Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Whitetooth

Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)

596 posts in this topic

People have tested spell hit, it is 9%. That means there is no more hidden 1% resist chance.

Can you link to where the test has been done?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Here are the calculations for int.

Int - 515 - 6.90% crit added - 74.6377 int for 1% crit (if its a direct conversion)

Hope these values help some in determining the new formula that was pushed last patch.

That isn't correct. At 70, a Warlock needs around 82 int per 1% crit, and it will only go up with level.

It isn't a direct conversion, since base int numbers are ignored (your int without any gear on).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can you link to where the test has been done?

I can't link to the BB.

The test was done by Malan, where he casted Lighting Bolts on a +3 mob for an while with 0 resists (he had 9% spell hit)

Logically, 9% is the caster cap because they want Healers and DPS to use similar gear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I can't link to the BB.

The test was done by Malan, where he casted Lighting Bolts on a +3 mob for an while with 0 resists (he had 9% spell hit)

Logically, 9% is the caster cap because they want Healers and DPS to use similar gear.

But are we seeing evidence that spell hit is phasing out as a stat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
0_o

I don't know what's enough for you... If anything, they were far TOO steep.

The problem is in the extreme inflation in gear level, not the conversions.

And the problem is that they seem to follow an even more extreme road for WotLK.

I don't think you're looking at this objectively. You seem to be looking at it through the lens of somebody who's upset to be losing some amount of power while gaining ten levels. A reasonable concern, but that's just how ratings work. You need to be looking at it in terms of whether it's maintaining the consistency of the overall system given some average gear level.

The falloff was *not* appropriate with the increase in item level from 60 to 70. A max-level blue item was ilvl 60 (maybe 65) in pre-TBC, and ilvl 115 in TBC. That's at least a 75% increase in power, or as much as 90% given how many high-tier dungeon blues were even worse than ilvl 60. Meanwhile, the conversion rate only increased by 57%. Per point of item budget given to a rating stat, you're getting a better deal in TBC than in pre-TBC. An item with, say, 2% crit at level 60 had 28 crit rating. That same item in TBC has approximately 52 crit rating, and it's giving a level 70 player 2.4% crit.

Now, we don't know exactly what ilvl a max-level blue in WotLK is going to be. I'm going to try to extrapolate a little bit: A WotLK level 70 blue is ilvl 130. A random level 75 blue is around ilvl 171. Taking the difference and adding it to ilvl 171 gives us ilvl 212. That's probably pretty close to what a level 80 blue will be; it's 84% higher than a max-level TBC blue, and about 250% higher than a level 60 blue.

Now, suppose rating conversions had increased by only 57% again, so that it takes 22.1*1.57 = 34.7 crit rating per 1% crit. That level 60 item referenced earlier, with 28 crit rating, now has 98 crit rating; it's giving us 2.8% critical strike chance at 80, quite a bit higher than the 2% crit it was giving us. This trend doesn't work out.

Basing it on the conversion values we're seeing in the OP, that item with 98 crit rating is giving us 2.1% critical strike rating, basically putting in line with what we'd expect against level 60 items.

So if they feel that the TBC conversion drop-off wasn't appropriately steep, then they have to overcorrect somewhat now if they're not happy with it. Not so good for players with exceptional level 70 gear, I suppose, but really not the worst thing in the world.

EDIT: Also, they're not really following a more pronounced inflation level in Wrath, it appears to be roughly the same deal. And ironically, ratings were introduced precisely to prevent the loot system from exploding from gear inflation, so your point suffers there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
That isn't correct. At 70, a Warlock needs around 82 int per 1% crit, and it will only go up with level.

It isn't a direct conversion, since base int numbers are ignored (your int without any gear on).

Ok yeah it seemed a bit odd, ill do it by difference instead. I every point of int i dropped it seemed to cause the crit from int by .01% so at 73 it would seem that its 100 int to 1% crit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ok yeah it seemed a bit odd, ill do it by difference instead. I every point of int i dropped it seemed to cause the crit from int by .01% so at 73 it would seem that its 100 int to 1% crit.

You're getting closer. Can you just post the values at two levels of Int which are very far apart?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But are we seeing evidence that spell hit is phasing out as a stat?

The only gear I have seen is "leveling" gear, and I haven't seen hit cloth, but I expect that.

For my Warlock buddies, they need 236 spell hit for 9% hit on Soul Shatter (since currently no talent affects that spell, maybe a Major Glyph will add some hit), so I would hope there is still some hit gear. I bet the Tier sets have hit rating and the more cloth gear will have sockets, so a healer can put spirit or whatever while the Warlock puts hit rating as needed in it.

With BC's 16% hit cap with level 80 ratings, they would need 422 hit rating, which isn't fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But are we seeing evidence that spell hit is phasing out as a stat?

We are aware of the concerns with reaching the hit rating cap, and will make sure Druids can pick up Rogue items to wear without exceeding that cap. This means Rogues will likely socket for hit, while Druids socket for Strength or Agility.

WoW Forums -> Cat form end-game scaling...

----------

Looks like they expect socketing to close the gap for hit rating with more generic gear options.

And with group synergy (Totem of Wrath and Improved Faerie Fire) and everyone using their 3% hit talents, people can get away with having 0 hit rating on gear.

And as a side note, it looks like this is similar to the Crushing Blow change, where they moved the gap from +3 to +4 levels. Manly had 13% hit and was still missing on +5 level mobs, when that would always be a hit if spells were using the melee hit table.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't think you're looking at this objectively. You seem to be looking at it through the lens of somebody who's upset to be losing some amount of power while gaining ten levels. A reasonable concern, but that's just how ratings work. You need to be looking at it in terms of whether it's maintaining the consistency of the overall system given some average gear level.

Actually, what upset me is more the excessive power inflation that seems out of control and ruins a lot of the immersion in the game (and even, often, the mechanisms themselves), and the fact that each of these "gear reset" are too excessive and make the entirety of the previous part of the game completely obsolete (to the point that it's counter-productive to run Strat/Scholo/BRS at lvl 58-59, and better to get greens in the Outlands).

The falloff was *not* appropriate with the increase in item level from 60 to 70. A max-level blue item was ilvl 60 (maybe 65) in pre-TBC, and ilvl 115 in TBC. That's at least a 75% increase in power, or as much as 90% given how many high-tier dungeon blues were even worse than ilvl 60. Meanwhile, the conversion rate only increased by 57%. Per point of item budget given to a rating stat, you're getting a better deal in TBC than in pre-TBC. An item with, say, 2% crit at level 60 had 28 crit rating. That same item in TBC has approximately 52 crit rating, and it's giving a level 70 player 2.4% crit.

Now, we don't know exactly what ilvl a max-level blue in WotLK is going to be. I'm going to try to extrapolate a little bit: A WotLK level 70 blue is ilvl 130. A random level 75 blue is around ilvl 171. Taking the difference and adding it to ilvl 171 gives us ilvl 212. That's probably pretty close to what a level 80 blue will be; it's 84% higher than a max-level TBC blue, and about 250% higher than a level 60 blue.

Now, suppose rating conversions had increased by only 57% again, so that it takes 22.1*1.57 = 34.7 crit rating per 1% crit. That level 60 item referenced earlier, with 28 crit rating, now has 98 crit rating; it's giving us 2.8% critical strike chance at 80, quite a bit higher than the 2% crit it was giving us. This trend doesn't work out.

Excuse me, but you're reinforcing my point instead of disproving it :

"The problem is in the extreme inflation in gear level, not the conversions."

It's not that the rating haven't sunken fast enough, it's just that the items were too powerful (although I'd like to point you that you compare the ilevel of an epic item to the ilevel of a rare item in one case, and two epics in the other).

And the same seems to be the case in WotLK, with insane increase of power, but at the same time insane lowering of the ratings effects.

Wouldn't it be more subtle, efficient and believable to have less steep curve in the rating downgrade, but at the same time a less steep curve in the ilvl upgrade ?

EDIT: Also, they're not really following a more pronounced inflation level in Wrath, it appears to be roughly the same deal. And ironically, ratings were introduced precisely to prevent the loot system from exploding from gear inflation, so your point suffers there.

There is twice as much loss of efficiency between lvl 70 and lvl 80 than between lvl 60 and lvl 70. It's clearly steeper.

And I don't see how my point suffer, on the contrary : why fight inflation by changing the whole game system, if it's to keep with increasing this same inflaiton ?

Just make less ilvl increase. Start with blue ilvl 110-115 at lvl 70 (so they are on-par with previous max instances, not phasing them completely out of the game, at least for the alts coming thereafter), and only increase up to ilvl 150-160 blue for ilvl 80 five-men instances.

Meaning that T7 would be about ilvl 165-170 epics, just a bit above Sunwell. All's good, there is still progression, and you have avoided overinflation. WHY the need to jump into the stratosphere with ilvl 200 epics as first-tier raid gear ? This just scream about putting big numbers without a reason, and increasing the inflation problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
You're getting closer. Can you just post the values at two levels of Int which are very far apart?

Ok, you are right i probably should.

Initial int - 511

Initial crit from int 6.89%

Changed int - 307

Changed crit from int - 4.8%

Difference in int - 204

Difference in crit from int - 2.09%

Leaving the int for 1% crit at 73 at 97.6076555.

So 100 was close but as you mentioned with such a small change somewhat inaccurate. Hope these new values help, I'll try to keep track of these each level from now on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And I don't see how my point suffer, on the contrary : why fight inflation by changing the whole game system, if it's to keep with increasing this same inflaiton ?

Just make less ilvl increase. Start with blue ilvl 110-115 at lvl 70 (so they are on-par with previous max instances, not phasing them completely out of the game, at least for the alts coming thereafter), and only increase up to ilvl 150-160 blue for ilvl 80 five-men instances.

Meaning that T7 would be about ilvl 165-170 epics, just a bit above Sunwell. All's good, there is still progression, and you have avoided overinflation. WHY the need to jump into the stratosphere with ilvl 200 epics as first-tier raid gear ? This just scream about putting big numbers without a reason, and increasing the inflation problem.

If you wanted to reroll a DK in WotLK, and wanted to gear up for raids and heroics, would you rather get SWP epics or level 80 dungeon blues? If you were trying to design a level 80 raid instance, do you expect the players to have level 80 dungeon blues or SWP epics?

If you answer "SWP Epics" to the questions, have fun raiding SWP at level 80, except you need the gear from BT/Hyjal to do SWP, so raid those as well. If you answered "dungeon blues", you better hope that those dungeon blues are equivalent to the SWP Epics that other people could have, because if you are applying to a raid, the raid is going to want you in good gear. Having to decide between a SWP Epic'ed Warlock and a dungeon blue DK should actually require thought, right?

Guess what ilvl the level 80 dungeon blues need to be in order to match a ilvl 164 epic? 200. So, if the dungeon blues aren't ilvl 200 or close to it, then your level 80 DK is going to need to raid SWP in order to get geared for Naxx. Alternatively, all of Naxx could be blown through in a week by the SWP Epic'ed raids if you were to design it around ilvl 160 dungeon blues.

Because of how the system works, the only option is to make the level 80 blues ilvl 200 because that is the required ilvl for them to be equivalent to the SWP epics. Plus, since people like epics, new epics need to be designed, and given the way epics scale, the ilvl 200 epics will have tons of stats, making them awesome if the ratings don't take a huge hit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First post updated with more data for crit per agi, spell crit per agi, base regen, formula yet to be found.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Regarding Roywyn's question about Boss Armour:

Generally I've noted that health scores have doubled as have the base damage scores for many melee attacks, but Sunder Armour only increases 50% (520 to 785).

Does this imply Armour values are only increasing by 50% or are the increases to things like Curse of Recklessness (20% via Frailty) and general physical DPS buffing (Improved BoM will boost BoM 50%) just mean Sunder Armour will be a comparitively smaller reduction in the Bosses Armour with the difference in damage made up from other sources.

Any comments from Beta on Armour scaling?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you wanted to reroll a DK in WotLK, and wanted to gear up for raids and heroics, would you rather get SWP epics or level 80 dungeon blues? If you were trying to design a level 80 raid instance, do you expect the players to have level 80 dungeon blues or SWP epics?

Ehm, I don't think SWP epics should be taken into equation at all. SWP was added as extra dungeon for extreme hardcore guilds - while initial raid encounters in WotLK are supposed to be something that general raiding crowd can cope with - that is people that did full ZA and probably part (or whole) MH/BT.

Again, SWP was extra, "buying time" content - not something designed for everyone as normal step in raiding progress.

So gear expected for players to have in initial raid encounters should be roughly equal to 136-141 epics - the ones players got in ZA, BT/MH and for badges. As rewards, they should obtain gear similar to the one from SWP (lev. 159-something).

It translates roughly to lev. 159-160 blues from normal WotLK instances (and couple of epics here and there) that will be good enough to start raiding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Regarding Roywyn's question about Boss Armour:

Generally I've noted that health scores have doubled as have the base damage scores for many melee attacks, but Sunder Armour only increases 50% (520 to 785).

Does this imply Armour values are only increasing by 50% or are the increases to things like Curse of Recklessness (20% via Frailty) and general physical DPS buffing (Improved BoM will boost BoM 50%) just mean Sunder Armour will be a comparitively smaller reduction in the Bosses Armour with the difference in damage made up from other sources.

Any comments from Beta on Armour scaling?

Well i can understand the huge increase in boss health as the amount of damage increasing debuffs and raid buffs have increased dramatically. If they didnt drastically increase the health of bosses you would have constant 2-3 minute raid boss fights, and overall they would be to easy unless they make the mechanics so insane that it has to be done in 2-3 minutes max.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ehm, I don't think SWP epics should be taken into equation at all. SWP was added as extra dungeon for extreme hardcore guilds - while initial raid encounters in WotLK are supposed to be something that general raiding crowd can cope with - that is people that did full ZA and probably part (or whole) MH/BT.

Again, SWP was extra, "buying time" content - not something designed for everyone as normal step in raiding progress.

So gear expected for players to have in initial raid encounters should be roughly equal to 136-141 epics - the ones players got in ZA, BT/MH and for badges. As rewards, they should obtain gear similar to the one from SWP (lev. 159-something).

It translates roughly to lev. 159-160 blues from normal WotLK instances (and couple of epics here and there) that will be good enough to start raiding.

If you did that, you'd have:

a) Those that did sunwell upset that they get 0 upgrades from the first tier of raiding in WotLK.

b) Those that didn't do sunwell upset that their best progression path is to go and farm the (now significantly easier since they have level 80 stats/talents/skills) sunwell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If you did that, you'd have:

a) Those that did sunwell upset that they get 0 upgrades from the first tier of raiding in WotLK.

b) Those that didn't do sunwell upset that their best progression path is to go and farm the (now significantly easier since they have level 80 stats/talents/skills) sunwell.

Point (a) is somehow valid but again, the fact that this forum is full of SWP farming/progressing players doesn't mean it's something Blizzard have to take in consideration, when designing new content for much wider group of players then present raiding community.

SWP people will be upset with first tier of WotLK raiding no matter what. Since Blizzard promised that Naxx will be proper "entry level" raiding dungeon, for SWP guilds it will be no challenge whatsoever and they will blitz through it in no time, no matter what gear it will provide.

On the other hand, average raiding guilds that new Naxx is supposed to be aimed for, even at level 80 will still have huge problems with SWP. Keep in mind that Naxx will be available in 10 and 25 ppl versions, while SWP will still be rather hard nut to crack for small groups. So at least those people will be forced to start in Naxx. As for bigger guilds - I can imagine some of them poking Sunwell few times... then leaving, because fights are too technical and hard to master. New Naxx, with its entry level content will be simply easier.

There is simply no need to make lev. 80 blue dungeon gear equal to top SWP epic one. And first tier of raiding gear in WotLK can be attractive for SWP raiders without insane item levels - Magister Terrace trinkets and various well tuned items are prime examples, how you can make great item without ilevel infaltion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blizzard obviously doesn't agree that the highest tier of pre-expansion gear should drive you right up to the second tier of post-expansion raiding, so there's really no point in trying to argue for it. They've thought about it and made their decision, and it's been the same decision twice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SWP people will be upset with first tier of WotLK raiding no matter what. Since Blizzard promised that Naxx will be proper "entry level" raiding dungeon, for SWP guilds it will be no challenge whatsoever and they will blitz through it in no time, no matter what gear it will provide.

The idea is to make it so that progression isn't hindered by the need to gear up in old instances/dungeons. I also doubt they want to design an instance that is obsolete the moment it comes out. I don't recall Kara, Gruul's Lair, and Mag's Lair being instantly skipped over for SSC and TK at the start of TBC.

Also, ilvl 141 epics would translate to ilvl 173 blues, not ilvl 160 blues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Progression would not be hindered by needing to gear in SWP, as you don't need equivalent gear to start an instance. Progression implies your gear will improve as you kill bosses. SWP guilds would still breeze through the entry content regardless of gear (No one else remember Gruul kills in T3, Illidan kills in T4-5, etc?), and probably would still upgrade their SWP gear, due to stat priorities shifting with the new mechanics. Item level is not the only metric.

Assuming SWP gear as the norm for 70 means that the gear inflation is huge. Assuming it is mid/end BT means that some SWP gear is viable at 79-80, but there doesn't need to be such an amazing bump in ilvls and rating requirements.

And just because Blizz has one opinion doesn't mean that a.) they are right b.) we can't debate alternatives.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I also doubt they want to design an instance that is obsolete the moment it comes out. I don't recall Kara, Gruul's Lair, and Mag's Lair being instantly skipped over for SSC and TK at the start of TBC.

Partly because you had to complete them before you could set foot in SSC/TK.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The change of spell hit to 9% has me fairly concerned. If you're in a raid with a boomkin, grouped with an ele shamam, and talented for 3% spell hit, you'll need 0 spell hit from gear.

That doesn't bode well at all, when you think about it. It'll marginalize the spell hit bonus from the Improved Faerie Fire talent, making it once again only truly useful for physical DPS. Every caster in an ele shaman group who got the hit talents will hit cap from gear without even trying. You'd think that the casters could just spec out of their +hit talents... but those talents all also reduce the mana costs of the spells they affect, so that's undesirable. And to top that off, having a boomkin will also partially marginalize the benefit of Totem of Wrath, since the spell hit will be moot.

We don't have hard numbers for any of the gear at 80, but unless the caster armor/weapons have no base hit rating at all, the moonkin and ele shaman synergies with are going to be half wasted. Considering that blizz is trying to consolidate DPS and healing gear, this may happen and my concerns will be assuaged... so here's hoping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We don't have hard numbers for any of the gear at 80

Ding ding ding. Blind speculation accomplishes nothing, you are basing your assumptions on gear at level 70, which was designed for a completely different system under which casters needed a lot more spell hit. I can't imagine what makes people assume, upon finding out that the base miss chance will be reduced, that itemization wouldn't also be changed to compensate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Am I crazy or will a fire mage only need 33 more hit rating at 80 than at 70? Assuming we're all using the melee scale now. If it's the spell scale I come up with two less rating needed.

9% miss rate minus 3% from talents= 6% needed x 32.8=196.8

With the increased ilvl values this leaves a ton of room for other stats.

That's the amount of hit for 6% for melee.

Mages and I'd assume most casters will only need 158 spell hit if there's no Ele Shammy or Boomkin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.