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Norfair

Restoration WotLK Talent Preview / Discussion

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Does anyone know the cast time for Revive? OOC rez by a stealth class seems very strong for Arena (and some BG situations too).

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It's 10 seconds, like the other rezzes. One of the changes published from the first Alpha build was that Druid NS went from making any nature spell instant to any nature spell under 10s.

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Does anyone know the cast time for Revive? OOC rez by a stealth class seems very strong for Arena (and some BG situations too).

As far as revive, seems like much fun[read: exploitation] might be had by having nekkid shealth rez runs through instances. Yet mobs will probably be strategically placed with dectect invis.

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An OOC resurrection spell for Druids is long overdue, but I wonder what happened to something that was characterized as one Blizzard's arguments against it in the past; the fact that a druid could potentially stealth through trash and resurrect the rest of a raid/party.

I wonder if they have plans to introduce more stealth-detecting mobs, more narrow hallways, or other similiar features in dungeons.

My initial reaction is to think that it's just a change in design philosophy. Given the emphasis on shorter dungeons (seen all through TBC) softening of trash (making raid trash much more CCable in an early TBC patch) and less trash in general (using Sunwell Plataeu and Magister's Terrace as examples) does the ability to skip a trash pack or two (with the added clause that you have to end up clearing it or rez past it again if you end up needing a full runback) make up for the time and headache being able to perform such an action adds?

I look at how things like Sap and Entangling Roots are being made more universally usable, and the addition of a CC (even on a cooldown) to Shamans, and I see a definite leaning towards making trash a very small factor in instance design.

It just seems like one of those things that people worry about because of hard to quantify fears, but ends up being a minor issue in the long run.

Personally, I'm just sad that this means I'll have to take a more active role in wipe recovery. :(

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Personally, I think the biggest change there is Gift of the Earthmother's effect on Rejuvenation and Lifebloom. Spell Haste will, again, cease to be a useful stat for Druids, but I'm not complaining. With 1 second Lifeblooms we can potentially keep 6 people fully stacked, mana permitting.

Replenish just doesn't strike me as that amazing. Rejuvenation will only tick if the person is at less than maximum health. That's great for Warlocks, Ret Paladins and Tanks, but no one else is consistently below maximum health enough to really benefit. On most fights where they will be, Flourish will probably be cast over Rejuvenation.

Edit: Bah, beat to the punch on my first paragraph.

Gift of the Earthmother actually seems over-powered to me. I think it would be better as .05/.1/.15/.2/.25. There are two reasons

1: Spell haste would remain useful to us. This is important, because having stats that don't help your character cause poor scaling issues (which is one reason why druids and paladins fall behind priests and shamans in TBC raid healing).

2: We are over-reliant on lifebloom for healing now. The proposed .5s GCD reduction would ensure it would stay that way. .25s would keep a better balance with our other healing spells.

Several people have argued that spell haste is already pretty worthless for druids. I disagree. Having spell haste does two very nice things for you

1: You have a lot more wiggle-room in cycling four spells. In reality, most of us switch to three spells when we are running around or things get complicated. It is one thing to rotate between your lifebloom_Tank1 lifebloom_Tank2 lifebloom_Tank3 etc macros and quite another to do something like lifebloom_Tank1 lifebloom T...oh crap! wait rejuv swiftmend...grrr...which lifebloom I on again? lifebloom Tank1...decurse!!!!....etc etc. Without some serious spell haste, I doubt most druids are casting four spells and getting back around to restoring the lifebloom on the MT. There just isn't enough time to cover up for your ~.25s reaction times, shifting fingers, and the time it takes to switch targets.

2: You are faster. Get 150 haste, and your GCD is down to 1.35s or so. That rejuv+swiftmend now goes off .3 seconds sooner, assuming you were in the midst of the previous spell's gcd when you decided to use this combo. Needless to say, this saves lives and wipes.

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1: Spell haste would remain useful to us. This is important, because having stats that don't help your character cause poor scaling issues (which is one reason why druids and paladins fall behind priests and shamans in TBC raid healing).

If by raid healing you mean healing more than one target, its the lack of having a heal that affects more than one target. If you mean overall healing output, i can show you some WWS where this is not true throughout whole SWP. Druids and priests dominate healing, shamans in chain heal friendly fights and paladins are the odd man out.

Haste is an awesome stat right now and lets you use 5 gcd's while keeping up lifeblooms or work in regrowths etc. However 80% of my healing is already LB and rejuv, if those dont benefit of haste anymore, i doubt i would use haste unless its 3-4 times as cheap as equivalent +healing (or spellpower). Flourish might change this to 60%, but unless nourish is castable in ToL i dont see a big switch of hot healing for trees.

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1: Spell haste would remain useful to us. This is important, because having stats that don't help your character cause poor scaling issues (which is one reason why druids and paladins fall behind priests and shamans in TBC raid healing).

I don't agree with this point. There's a threshold at which point this does become a problem (see Shadow Priests), but with Int, Spirit, +Healing and Mp5 all being important stats, we aren't particularly hurt for being able to ignore Spell Haste.

2: We are over-reliant on lifebloom for healing now. The proposed .5s GCD reduction would ensure it would stay that way. .25s would keep a better balance with our other healing spells.

1. All healers have a spell that is simply better than the others. Having healed as a Shaman before my Druid I know that 90% of the time I was spamming various ranks of Healing Wave on the tank, or Chain Heal when I was assigned raid healing. Similar statements can be made about Priests and Paladins.

2. I don't imagine for a moment that it would be easy to maintain 6 Lifebloom stacks. Having to keep track of that many targets, along with the potentially enormous mana cost, would make it prohibitive. While the talent gives us the option of spamming Lifebloom and Rejuvenation absolutely everywhere, I think it's more meant to just give Resto Druids some breathing space.

Several people have argued that spell haste is already pretty worthless for druids. I disagree. Having spell haste does two very nice things for you

1: You have a lot more wiggle-room in cycling four spells. In reality, most of us switch to three spells when we are running around or things get complicated. It is one thing to rotate between your lifebloom_Tank1 lifebloom_Tank2 lifebloom_Tank3 etc macros and quite another to do something like lifebloom_Tank1 lifebloom T...oh crap! wait rejuv swiftmend...grrr...which lifebloom I on again? lifebloom Tank1...decurse!!!!....etc etc. Without some serious spell haste, I doubt most druids are casting four spells and getting back around to restoring the lifebloom on the MT. There just isn't enough time to cover up for your ~.25s reaction times, shifting fingers, and the time it takes to switch targets.

2: You are faster. Get 150 haste, and your GCD is down to 1.35s or so. That rejuv+swiftmend now goes off .3 seconds sooner, assuming you were in the midst of the previous spell's gcd when you decided to use this combo. Needless to say, this saves lives and wipes.

Right, so why are you complaining that you're getting all of that without having to gear for it? 90% of the usefulness of Spell Haste is from how it allows us to do more within a 7 second cycle, which we will soon get in talent form.

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2. I don't imagine for a moment that it would be easy to maintain 6 Lifebloom stacks. Having to keep track of that many targets, along with the potentially enormous mana cost, would make it prohibitive. While the talent gives us the option of spamming Lifebloom and Rejuvenation absolutely everywhere, I think it's more meant to just give Resto Druids some breathing space.

Using present numbers, Lifebloom is the most mana to cast time efficient heal of the standard druid heals. Doing 6 Lifeblooms would cost less than 3 lifeblooms and a regrowth cost now, if only marginally, and only slightly more than 3 lifeblooms and a rejuvenation. To say that it would be enormously costly or prohibitive would be incorrect unless lifebloom's cost increases by a much larger percent than regrowth/rejuv, not factoring in any potential nourish use.

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I'm expecting Gift of the Earthmother to be reduced to 3 ranks, so you get to take off .3 on your global cooldown but no more unless you add spell haste. We'll see though. I wouldn't be excited to have to roll 5+ lifeblooms.

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An OOC resurrection spell for Druids is long overdue, but I wonder what happened to something that was characterized as one Blizzard's arguments against it in the past; the fact that a druid could potentially stealth through trash and resurrect the rest of a raid/party.

I wonder if they have plans to introduce more stealth-detecting mobs, more narrow hallways, or other similiar features in dungeons.

Well you could always do that from the first level you got your rez spell. Assuming it's up you could just stealth past everything and rez a rezer... I mean granted it burnt your 30 min (now 20) cooldown, but it was possible. This just takes away the cooldown part.

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I think the point of Gift of the Earthmother is twofold:

1) More free time to use other spells

2) Use mana faster when you're using every GCD

There's not really any reason you'd ever roll 5 Lifeblooms unless you're trying to heal through Encapsulate or something. I envision this conversation leading to the Gift talent:

Designer A: ok, what cool new healing spells can we give Druids

Designer B: Nourish, Flourish

Designer A: Cool, let's do those

Designer C: Druids already spend 50-75% of their GCDs casting Lifebloom, they may not use these

Designer A: Good point let's nerf Lifebloom

Designer B: Probably not a good idea, let's just give them more time so they can use the new stuff

Designer A: Ok, let's increase the duration of Lifebloom so they can refresh less often

Designer C: Do we really want to make Druids more mana efficient? If we make them cast faster it'll do the same thing

Designer B: True, let's make that a talent to encourage people to go deep Resto instead of getting Dreamstate

Designer A: Sounds good, lunchtime!

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Here's a question with the one change for the aura everyone in the raid will receive 5% more healing. Any ideas/thoughts as to if the aura should stack or not. If it doesn't stack then would there be any reason to bring more then one tree druid to a raid, but then if it does stack then I could see other healing classes getting left out to increase healing even more by having multiple trees.

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Here's a question with the one change for the aura everyone in the raid will receive 5% more healing. Any ideas/thoughts as to if the aura should stack or not. If it doesn't stack then would there be any reason to bring more then one tree druid to a raid, but then if it does stack then I could see other healing classes getting left out to increase healing even more by having multiple trees.

If it doesn't stack, then the merits of bringing multiple tree druids to a raid depends on the other capabilities that they bring to the table compared to other classes. As an example, holy priests presently do not stack at all in terms of buffs, but that doesn't automatically disqualify having several of them in a raid.

If it does stack, it's still a very similar situation. What other abilities do resto druids bring. Do those abilities combined with the stacking bonus outweigh what other classes bring?

It's the same question that has to be dealt with now with things like blessings, totems, and synergy in general.

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If it doesn't stack then would there be any reason to bring more then one tree druid to a raid

Do you currently justify the second Tree in your raids because of a second group aura?

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Do you currently justify the second Tree in your raids because of a second group aura?

In some fights like ones that have multiple MT's the second aura is worth it due to being able to get optimal tank groups with pally shaman lock druid and tank.

Granted flame tank healing for illidan is pretty easy I (I'm the healing lead) can put one main healer on each of the flame tanks and both druids keep rolling LBs up on both tanks, leaving all the other healers to raid heal.

Though our second resto mainly came along from a time where we were short on healers and he filled the roll well. We weren't looking for another tree in particular just some more healing (we were just starting Bloodboil at the time), he just was at the right place at the right time and joined us (I still find it odd seeing a second tree I was pretty much the only tree from Kara halfway through BT).

It was mainly a thought exercise if the aura will stack or not. Also was hoping that someone would have heard or maybe know. I doubt it will effect our group that much either way.

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* Flourish: Heals friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 672 over 7 sec. The amount healed is applied quickly at first, and slows down as the Flourish reaches its full duration. Costs 450 mana.

Assuming the same thing as lifebloom, where you can keep 4 of these up, can't you potentially have 4 flourishes up and running at the same time on different targets, each healing the whole raid? So once all 4 are up, you are healing the raid for ~1200 a sec?

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* Flourish: Heals friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 672 over 7 sec. The amount healed is applied quickly at first, and slows down as the Flourish reaches its full duration. Costs 450 mana.

Assuming the same thing as lifebloom, where you can keep 4 of these up, can't you potentially have 4 flourishes up and running at the same time on different targets, each healing the whole raid? So once all 4 are up, you are healing the raid for ~1200 a sec?

I guess it will be limited to 5 people max or something like that...

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* Flourish: Heals friendly party or raid members within 15 yards of the target for 672 over 7 sec. The amount healed is applied quickly at first, and slows down as the Flourish reaches its full duration. Costs 450 mana.

Assuming the same thing as lifebloom, where you can keep 4 of these up, can't you potentially have 4 flourishes up and running at the same time on different targets, each healing the whole raid? So once all 4 are up, you are healing the raid for ~1200 a sec?

672 over 7 seconds with "slower" healing towards the end sounds more like a .. 0->1sec tick->2sec tick->4sec tick to me, which kinda fills the 7 seconds. Which means that towards the end you're only getting ~300 HPS.

Does anyone else think it's likely that Bark's Blessing was removed due to being able to keep Bark's Blessing on the whole raid if you cast 5 flourishes with some spell haste due to GCD? Blizzard might have thought "Hey, they might do this anyway so let's just remove Bark's Blessing and give a raid-wide aura".

It might make sense to bring two restoration druids, one in ToL form for raid healing and the aura, and a caster-form restoration druid for full HoT-stacks Nourish Tank healing. With the tree buff, the tree aura would be more mana efficient, whereas the caster-form druid wouldn't need as much mana since he/she's focusing on just the tanks.

Just a speculation ;)

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672 over 7 seconds with "slower" healing towards the end sounds more like a .. 0->1sec tick->2sec tick->4sec tick to me, which kinda fills the 7 seconds. Which means that towards the end you're only getting ~300 HPS.

Does anyone else think it's likely that Bark's Blessing was removed due to being able to keep Bark's Blessing on the whole raid if you cast 5 flourishes with some spell haste due to GCD? Blizzard might have thought "Hey, they might do this anyway so let's just remove Bark's Blessing and give a raid-wide aura".

It might make sense to bring two restoration druids, one in ToL form for raid healing and the aura, and a caster-form restoration druid for full HoT-stacks Nourish Tank healing. With the tree buff, the tree aura would be more mana efficient, whereas the caster-form druid wouldn't need as much mana since he/she's focusing on just the tanks.

Just a speculation ;)

I think someone said CoH and Flourish have a 6 sec cooldown on the current alpha, which would mean you can't keep it up on the entire raid (although it does fit nicely in a typical Lifebloom cycle).

Also, if I don't read it wrong, Bark's Blessing is the same as ToL aura, only Bark's Blessing is something that is only applied to people who got healed by you, while ToL is applied to everyone within 40y range. So that way ToL aura already "provides Bark's Blessing" to the entire raid (granted they are all in healing range).

By the way, I read the tooltip as Flourish as something like: heals 200 first second, 150 second second, 100 third second, etc. Soon we'll find out what it actually means. ;)

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I think someone said CoH and Flourish have a 6 sec cooldown on the current alpha, which would mean you can't keep it up on the entire raid (although it does fit nicely in a typical Lifebloom cycle).

Also, if I don't read it wrong, Bark's Blessing is the same as ToL aura, only Bark's Blessing is something that is only applied to people who got healed by you, while ToL is applied to everyone within 40y range. So that way ToL aura already "provides Bark's Blessing" to the entire raid (granted they are all in healing range).

By the way, I read the tooltip as Flourish as something like: heals 200 first second, 150 second second, 100 third second, etc. Soon we'll find out what it actually means. ;)

I was speculating what happened before Flourish got the cooldown and ToL aura was applied to the whole raid.

Since Flourish didn't have a reported cooldown before, and you are technically healing everyone affected by Flourish, Flourish would have applied Bark's Blessing to 5 people per cast. A 5 Flourish cycle would have been a "Raid-Wide ToL aura + HoT" with some +haste. Again, this is all before the cooldown change, and when bark's blessing was present before ToL became a raid-wide aura. My speculation was that Blizzard took this idea and just gave us a ToL aura that affects the whole raid.

I also wonder if Flourish is going to become Swiftmend-able... the anticipation is killing me.

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As far as revive, seems like much fun[read: exploitation] might be had by having nekkid shealth rez runs through instances. Yet mobs will probably be strategically placed with dectect invis.

So the incessant whining about "I want a REAL rez" may screw up stealth runs. (The point of stealth runs being that you can bypass a lot of content, but you're operating on the edge, since more than a very occasional death will mean a (slow) stealth back to the party. Tradeoffs. Which most players seem unwilling to do.)

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Will flourish and CoH work like chain heal currently does and target the players with the lowest health or will they target the people closest to you? With it being able to hit anyone in the raid how exactly will it decide who is going to be healed outside of the person you are actually targeting to heal?

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The dev panel talking about PoH, and I believe CoH, said that it would target the lowest-health people in its area of effect. I think it's safe to assume at this point that all target-capped AoE heals will be smart-targeting.

As far as Flourishing the entire raid successively... even aside from the cooldown, there's the problem that the heal may or may not target the same people a few times. While the healing from Flourish itself will make people less ideal targets for Flourish you may still have one group more than an initial tick's worth of flourish behind another group in health, and it's pretty much up in the air how it may interact with full-health targets. Even five druids would have a tough job keeping the whole raid ToLed with flourish.

Regarding stealth runs: Expect more stealth-detecting mobs placed in unavoidable chokepoints.

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PoH will target nearest people. CoH to lowest Hp people. So they have two different mechanic to area heals.

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As someone who suggested a Flourish kind of heal in the class feedback thread, I was absolutely thrilled to see it implemented. It was very heartening to see blizzard actually read the class feedback thread and implement an idea suggested by myself and numerous others.

I would be flaty amazed if blizzard did not cap the % coefficient for flourish. With three trees in the raid (extreme but it gets the point across) Assuming it has a coefficient of 0.49 (0.43 from 1.5s cast, 10% from gift of nature, 4% from new talent) PLUS another 108% from 3x rejuv, lifebloom and regrowth leaves us with an absolute monster of a healing spell getting a coefficient of 1.01, almost as much as greater heal gets. If lifeblooms stack seperately, the coefficient jumps to 1.33 making it the largest HPS and HPM spell in the game.

Also, I might be alone on this one, but I felt very underwhelmed with Replenish. The only time my rejuv ever spot heals is when I swiftmend it, or when someone is taking peroidic, predictable, non life threatening damage (as in, damage that won't kill someone with three seconds of no healing); low level stacks of arcane buffet, flame burst, meteor slash, blood boil, ect. In each situation, CoH/chain heal could jump and over ride it.

At best it seems like a situationally usefull talent.

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