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Cathela

WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion

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Datamined Holy Tree

Some really interesting stuff with trying to get holy pallys to use Judgment. I suppose maybe pallys might be the "DPS" healers in a roundabout way. Nothing to fix our massive dependence on outside buffs for regen though, which is a little disappointing.

E: Little taste of the ret talents (being mined as we speak):

Increases your spell power by an amount equal to $s1% of your attack power and your critical healing spells heal the target for $s2% of the healed amount over 12 seconds.

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Just as an example of the usefulness of the new Hand of Sacrifice spell, I'll try to list the TBC fights where it would make a rather large difference for raiders progressing through a zone:

SSC:

-Hydross pre-transitions

-Leotheras' Warlock tank

-AoErs on Morogrim

-Shaman tank on Karatress

TK:

-Al'ar's Melt Armor on P2, preventing burst dmg on the tank in case of resisted taunts

-Kael'thas' Pyroblast would be made trivial to survive

Hyjal:

-Kaz'rogal during a stun (doubles up as free mana)

-Azgalor before a silence

-Archimonde before a fear

BT:

-Naj'entus on low HP players (very dangerous, probably only Divine Shield is active)

-RoS good for all 1 and 3, but especially good for phase 1 on Enrages

-Bloodboil on soft Fel Rage targets (dangerous, raid has to be aware)

-Mother 10%

-Illidan P2 and P5 enrages, demon form for the Warlock tank

Sunwell:

-Kalecgos/Sathrovarr 10% Enrage (dangerous)

-Brutallus Stomps, just gotta make sure to load up on HoTs

-Felmyst Corrosion

-M'uru Sentinel tank when overlapping Spawns' AoE

And obviously, the new Hand of Sacrifice can be used on any difficult pull. The PvP and instancing utilities are also endless. But this goes to show the overall utility of the spell and it'd be a safe bet to say that WotLK raid encounters will have plenty of mechanics where casting Hand of Sacrifice is beneficial.

Oh ya, suggested nomenclature for the new spells: HoSac, HoSalv, HoP and HoF.

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As many have mentioned, it seems like Blizzard is changing us into a buff bot with the new "Hand" system. Is anyone else pretty disappointed by this? I've been relatively content with my role as tank healer this expansion. Even though I can't put up the big numbers that AoE healers can, I've still felt like an important member of the healing squad. I think I'd shoot myself if I had to spend raids juggling various Hands to targets with a smaller focus on healing. Of course, maybe I'm just reading too much into it (and being overly bitter) since the Blessing/Hand changes were listed first.

I guess it's a good thing I have level seventy of each healer.

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Supposed Datamined Ret Tree

Holy

Shit

Still waiting on confirmation but damn that is some sweet group utility!

EDIT: This particular tree didn't update Holy/Prot, let me find a better one.

EDIT 2: The 51-pointer also has a confirmed 10 second cooldown. I'm not gonna lie, Ret is looking incredibly powerful.

EDIT 3: I should make a new post... Anyway, got a good talent tree link now.

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Hand of Sacrifice is also a gift for any offtanking/threat-switching situation like Gurtogg or Fel Reaver, since the damage taken translates into mana through SA.

EDIT: Whoah, Ret talents.

Do prot! Do prot!

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It's amazing how much utility Blizzard seems to be putting deep in the Retribution tree with the 2 different ways to generate some healing.

Holy gets it's promised HoT/AOE/Chain Heal but with a little more interaction required that would reward making a good choice.

I for one can't wait for datamined Protection talents... *shiver*

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While Divine Shield is active $53523s1% of all damage taken by party or raid members within $53523a1 yards is redirected to the Paladin.

Is the only one I've heard about so far, and it's a bit... hmm....

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I apologize if this has been brought up already but is anyone else thinking Seal of Corruption is just a poorly named eventual replacement for Seal of Blood? It could be identical to SoV which would be consistent with the Corruption = DoT and it *could* be appropriate from a lore standpoint. Am I thinking too far ahead here or is this a chilling vision of things to come?

EDIT: The impression I'm getting from the Blizz forums is that Horde is getting "Seal of Corruption" and the Alliance is getting "Seal of the Martyr" which will function identically to Vengeance/Blood.

Yeah that seems much more likely.

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No telling if this is real, but someone has a full tree mock-up posted.

EDIT: The impression I'm getting from the Blizz forums is that Horde is getting "Seal of Corruption" and the Alliance is getting "Seal of the Martyr" which will function identically to Vengeance/Blood.

Prot talents:

I'm wondering if the damage "redirected" by Divine Guardian damage the paladin even under the bubble, or is it simply absorbed by the bubble?

Touched by the Light: Nice. I'm wondering if that's our only "innate" source of spelldamage or if the class as a whole is getting some kind of baseline stat->spelldamage conversion?

Guarded by the Light: Effectively half-price AoE tanking. Seems kind of hard to justify the points for.

Shield of the Templar: Begs the question "What exactly is Shield of Righteousness?"

Judgements of Justice: Sup, Tclap.

Hammer of the Righteous: No mana cost(?), 6 second cooldown. Potentially this could mean we'll be changing our entire tanking-weapon outlook from "spelldamage weapon" to "slow melee weapon".

Interesting stuff, but we'll have to see the big picture to really understand it all.

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I apologize if this has been brought up already but is anyone else thinking Seal of Corruption is just a poorly named eventual replacement for Seal of Blood? It could be identical to SoV which would be consistent with the Corruption = DoT and it *could* be appropriate from a lore standpoint. Am I thinking too far ahead here or is this a chilling vision of things to come?

Current rumors abound on the pally forum have the interesting idea that SoCor is the same as SoV except for horde toons. They point to something called Seal of the Martyr being the same as SoB for alliance (!!!!). This would also make the "Improved Seals" talent make more sense, it increases the damage dealt by the tanking/holy dps seals.

EDIT: Now we need to find out what "Shield of Righteousness" is.

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No telling if this is real, but someone has a full tree mock-up posted.

EDIT: The impression I'm getting from the Blizz forums is that Horde is getting "Seal of Corruption" and the Alliance is getting "Seal of the Martyr" which will function identically to Vengeance/Blood.

While I'm extremely pleased with the Prot talents (Judgement of Thunderclap, STA to Spell Power conversion), the mention of a Shield of Righteousness ability is suspect. Any word on this?

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I lied. You're gonna love this:

Shield of Righteousness [level 75]

6 sec cooldown

Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.

Armor piercing Shield Slam. Prot is gonna have some very sexy single target TPS.

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Is the only one I've heard about so far, and it's a bit... hmm....

Holy and Ret Paladins can pick this up in their builds. It appears to be low enough in the tree.

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The main thing I don't get: why is the 51 pointer based on weapon damage? Unless there's a very large threat modifier, since all of our other abilities on based on SP, won't we be using a caster weapon? Even if the modifier makes it worth it, do we really want to have 1 weapon for 1-3 targets and another for 4+?

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I lied. You're gonna love this:

Shield of Righteousness [level 75]

6 sec cooldown

Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.

Armor piercing Shield Slam. Prot is gonna have some very sexy single target TPS.

Hot diggety damn! I'm sold on Paladins - talk about saving the best for last.

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For me the real new "killer talent" is Divine Guardian. I mean a raidwide 30% dmg reduction over 12 seconds is crazy to say the least (also in arenas).

I don't really understand the Sheath of Light description though "[...]and your critical healing spells also heal the target for 20% of the amount healed" is that a typo of some sort ?

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Holy and Ret Paladins can pick this up in their builds. It appears to be low enough in the tree.

I could see somthing like this becoming the new raiding holy norm spec. There are a few ways you could twist the talents around though. PvE ret is going to be a strict 0/8/63 though, the new talents are just far too good to pass up.

Hot diggety damn! I'm sold on Paladins - talk about saving the best for last.

I'm incredibly pleased with Blizzard. There are still some deficiencies they haven't adressed (*coughmanaregencough*) but all in all these talents are great.

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I lied. You're gonna love this:

Shield of Righteousness [level 75]

6 sec cooldown

Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.

Armor piercing Shield Slam. Prot is gonna have some very sexy single target TPS.

Man, that's just too much. I'm not even sure I believe that one just yet.

I think it's kinda crazy that with all this stuff, we still don't get anything confirmed as a spell interrupt. Hopefully one of these new talents will turn out to offer one.

Also- holy fucking tree bloat, Batman! Please, roll Imp HS into the base talent, and condense a few more of the 5-point talents, damn. I can barely get into the Ret tree for deflection as it stands.

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Also- holy fucking tree bloat, Batman! Please, roll Imp HS into the base talent, and condense a few more of the 5-point talents, damn. I can barely get into the Ret tree for deflection as it stands.

I think that's intended. Once you have all the critical talents for pve ret, you have a grand total of two points to spare.

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I think it is about time to cut down some talents and move a few.

Most other classes got their tier 1 talents cut down to 2-3 talent points and moved around.

Benediction needs to be 3, Imp BoM needs to be 3, toss E4E or Imp Ret aura there for 2 points.

Divine Str should be 3 and move something to tier 1 for 2 points (Stoic?)

Imp Seals in Holy could be cut down to 2, move the improved healing to tier 1 for 3 points.

Then also cut down on some of other bloated abilities.

Reckoning (seriously).

Fanaticism

Illumination

etc

We need some love in this department.

Also, 51 ret looks neat...but I haven't seen anything explaining why we are having to rely on +dmg when we are focused on +str/crit only gear now.

They are moving backwards with some things, moreover, anyone figured out of Alliance get Blood yet (I assume yes since there is a talent for Vengeance).

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Am I missing something or there's nothing that would alleviate ret mana issues. Was hoping for some stat conversion or some regen tool, considering there won't be any int on gear.

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Also, 51 ret looks neat...but I haven't seen anything explaining why we are having to rely on +dmg when we are focused on +str/crit only gear now.

Sheath of Light

3 point

5th tier Retribution

Increases your spell power by 10/20/30% of your total attack power and your critical healing spells also heal the target for 20/40/60% of the heal over x seconds.

That alone has some incredible synergy with Divine Storm, and with the SP Judgements, Consecration, Exorcism, Holy Wrath and even Hammer of Wrath are going to be staples of our DPS rotations. Hell even a "weak" talent like Art of War (15% chance to double Judgement damage after a CS) becomes a monstrous DPS increase.

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I lied. You're gonna love this:

Shield of Righteousness [level 75]

6 sec cooldown

Slam the target with your shield, causing Holy damage equal to 200% of your block value. This spell causes a high amount of threat.

Armor piercing Shield Slam. Prot is gonna have some very sexy single target TPS.

Hells yeah!

Is that really zero mana cost? Between that and the hammer, it looks like we'll have a shitload of mana-free threat.

The main thing I don't get: why is the 51 pointer based on weapon damage? Unless there's a very large threat modifier, since all of our other abilities on based on SP, won't we be using a caster weapon? Even if the modifier makes it worth it, do we really want to have 1 weapon for 1-3 targets and another for 4+?

Single-target looks like it's going to be weapon damage and block value all the way. I think the intent is that the spelldamage from Touched by the Light will be enough to power your other abilities (Cons, HS, SoR/JoR, etc) but the overall balance is supposed to favor a "real" weapon.

I don't really understand the Sheath of Light description though "[...]and your critical healing spells also heal the target for 20% of the amount healed" is that a typo of some sort ?

My best guess is that it's supposed to end with "over 12 seconds" or something like that -- a built-in HoT from crit heals.

EDIT: Tclap. Damn, they're giving us Tclap built into judgements. Too damn sweet.

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Sheath of Light

3 point

5th tier Retribution

Increases your spell power by 10/20/30% of your total attack power and your critical healing spells also heal the target for 20/40/60% of the heal over x seconds.

That alone has some incredible synergy with Divine Storm, and with the SP Judgements, Consecration, Exorcism, Holy Wrath and even Hammer of Wrath are going to be staples of our DPS rotations.

I know, people seem to enjoy +SP.

The only benefit I see to it is really giving judgements a boost.

Hammer of Wrath still has a cast time I do believe.

One thing I'd like to know, 3% crit on Judgements, stacking? 12% crit total with 4 paladins?

Moreover, I think something that needs to be addressed is changing Sanctity Aura 2% damage and the 3% haste bonus to affect all our auras; at least that way we can change and use something different if need be (sucks for prot paladins loss of 10% holy damage, but gaining Ret + Devo might even it out a bit).

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Holy Christ on a pogo stick. Is Sheath of Light honestly for-real? Am I the only one who glanced over the new trees and instantly thought hardcore shock jock (43/0/28-ish or so) ruthlessly exploiting all the cross-tree crit synergy for Holy Shock to generate instant Holy Lights (which will also likely crit, get 60% refunded, and then proc a 60% HoT along the lines of Ignite). Not to mention the extra 200-300 spell damage from AP conversion and three points in Vengeance to spice things up on the offensive side.

You might well be correct, Toaster, it looks at first blush as if Blizzard wants all paladins out of the back and into the front lines as a true DPS/Healer or Healer/Tank hybrid.

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