto/feral synergy coffin. No review has yet addressed that.

So that leaves Claw of any use only to feral druids, who ditch it once mangle comes. A talent that makes claw have a use again would be nice. Maybe a mangle critical hit gives your next claw a 40 energy reduction and 1.5 sec global cooldown reduction, would be nice. An alternative could also be, say Mangle crit on bleeding targets will cause your next claw to do twice as much damage at half the energy cost.

Or, we could go for effect, Claw could have 100% chance to do something cool every 10secs. Weaving it back into the ability cycle and back onto the action bar

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So, there are some really nice additions to cat dps, which I think all would help contribute to tanking bear druids in tanking emphasized gear to still output some decent dps when converting to cat form to dps, which really is the sweet pvE appeal for a Feral Druid. Now they've removed the extra 10% AC Reinforced hide, armor once gain becomes more of a consideration on gear pieces, but the increase to SotF should at least allow more uniformity in feral druid tanking and dps gear. The holy grail being to have one set capable of doing both.

One thing left out is any improvement to claw. I do not think it is good design to have any ability become redundant. Reduced importance yes, this happens in most classes when you spec down a tree, making abilities you have in other spell schools less important, but still useable, Afterall the entire idea is to add diversity through more abilities to master. At the moment only levelling druids use claw, dps feral abilities. A large chunk I might add, of the feral arsenal being completely useless to balance and resto druids atm, I look forward to blizzard introducing a way that balance spell casting can benefit from occasionally and for short periods meleeing using feral forms, so those abilities aren't completely useless but see occasional use and also look forward for the feral tree once more providing just as good an alternative means of dps for Resto druids as the balance tree is, something the change to +healing on gear put the final nail in the resto/feral synergy coffin. No review has yet addressed that.

So that leaves Claw of any use only to feral druids, who ditch it once mangle comes. A talent that makes claw have a use again would be nice. Maybe a mangle critical hit gives your next claw a 40 energy reduction and 1.5 sec global cooldown reduction, would be nice. An alternative could also be, say Mangle crit on bleeding targets will cause your next claw to do twice as much damage at half the energy cost.

Or, we could go for effect, Claw could have 100% chance to do something cool every 10secs. Weaving it back into the ability cycle and back onto the action bar

For all intents and purposes they could have renamed Mangle (Cat) to Improved Claw. There'd be no functional difference (except that old idol which helped claw and not mangle and savage fury affecting only mangle). In that regard "Claw" already got its buff in that it was renamed to Mangle (Cat) after you took that talent. Frankly if rake starts becoming useful I think we'll have enough abilities to juggle in our cycles.

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For all intents and purposes they could have renamed Mangle (Cat) to Improved Claw. There'd be no functional difference (except that old idol which helped claw and not mangle and savage fury affecting only mangle). In that regard "Claw" already got its buff in that it was renamed to Mangle (Cat) after you took that talent. Frankly if rake starts becoming useful I think we'll have enough abilities to juggle in our cycles.

I completely agree. With the addition of more cat abilities to add to our bar (lock jaw, berzerk, and tiger's fury) our cat bar will already be overwhelmed with stuff to do after macroing out the stealth-only ravage and pounce. We will now have 4 finishers, shred, mangle, FFF, prowl, rake, tiger's fury, and berzerk on one action bar which will already add to the clutter of what we have now. Personally i would love to have a druid catform stealth action bar and possibly some druid version of sap for 5 mans that will go along with the trend of trying to make catform a respectable damage role.

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Mangle is so much better than either Swipe or Lacerate for threat, why would you keep to that cycle if you can use it sooner?

Reduced Mangle cd seems a win for me - easier to tab/aggro to keep threat on multiple targets and higher threat overall on a single target. The only real downside is that those talent points don't bring any benefit to Catform.

It reduces the energy of Mangle for cat, which is pretty good. The 2t6 bonus is 5 energy reduced, talent is 2 energy per point... so it's actually 1 better.

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It reduces the energy of Mangle for cat, which is pretty good. The 2t6 bonus is 5 energy reduced, talent is 2 energy per point... so it's actually 1 better.

Its going to make farming to 2T6 insanely fast too. I assume the 2T6 bonus will be changed pre-expansion.

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Personally i would love to have a druid catform stealth action bar

Isn't there already ? o.O

Not entirely sure, as I use Bartender3, which does it automatically.

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A stealth action bar is not necessary. We only have 2 abilities different in stealth which are easily macrod. I just have my shred key do ravage if stealthed and rake do pounce.

Edit: If Imp Mangle and 2t6 do end up stacking, it might actually make a mangle-spam cycle equal or better damage than a standard cycle. Although, with the new talents for Shred it's doubtful.

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If the extra damage numbers are correct, it is awful news to feral druid viability in WotLK.

The main issue feral was facing in TBC was that its scaling was broken, we were excellent at low gear levels leading to nerfs because numbers correctly balanced for T6 were too good for T4 / Kara. This broken scaling goes back to a cat doing 60% of its damage from specials, all of which have huge static components. Since our specials need to carry roughly twice as big a share of our overall output compared to rogues, the weight given to static components in determining their output have to be smaller than for rogues to have enough scaling reserves to keep up with them in output (not advocating equality here, just that the ratio of rogue to druid output remains relatively constant).

And apart from Predatory Strikes getting long overdue improved scaling, there is nothing in the talents that improves the scaling of our specials. As things stand, we are set for a repeat of BC in WotLK, overpowered in blues, underpowered in top end epics, simply because the static components of our specials are too large. 500+ extra to Maul, when a 3.5K attack power bear would hit for around 700 damage on normal attacks is huge, and very difficult to fit into scaling ranges that will probably see a 100% power increase going from blues to end game epics.

It would be so much better to half the static modifiers, and give the lost damage back as extra scaling to give us more of a chance to keep up with other classes.

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