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Illundai

DPS Compendium

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The vulnerability is 5%, though we have no confirmation on it stacking with ebon or not(I assume yes).

While Cinder Glacier does not have a higher proc rate, it does however have the advantage that lets say you get a proc, then another proc 5 seconds later. In that scenario you get a maximum of 20 seconds(assuming no more procs in that window) of fallen crusader, where as you might still get 100% of the value of cinder glacier due to no internal cooldown. So if it procs 3ppm after skills you can't guarantee anything like 45 seconds of uptime vs 6 charges. I certainly agree modeling this could be difficult, and not even worth doing if like 20 seconds of crusader > permanent cinder glacier, but if it is close the modeling needs to be done.

Hm. I'll give it some thought and see what I can come up with. Thanks for the confirmation on the vulnerability bonus. I might take the easy way out and create a 'dumb' simulation on my sheets.

This brings up a good point about the compendium. We should have all the information we can grab on PPMs and Internal cooldowns in the Runeforge section.

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I guess I should add the qualifier that I didn't play beta at all. What I came up with is based purely on a spreadsheet. In-game experience certainly trumps that if anybody sees a problem with what I proposed.

The issue I have with your spec is that you don't do enough spell damage to warrant dumping Dark Conviction (which adds a ton to your white AND spell damage) for Impurity. In addition, I don't believe that spec will generate enough RP to support gargoyle.

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There is another Frost build that you might consider adding:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

14/50/7

Allows a rotation of:

IT - PS - BS - BS - OB - FS

OB - OB - OB - FS - FS

This scales considerably better with weapon damage than the 17/54 spec you mentioned. It is also greatly improved by 4pc. Tier 7, as the set bonus affects obliterate. With that bonus, you can fit a second FS into the first rotation.

Great thread we have here. I also noticed the 4pc Tier7 would be a nice benefit to a build like this.

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Great thread we have here. I also noticed the 4pc Tier7 would be a nice benefit to a build like this.

I find it a bit funny that the T7 bonuses are both heavily favoring Unholy and Frost. Blood is better off with Heart strikes so they will more than likely be looking elsewhere for their DPS min/maxing.

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I was under the impression Haste would reduce the GCD on Icy Touch, Howling Blast and Death Coil.

I could be wrong, however.

Edit: To the above, yeah that does seem awfully odd and confusing. I'll get that changed.

Possibly Unholy Blight (and most/all of the skills on the AP coeff table perhaps?) as well - anything that's a spell should be affected by the GCD reduction of (spell) haste, outside of unholy presence where the minimum GCD has already been achieved.

On the subject of Ghoul explosion, I believe that was a ghoul ability at some point in beta that got replaced by a (hidden) use of Corpse Explosion, where you can use corpse explosion with your ghoul as it's target and do a solid amount of AoE damage at the cost of your ghoul. I wasn't in beta though, so could someone confirm that? Probably unlikely to be of use as a general purpose dps ability, but worth considering when choosing to skip Corpse Explosion or not in an Unholy spec, and the damage mechanics of that would be useful for figuring out if there are any cases worth using it in, or if having corpse explosion and using this when your ghoul is almost expired is a dps gain without MoG.

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I find it a bit funny that the T7 bonuses are both heavily favoring Unholy and Frost. Blood is better off with Heart strikes so they will more than likely be looking elsewhere for their DPS min/maxing.

Yeah, even more battling over plate DPS gear. At least this time around it looks like they did really well on itemization for plate.

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Yeah, even more battling over plate DPS gear. At least this time around it looks like they did really well on itemization for plate.

Warriors will still be all over leather as agility fully benefits them, and stacking crit is significantly better for them than for dks.

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It should be further noted that Death Rune Mastery works somewhat different from what you'd expect. If you have all your Unholy and Frost Runes as Death Runes (so BBDDDD), and then use an Obliterate or Death Strike, the following happens:


  • [1] Your two Unholy Runes which are currently Death Runes will get used by the ability.
    [2] Only one of your recently used Death Runes will remain a Death Rune. The other will turn back to Unholy, despite having just been used for an ability. (Or BBDDDU)

If you have only your Unholy Runes as Death Runes, and your Frost Runes are currently on cooldown, thus making it that your two converted Unholy Runes get used by Obliterate or Death Strike (BBFFDD), the following happens:


  • [1] Your two Unholy Runes which are currently Death Runes will get used by the ability.
    [2] As before, only one of your two Unholy Runes becomes a Death Rune, however one of your Frost Runes (despite not being used by the ability) will also become a Death Rune. (BBDFDU)

That also applies if you have two Frost Runes as Death Runes and you use those for Obliterate or Death Strike. You end up with one of the Frost Runes staying a Death Rune, while one of the Unholy Runes will also turn into a Death Rune.

Thanks to Chicken

You only mention death rune mastery, which I guess is the only one that affects dual-rune skills, and I never actually played in the beta, so I don't know whether this affects the other death rune talents, but I'll assume it does. Note this is pure conjecture, but I think it pretty much explains this behavior elegantly:

Death runes fulfill the resource requirements for skills, but are not, in fact the right rune types for the mastery talents.

Or, if you prefer:

Skills check for the active runes, mastery talents check the underlying rune slot types

EDIT: This, of course, affects Death Rune Mastery only because death runes are always used Blood > Unholy > Frost, regardless of the skill used.

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Herbalism: [iTEM]Fire Leaf[/iTEM] - Seems to be completely useless for DKs in its current implementation because of Bladed Armor. Hope they change it to increases physical damage taken by 20% or something like that.

Alchemy: Reports are either +60 AP (+33%) or +90 AP (+50%) for [iTEM]Flask of Endless Rage[/iTEM]. Big problem is, you have to be able to make it yourself to get the bonus. You can only discover 1 recipe per week (so it might take 20+ weeks to get it).

As many people have said, Bladed Armor does not automatically update. Considering the buff only lasts ten seconds, I would assume that you never lose the AP from Bladed Armor. It is possible that Bladed Armor works by updating at fixed intervals, but it seems to be that it only updates 20+ seconds after your armor has changed. That needs testing I suppose.

Either way, to get the full 66.7 requires you to be popping one every minute, which depending on how rare they are could prove to be a serious hassle.

Good point on Alchemy requiring you know the flask.

Additionally, it might be worth explaining Pestilence's mechanics. Pestilence does not refresh the diseases on the target you cast it on, but the diseases spread will start at max duration (unless this has been changed).

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I find it a bit funny that the T7 bonuses are both heavily favoring Unholy and Frost. Blood is better off with Heart strikes so they will more than likely be looking elsewhere for their DPS min/maxing.

It's true those bonuses benefit frost and unholy more. However, blood still uses obliterate in the rotations, and obliterate still hits quite hard as blood from what I hear.

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A couple of minor typo's/corrections-

Unholy's token aura is Unholy Aura, which will make the run speed portion of Frost Presence a raidwide aura (do note this is NOT linked to whether or not the Death Knight is in Unholy Presence). Some argue that it's not worth picking up, more on that below in the Talent Choices section.

This is take from Unholy Presence's abilities, not Frost Presence.

As for remaining minor glyph slots, you can chose whatever you find most helpful. At the moment, the only remotely helpful minor glyphs for unholy that haven't been mentioned are Glyph of Blood Tap and Glyph of Raise Dead.

Glyph of Raise Dead is actually a Major Glyph, not a minor.

Also, as of the build before last (the most recent build I played), MoG pets do not have Explode, the only way to explode them was to use Corpse Explosion on them.

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Tailoring = 90 AP

That doesn't look quite right to me, with a 45 seconds internal CD, 25% proc chance, 4 instant weapon attacks in 10 seconds and a raidbuffed average attack speed of 2.5 seconds (that's already quite fast) I get the following numbers:

300*15/(45+1/0.25*10/8)=90 which fits the number you mentioned but you lose the normal cloak enchant which would've given 22 Agility, with that calculated in it should be somewhere between 50 and 70 AP, depending on your spec.

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Ah, sorry, got confused when the link in the Minor Glyph section linked the Major Glyph version.

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I did some research and found that my ApR to AP calculation was slightly off.

Here is the new table and math for evaluating my findings. I accidentally applied the armor pen reduction to the base armor and not the armor after debuffs.

Should be this:

((Armor-debuffs)*ArP)/(((Armor-debuffs)*ArP)+15232.5)

The new table: (Raid Buffed)

[Table=head]Stat|Unholy|Blood|Frost

1ApR|0.5447|1.0456|0.7628

[/Table]

I think that looks A LOT more reasonable and fits with what we know about Magic-to-Physical proportions.

So haste is about as good as ApR for Unholy but ApR is much more valuable to Blood and to a lesser extent Frost.

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Thanks a lot Illundai for putting this up. Is someone working on the tanking post? It seems to me that a big chunk of the info you posted is not DPS specific, but good general DK information. The things I think would need to be covered in a tanking post would be itemization and talents/specs/rotations.

Also, it might be worth adding another subsection (or maybe editing the post immediately after the main one) with some leveling suggestions. (Or maybe this deserves a thread on its own?)

Things that could be covered there include:

* Talent specs for leveling

* Weapons and other important gear to pick up from quests / the AH / instances / etc. while leveling

* Mobs/quests which are easy/hard for DKs to deal with

* Things to have in the bank to make leveling go faster (quest turnins, etc.)

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Things that could be covered there include:

* Talent specs for leveling

* Weapons and other important gear to pick up from quests / the AH / instances / etc. while leveling

* Mobs/quests which are easy/hard for DKs to deal with

* Things to have in the bank to make leveling go faster (quest turnins, etc.)

Talent spec doesn't really matter, most players prefer Unholy though.

The start area gear is good enough to get reasonably fast to 70 without having to really care much for Outland gear, doesn't matter for that under 1 day /played anyway.

You can do every quest that's not tagged as a 5-man quest solo.

If you really want to be 15 minutes faster you can get the EPL turn-ins (30 each) and the 3 Aldor/Scryer specific turn-ins.

You don't need a new thread to cover that, do you?

@Methods:

So we don't have a decent tertiary stat after reaching the hit cap if I'm not missing anything? Bad design if you ask me.

Edit: Just noticed that we don't even have a really decent secondary stat after reaching the hit cap, only Expertise when Blood specced is fairly decent. I can't really believe that crit is that bad, are you using a very low AP/Weapon DPS setup as a base?

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Edit: Just noticed that we don't even have a really decent secondary stat after reaching the hit cap, only Expertise when Blood specced is fairly decent. I can't really believe that crit is that bad, are you using a very low AP/Weapon DPS setup as a base?

Don't take that table as the word of God just yet. While Methods certainly did an excellent job on his spreadsheet and helping us with this info, it's still too early in DK theorycrafting. Even if his math was right with the forumulas he did use, it's entirely possible he's missing something. For now, assume that with the exception of haste blizzard has itemized our tier gear well, and use that as a general guide.

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@Methods:

So we don't have a decent tertiary stat after reaching the hit cap if I'm not missing anything? Bad design if you ask me.

Edit: Just noticed that we don't even have a really decent secondary stat after reaching the hit cap, only Expertise when Blood specced is fairly decent.

I'd say that blood does. Points in ApR are as valuable as getting the same amount in AP. The same goes for Crit for all specs. I agree it does kind of put us in a corner. You have to admit that it's not anywhere near as bad as the single stat system that Affliction Warlocks had for all of BC.

A big change that could really help this is giving agility a spell crit conversion. It would make perfect sense and It really is just a remnant of an outdated system.

It's tricky to give DK's anything else because of the balance problem between Duel-weild and Two Handers. I'm glad haste is low in our priorities even though itemization has shifted strongly in it's favor. Here's hoping they find a way to make Unholy Presence useful.

Edit: Regarding crit used in my calculations I was using a base of 21.8% crit which, after raid buffs, went up to ~37% crit for unholy and ~34.8% for Frost and Blood. AP was Base- 947str + 380ap from items which, with raid buffs, came up to 4533ap for Unholy, 4620ap for Blood, and 4444ap for Frost. Any standard raid buffs you can think of I'm pretty sure I included.

In a way it's kind of liberating to be able to focus so strongly on STR/Hit/Crt for gemming and enchanting purposes. Any idea how much the ilevel value for STR compares to Hit/Crt?

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The issue I have with your spec is that you don't do enough spell damage to warrant dumping Dark Conviction (which adds a ton to your white AND spell damage) for Impurity. In addition, I don't believe that spec will generate enough RP to support gargoyle.

Well in my spec those 5 points (Dark Conviction vs. Impurity) are fully swappable. That would come down to mathing out which gained more DPS.

As for RP for gargoyle like I said, skip two DCs and keep the extra RP from a rime proc'd rotation and you have 100 RP.

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They could make haste increase rune regeneration, capped at -1sec, with a rather high amount of haste. Would probably make it better, without making it overpowered as long as you can't soft cap it too easily.

As for Unholy Presence, it's useful, for PvP. The movement speed, especially when not unholy speced is awesome, and it lets you bomb people with the reduced GCD which compensates for the lower damage output. I think it's decent that way, even though it's obviously not very useful for pve.

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I'd say that blood does. Points in ApR are as valuable as getting the same amount in AP. The same goes for Crit for all specs. I agree it does kind of put us in a corner. You have to admit that it's not anywhere near as bad as the single stat system that Affliction Warlocks had for all of BC.

A big change that could really help this is giving agility a spell crit conversion. It would make perfect sense and It really is just a remnant of an outdated system.

It's tricky to give DK's anything else because of the balance problem between Duel-weild and Two Handers. I'm glad haste is low in our priorities even though itemization has shifted strongly in it's favor. Here's hoping they find a way to make Unholy Presence useful.

There is no agility on Plate though, so that wouldn't really change anything. Ratings also cost double as many item budget points as AP and I've never seen a class (notice: not spec) getting more than double as much DPS per item budget from their primary stat than from their secondary stat when Expertise/Hit capped which you'll be very soon. On my Enhancement Shaman for example I'm currently hovering around a 2 AP value for Agility and every rating.

I'm still for my suggestion I already made months ago in the beta forums, I'd really like to see some yellow-DPS talents changed to be based on autoattacks, for example Sudden Death could proc off autoattacks, Bloody Strikes could make every autoattack(or critical autoattack) give you a stacking damage bonus for Heart Strike/Obliterate that fades after using one of those abilities, etc.

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There is no agility on Plate though, so that wouldn't really change anything. Ratings also cost double as many item budget points as AP and I've never seen a class (notice: not spec) getting more than double as much DPS per item budget from their primary stat than from their secondary stat when Expertise/Hit capped which you'll be very soon. On my Enhancement Shaman for example I'm currently hovering around a 2 AP value for Agility and every rating.

Maybe not on our set but on a fair amount of the 'best' non-set plate armor there is a good spread of Agi. I agree it would solve nothing for our tertiary stats but it would help us make easier choices on gear. At the moment I would pretty much skip anything with AGI. The question is, what could they do to increase crit's value or make other stats more useful?

Regarding the talents based on auto attacks. There seems to be no good way to make them balanced with DW in the picture. The more you rely on your autoattacks for procs/white damage the more DW wins the balance fight. I've tried to think of the best possible solutions and all I can think of is having talents that do different things for DW and 2H. That would violate the "Keep it simple stupid" rule though.

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