Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

constantius

WotLK Healing Compendium v3.0 [theorycraft, specs, etc]

2226 posts in this topic

It has been reported to me from people who tested it in-game that the Spell Power gained by IDS does actually stack with Flametongue/Wrath/Pact.

It does however not stack with the personal spirit scaling of a Warlock's Fel Armour.

Could be worth testing and/or reporting as it's not supposed to stack.

Maybe they changed their mind about buff stacking on this one?

It's the lvl70 version not being changed. The lvl80 version does NOT stack with Flametongue/Wrath/Pact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's the lvl70 version not being changed. The lvl80 version does NOT stack with Flametongue/Wrath/Pact.
Are you implying that we're going to be using rank 5 divine spirit at level 80 for the spellpower bonus or is it the new rank of totem of wrath that will stop them from stacking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I don't really disagree with the rest of your post, but this is a bit silly. The game is played 1.5 seconds at a time. Not to sound like an e-thug, but if anyone is having trouble keeping up with that pace, it's time to find a new hobby. At the point in this game where it is worthwhile to care about the benefits of SoL compared to other things, when that tiny bit of mana you will or will not have will actually matter, if you can't keep track of if you have the SoL buff or not (which is quite easy to determine with any number of mods... or just by looking at the buff icon), then you should really be comfortable enough to where it is not a burden at all to 'micromanage' SoL, it will just be second nature.

Sorry but I dont heal like that at all. Most of my concentration goes onto predicting who will take damage and thinking ahead which spell to use where.

Its not a question of whether you have the SoL buff, but where to use it and when . Lets say you cast CoH, you notice a proc (which you won't until you have already cast another instant if you are spamming) and you just hit the first person you see with a deficit, now if your next CoH overheals on that target because only 5 targets are damaged now instead of 6, you have just wasted your time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sorry but I dont heal like that at all. Most of my concentration goes onto predicting who will take damage and thinking ahead which spell to use where.

Its not a question of whether you have the SoL buff, but where to use it and when . Lets say you cast CoH, you notice a proc (which you won't until you have already cast another instant if you are spamming) and you just hit the first person you see with a deficit, now if your next CoH overheals on that target because only 5 targets are damaged now instead of 6, you have just wasted your time.

Yeah we get that you don't like SoL; you've made like 20 posts to that effect. I don't see how this specific case you've crafted here adds to the argument though. I suppose that yes, if exactly only 5 targets were taking the exact same amount of damage for a constant period of time, then CoH spam without using your SoL procs would be the right thing to do, but in general you can react to the effects of your CoH in the 1.5 seconds in between casts and change your plan accordingly. I have not personally had a problem inserting instant flash heals into a CoH spam cycle in a 25 man raid, and have found that using a SoL and inner focusing my next CoH is a nice way to get some O5SR time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The other main advantage of SoL, similar to the paladin talent Infusion of Light, is that it gives us (another) instant cast heal. If you're moving out of <insert AE effect here, i.e. FIRE>, and you CoH the group around you, and get a SoL proc, you can hit the person with the lowest health for some immediate coverage. It's a drastic increase in HpS to the lowest person when considered against casting another CoH. Obviously you do more total overall healing by casting another CoH, assuming there are targets to hit. But that lowest person might have already died.

Now, you could easily argue for a PW:S. But that costs mana. So when it comes to comparing the two, I'd much rather use a SoL'd Flash Heal than a PW:S.

Yes, it breaks the flow of chain-casting CoH on the raid. But as we've stated time and time again, there is No More Chain Casting CoH. You can't sustain it. You shouldn't be doing it. And if you're not chain-casting, there's worlds of time to fit a free Flash Heal in there.

Last week, I got 178 procs of SoL over our BT clear, most on trash. And it was tremendously useful. CoH a group, Flash the lowest. By that point, the other CoH and CHeals hit, and the group is topped up.

It's a useful talent. It's worth taking. It's better than a lot of alternatives. I'd sooner drop Healing Prayers and Holy Reach than Surge of Light now. It's not totally about efficiency. It's about tools in our toolbox. When we just got an expansion with no meaningful new spells for Holy, it's time to look at new procs and talents and see how we can use them effectively (obviously Disc got Penance; different world). SoL, IHC, Inner Focus all add up to OO5SR regen. It's the new Clearcast+IF, only a lot more likely to happen because of the nature of CoH (6 targets, independent 20%+ chance to crit on each one, 50% chance on crit, etc, etc).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To provide some data for our discussions, I am posting wowwebstats for usage of FH and GH either naked, or with 1317 spell power.

Wow Web Stats

Talent tree was World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

Notice that there are some procs of MH ring in data so filter it for proper results.

There is couple of points visible from it:

- 1 Spell power seems to be 1.85 healing

- Empovered healing coeficient with some haste gear on is not 3/3.5 for GH but 2.8/3.5 where 2.83 is spell duration after spell haste is applied (6% haste)

- Casting time with included spell hast is probably rounded to nearest 1/10 second as for FH with the same haste coeficient 1.5/3.5 looks ok

I am not sure about the coeficients for Empovered Healing but measured data seem to be in accordance with the calculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah we get that you don't like SoL; you've made like 20 posts to that effect. I don't see how this specific case you've crafted here adds to the argument though. I suppose that yes, if exactly only 5 targets were taking the exact same amount of damage for a constant period of time, then CoH spam without using your SoL procs would be the right thing to do, but in general you can react to the effects of your CoH in the 1.5 seconds in between casts and change your plan accordingly. I have not personally had a problem inserting instant flash heals into a CoH spam cycle in a 25 man raid, and have found that using a SoL and inner focusing my next CoH is a nice way to get some O5SR time.

Inserting a free cast does not mean it actually did anything. You get your shiny proc, you get your instant flash, but are you quite certain that you have actually gained any benefit. There rest of your post makes no sense to me.

CoH/PoM provides very uniform healing even when the targets are taking unequal damage. Also you are forgetting CoH crits.

As for inner focus/CoH/SoL, getting 1 second of FSR and using your 3 min CD IF with a relatively cheap spell that just goes to show how easily people can be fooled into thinking something is useful when its not, just because they get a shiny proc.

Also the fact that "you have had no trouble" inserting free flash heals in your CoH spam sequence, does not mean they are actually doing anything. Are you quite sure that the flash heals you insert are necessary? That is exactly what I am talking about, when I say people only look at whether they are getting any procs and not at what the procs do.

Some examples where SoL performs very poorly is hexlord malacrass and blooboil. Using the procs here has very strong negative impact on HPS for a negligible increase in HPM.

The other main advantage of SoL, similar to the paladin talent Infusion of Light, is that it gives us (another) instant cast heal. If you're moving out of <insert AE effect here, i.e. FIRE>, and you CoH the group around you, and get a SoL proc, you can hit the person with the lowest health for some immediate coverage. It's a drastic increase in HpS to the lowest person when considered against casting another CoH. Obviously you do more total overall healing by casting another CoH, assuming there are targets to hit. But that lowest person might have already died.

Now, you could easily argue for a PW:S. But that costs mana. So when it comes to comparing the two, I'd much rather use a SoL'd Flash Heal than a PW:S.

Yes, it breaks the flow of chain-casting CoH on the raid. But as we've stated time and time again, there is No More Chain Casting CoH. You can't sustain it. You shouldn't be doing it. And if you're not chain-casting, there's worlds of time to fit a free Flash Heal in there.

Last week, I got 178 procs of SoL over our BT clear, most on trash. And it was tremendously useful. CoH a group, Flash the lowest. By that point, the other CoH and CHeals hit, and the group is topped up.

It's a useful talent. It's worth taking. It's better than a lot of alternatives. I'd sooner drop Healing Prayers and Holy Reach than Surge of Light now. It's not totally about efficiency. It's about tools in our toolbox. When we just got an expansion with no meaningful new spells for Holy, it's time to look at new procs and talents and see how we can use them effectively (obviously Disc got Penance; different world). SoL, IHC, Inner Focus all add up to OO5SR regen. It's the new Clearcast+IF, only a lot more likely to happen because of the nature of CoH (6 targets, independent 20%+ chance to crit on each one, 50% chance on crit, etc, etc).

Alright I will give you that its useful to have an extra instant in some fights. However you really to use SoL at least once every 15 seconds for it to be worth taking.

178 procs over a BT clear, is actually very unimpressive. Assuming you used 50% which is a very tall order and 60min total fight time (which is very reasonable), its something like 1 proc every 40 seconds, or 40odd mp5. I call that very underwhelming.

Why where the procs useful. Do you mean to say that people would have died if you did not have it? Are you sure that casting another instant like PoM would not have had the exact same effect?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SoL is great for cheating the FSR without slacking on raid healing.

After using your first proc and while out of the FSR, a new SoL (generated through PoM that jumps like a charm) can proc while you use hymn of hope. Add inner focus + some aoe heal and you proc another SoL which you can use to stay out the FSR as well.

Thats a lot of mana gain.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question pertaining to the Discipline spec that you posted Constantius. I have always considered Power Infusion and Pain Suppression to be pvp talents with very few pve applicable purposes. I was just wondering what makes these talents useful in WotLK, if you could give some examples on how to use them in a raid and why those points arent better spent elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a question pertaining to the Discipline spec that you posted Constantius. I have always considered Power Infusion and Pain Suppression to be pvp talents with very few pve applicable purposes. I was just wondering what makes these talents useful in WotLK, if you could give some examples on how to use them in a raid and why those points arent better spent elsewhere.

I really don't see where else you'd even spend those points. There's really not anything left in the Discipline tree, and getting anything useful in Holy requires moving more than just those two points. Power Infusion can be a nice boost to have for DPS check fights, especially if it's timed with cooldowns/Heroism. Pain Suppression can be used to mitigate predictable damage bursts that come at inconvenient times, as a sort of preemptive emergency button.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
s something like 1 proc every 40 seconds, or 40odd mp5. I call that very underwhelming.

Why where the procs useful. Do you mean to say that people would have died if you did not have it? Are you sure that casting another instant like PoM would not have had the exact same effect?

First of all, PoM procs after hit so if your target got lawl 2% hp PoM won't prevent it from death, just jump and it always cost mana (SoL proc not)

Personally i love SoL, on fights like Felmyst, or KJ it's must be talent in my opinion, i got 24 of SoL procs on last KJ and every i used.

and on beta aswell, there is alot situations when SoL save my/raid ass. for ex. Meaxxna, when spiders come there is a little raid dmg, use CoH, get SoL proc and use it after webs on dying tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ad. 2: you're right, not sure where my number came from. I'll take a closer look at what I was theoretically thinking later when my head is less fuzzy.

Ad. 4: I haven't seen my Shadowfiend return less than 10 hits @ 4% each so far in 3.0.x. Max so far is 15, minimum 11. That is, of course, excepting cases where I'm stupid and launch him into AE of death. :) In that case, modeling as ~ 40% is reasonable, I think.

Ad. 5: You're right that this was never anything but a hack model. We could debate this one forever. I'll run another pass at it and see what I come up with. Either way we do it, it's fairly small compared to Replenishment, mana pool, and shadowfiend. At 167 int per percent crit, it's not going to scale quickly at all.

The value at the end should have just been the sum of all of the factors, multiplied by the scaling factors allowed (BoK for holy, BoK+MS for disc). Of course, who knows. I asked for some feedback on the models, but this is the first I've seen. I'll see what I can integrate and get back to y'all.

I was checking if I agree with your calculations rather than with the model, as I am nowhere near experienced enough to debate the latter with you (I am not in beta and I didn't step into SW before 3.0). In the point about shadowfiend I was referring to section V.b of your compendium (taking advantage of shadowfiend), where you suggest to model his returns as 25-35%.

Same for the returns from IHC. The model you suggested while estimating holy crit value is a 50/50 split between BH and GH. In the point 5 of the list however, there is a note that 0.114 mp5 is the value of 1 int in 50/50 split between FH and GH (over 6 min fight). The 0.114 mp5 value is the value for 50/50 BH/GH split. The value for 50/50 FH/BH split is 0.063 mp5. Depending on model returns from IHC free casts are worth slightly more or slightly less than shadowfiend returns.

EDIT: seems I have miscalculated this as well, the mp5 value per point of int in 50/50 FH/GH split should be 26*0.01*0.45*6*1054/167/72 = 0.061. In other word it is 0.00224 times the number of casts that may proc ihc, which is almost two times lower for fh/gh split than it is for bh/gh split.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Havoc12, have you considered using Surge of Light to proc Judgement of Wisdom? (Although I beleive Judgement of Wisdom just got nerfed / is being changed).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With the rapture formula you stated (which holds up to testing for me with both heals and shields) int has a furhter function for discipline priest mana regen beyond increasing criticals to proc Aegis.

Since the formula is:

max mana/base mana * healing done * 0.01035

And each point of int gives you (assuming kings) 1.15*1.1*15 = 18.975 mana

Each point of int gives increases the amount of mana you get per point of effective healing or per point absorbed by 18.975/3863 * 0.01035 = 0.00005084.

That may look like a really small number, but over the course of a raid encounter, you might heal for half a million (a number off the top of my head for level 80) which would mean 25 more mana, which would account for about 0.353 Mp5, putting the Mp5 value of 1 Int up to 0.988 Mp5. It would be worthwhile to revise my random 500,000 guesstimate to get a more accurate picture, but even at half of that Int would be nearly twice as effective as spirit for mana regen for discipline priests.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read through the forums, and I am completely baffled as to why anyone would spec into improved inner light? Why not silent resolve? I tried to look around for this reasoning. Could someone tell me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I read through the forums, and I am completely baffled as to why anyone would spec into improved inner light? Why not silent resolve? I tried to look around for this reasoning. Could someone tell me
Inner fire at level 71 also boosts spellpower. Silent Resolve is essentially unnecessary, as threat is not a concern in any reasonable environment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, about holy concentration and improved concentration, it seems to me that you need more crit to make this even proc. I'm not happy with this talent as it is because it doesnt proc as much as I would like it to. Shouldn't this be more of a paladin thing? If i was to pick this talent tree up... i guess I would have to put 5/5 in holy specialization?

Any thoughts on this talent?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They're both weak talents, but Improved Inner Fire at least does something, which is more than you can say about Silent Resolve with the current state of tank threat. Of course, if the threat situation changes, it's easy to move the Inner Fire points over later.

[e]

Now, about holy concentration and improved concentration, it seems to me that you need more crit to make this even proc. I'm not happy with this talent as it is because it doesnt proc as much as I would like it to. Shouldn't this be more of a paladin thing? If i was to pick this talent tree up... i guess I would have to put 5/5 in holy specialization?

Any thoughts on this talent?

5/5 Holy Specialization is a pretty good idea with the Holy tree in the state that it's in now. In general, especially at level 80, you will have more critical strike chance than you're used to having due to itemization and the new preference for Intellect for regen. Crit has a ton of extra effects now - with (Improved) Holy Concentration being tied to it, Surge of Light, Serendipity, and the old standby Inspiration among other things that probably aren't immediately coming to mind, it's definitely worth it. Neither Healing Focus or Improved Renew are exceptionally good talents anymore, with the changes to spell pushback and the fact that you'll probably just be casting Renew less often than before. Those points can be moved into Holy Specialization.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't see a section on Glyphs. I am assuming that once Blizzard actually implements some more Glyphs for Priests, that it may prove useful. (Right now, it seems like the top three are Flash Heal, Renew, and PW:S. Although I did that off the top of my head.)

Healing Focus *MAY* be useful. With a Conc Aura, you can get to 100+% non-pushback. In most cases, a little pushback is not much to worry about. However, any pushback does basically kill that last pulse of Penance, which negates its effect by a bit. Is it worth 2 talents points and a Conc Aura? *shrug*

PI and PS both are just fun tools to have now. Maybe at 80 there may be more use, but right now, they're just for fun, and their effects feel limited. The threat-down component on a dps from PS is a non-issue. 1) Tank threat is much higher than before and 2) Hand of Salvation is a much better threat reduction tool. (We don't have it, but I assume you raid with paladins who know what they're doing) PI is still just for fun. Maybe when dps races get back in the game, it'll be useful. However, raid-wide Heroism/Bloodlust is a better buff (that will overwrite your PI)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Healing Focus *MAY* be useful. With a Conc Aura, you can get to 100+% non-pushback. In most cases, a little pushback is not much to worry about. However, any pushback does basically kill that last pulse of Penance, which negates its effect by a bit. Is it worth 2 talents points and a Conc Aura? *shrug*

It's my understanding that Healing Focus and Concentration Aura do not stack, so the points in healing focus only give you at best .15secs less push back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Healing Focus *MAY* be useful. With a Conc Aura, you can get to 100+% non-pushback. In most cases, a little pushback is not much to worry about. However, any pushback does basically kill that last pulse of Penance, which negates its effect by a bit. Is it worth 2 talents points and a Conc Aura? *shrug*

Haven't personally tested it, but I'm pretty sure that Concentration Aura and Healing Focus don't stack. If you've got an Improved Concentration Aura in the raid, you're looking at spending two talent points to gain 15% pushback reduction. I can see the argument for Discipline priests regarding Penance, but certainly for Holy that can't be worth the points. There's far too many other places that those points can be put to good use.

[e] ninja'd :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re: Glyphs:

- Flash Heal glyph is almost required, since it's our bread & butter mid-range heal now

- CoH glyph is a no-brainer for any Holy priest; 6 targets is awesome

- PW:S glyph is actually good for both specs; Holy can possibly replaced it with the Dispel Magic Glyph

Minor glyphs don't matter, although no-reagent Levitate is awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Minor glyphs don't matter, although no-reagent Levitate is awesome.

Wouldn't the Glyph of Shadowfiend be the ideal raiding glyph in case of mis-timing the shadowfiend and it wanders into AoE or other such mishaps?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SoL is great for cheating the FSR without slacking on raid healing.

After using your first proc and while out of the FSR, a new SoL (generated through PoM that jumps like a charm) can proc while you use hymn of hope. Add inner focus + some aoe heal and you proc another SoL which you can use to stay out the FSR as well.

Thats a lot of mana gain.

That situation you are describing is maybe once a fight. You have to subtract the gain from the potential uses of IF without SoL. Its a drop in the ocean.

First of all, PoM procs after hit so if your target got lawl 2% hp PoM won't prevent it from death, just jump and it always cost mana (SoL proc not)

Personally i love SoL, on fights like Felmyst, or KJ it's must be talent in my opinion, i got 24 of SoL procs on last KJ and every i used.

and on beta aswell, there is alot situations when SoL save my/raid ass. for ex. Meaxxna, when spiders come there is a little raid dmg, use CoH, get SoL proc and use it after webs on dying tank.

PoM heals for about as much as a flash heal.

Making a 1.5 flash heal instant wont save your tank.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're using SoL procs on your tank, you're missing the point. Making SoL instant is a good thing. And as argued up a few posts, PoM has the downside that if someone is down enough HP, it may never proc, because they're dead. Flash can save them in that situation.

It's a good talent. It scales with crit. It's fun. It gives us another mobility healing tool. There's really not much to hate about it. Yes, Healing Prayers is more pure regen. However, that's all it is.

This is exactly the same argument that was used by people saying the original version of DP was better than MA. And it was ... unless you want pure regen. So in the same way that MA > DP for pure regen (even if slightly), HP > SoL. But SoL has applications and extra use, whereas HP is a pure mana cost savings. So for the same reason most people are going 14/57/0 instead of 20/51/0, most people will take SoL over HP.

Now stop arguing about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.