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RareBeast

Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2)

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Looking at my armory, that should be -1% DoT damage and -2.2% mana drain.

Yeah DoT damage was my mistake but the mana drain bit I can't find any other info to support the extra 0.2% .

edit: Just found the info on the mana-drain effect increase:-

Resilience: Now reduces the magnitude of mana draining effects by the same amount that it reduces critical strike damage.

So I assume the increase to the Crit damage reduction has been carried across to the mana drain even though it wasn't specifically mentioned in the 3.0.3 Patch Notes. Thanks for spotting that Erdluf.

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I've been looking into gear choice while levelling to 80. I can't get a good handle on Haste or Armour Penetration, and how they relate to other stats on gear.

I'm sure I didn't miss it, as I searched the forum for euivalence ratings or anything I could use to generate them, but can't find anything. If I've missed it, apologies.

I'm not after four decimal places of accuracy or anything, but could really use an indicator of relative worth, mainly for DPS for levelling. I use ratingsbuster, so when I compare gear, I often have a choice like:

+15 AP

+0.3% Hit

+0.39% Crit

-1.3% Haste

Hit: I tend to use uncapped hit as a base. +1% hit, when uncapped is equal to around +1% more damage. I know it isn't exact, for abilities like rip and rake and some energy is refunded in certain circumstances, but it's probably good enough.

Crit: is similar, because you do double damage on a crit, but it doesn not affect rake, rip etc.

Attack Power. Does +x% AP increase your damage by a factor of x?

Haste. Again, does +x% Haste increase damage done by a factor of x? Or do you start running out of energy, and therefore it only really applies to white damage?

Armour Penetration. Similarly, is there any way to value this against other stats?

I have some numbers in my head and tend to value (in round 1% terms, and uncapped where applicable), Hit -> AP -> Crit -> Haste -> Armour Penetration. Am I way off?

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Attack Power. Does +x% AP increase your damage by a factor of x?

Haste. Again, does +x% Haste increase damage done by a factor of x? Or do you start running out of energy, and therefore it only really applies to white damage?

Armour Penetration. Similarly, is there any way to value this against other stats?

AP basically increases your damage by a factor of x, as all your abilities scale with AP.

Haste only affects white attacks and omen of clarity procs. Even with higher OoC procs, haste is still not that great of a DPS stat; white damage is simply not that high relative to yellow damage. I rate it at about the same value as AP point per point, which means it's about half as good since you get double the AP normally.

ArPen is not bad, but right now it doesn't do a whole lot since it works on percentages instead of base values and mobs tend to have not a lot of armor. That + the bleed damage means that armor pen is slightly less valuable than haste, at least for me.

In general, it goes like this:

hit = expertise > strength > agility > AP > crit >>> haste > arpen.

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Yes, the 15% parry is certainly not confirmed from what I can find. There is even less information on non-boss mobs parry rates. The 6.5% dodge rate for bosses is one that I have seen fairly consistantly in several places so I think it is likely to be accurate.

If someone wants to respec out of Primal Precision, take off all their Expertise gear and test it on one of the target dummies, I would love to see the results. I can't do it yet as I am only 77 still and the tests should really be done at 80.

I didn't spec out of PP, but I did something like a 9 hour test last night against the heroic dummy with all my gear off. If you add the 2.5% for PP, I got 13.9% parry, 6.5% dodge, and 8.2% miss. The dodge number is spot on, and the parry numbers seems reasonable, but the miss is a little troubling since I thought that was a well researched mechanic. Seems to me like either there's some +hit I'm getting that I'm not aware of (and doesn't show up on the character sheet), I just got a ridiculously improbable lack of misses, or the training dummy uses different mechanics than a real raid boss (which pretty much invalidates everything else in the test). I suppose the 9% number we're all used to could be wrong, but I find that pretty unlikely.

I'll do another test tonight against the level 80 dummy. I can also redo the heroic test without PP if adding 2.5% to the dodge and parry numbers isn't valid for some reason.

dummytest.jpg

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Agility

1 Agi = 1.166 AP (1.2826 AP) (Cat only)

1 Agi = 0.01272% (0.13992%) Crit

1 Agi = 0.02544 (0.027984) % Dodge

1 Agi = 2.12 (2.332) Armor

You seem to have missed a 0 after the dot on the crit part with kings. Going from 0.012% to 0.139% is quite an increase.

Also, at the defense breakdown you listed 1 defrating as giving 1% crit reduction if we dont have SotF. I'm assuming you ment to place that at the defense skill part, only its listed there aswell. Maybe remove the line at defense rating?

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Now def cap for war and pala is 540 (was 490), for druid was 415 (survival of the fittest). Sombody told me that now for drod is only nead 3xsurvival of the fittest to be uncrttable (I dont belive in that).

My question what is now def cup for druid tank.

Thx for answer!

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You only need 3/3 SOTF to be uncrittable. That is true. Level 83 bosses have a 5.6% chance to crit, SOTF reduces you by 6% chance to be critted.

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This was a while ago, but I thought I read they removed glancing blows? Weapon skill used to reduce your chance of getting a glancing blow, but I thought when they removed weapon skill they also got rid of glancing blows.

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Glancing blows are still in. I did a few a week ago against a 6+ higher mob.

I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I thought they removed them from mobs +3 levels over you, kind of like they did with crushing blows.

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You seem to have missed a 0 after the dot on the crit part with kings. Going from 0.012% to 0.139% is quite an increase.

Also, at the defense breakdown you listed 1 defrating as giving 1% crit reduction if we dont have SotF. I'm assuming you ment to place that at the defense skill part, only its listed there aswell. Maybe remove the line at defense rating?

Thanks Multane. /sigh I can't believe more mistakes still are being found.

I didn't spec out of PP, but I did something like a 9 hour test last night against the heroic dummy with all my gear off. If you add the 2.5% for PP, I got 13.9% parry, 6.5% dodge, and 8.2% miss. The dodge number is spot on, and the parry numbers seems reasonable, but the miss is a little troubling since I thought that was a well researched mechanic.

Thanks for that test. The miss result certainly is interesting. I'm pretty sure we'd know if the accepted miss figure was wrong. Misses have been reported with people being only just under the cap. I wonder if it is the training dummy. I might be speccing resto tonight for some heroics, so I might leave my toon hitting the dummy tonight when I go to bed and see what sort of result I get.

I was going to ask if someone might have put a debuff on the dummy, but having had a look now, there doesn't seem to be any buff or debuff that affects your chance to hit the mob (only the mobs chance to hit you).

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Defense Rating

1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed (and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit if you don't have SotF)

This is a bit misleading, even with SotF defense does reduce your chance to be crit, whilst you are unable to be crit by a normal mob/boss with SotF talent you can still be crit by a mob or player with crit chance higher then 6%.

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This is a bit misleading, even with SotF defense does reduce your chance to be crit, whilst you are unable to be crit by a normal mob/boss with SotF talent you can still be crit by a mob or player with crit chance higher then 6%.

Fair call. I have changed the line to read :-

1 DefenseRating = 0.008% dodge and 0.008% chance to be missed and 0.008% reduced chance to be crit (Crit reduction not needed for PvE if you have SotF )

Does that wording seem clear? I know there are some unusual mobs with higher than normal crit chances or debuffs that increase their crit chance, but we could make the list unreadable by trying to include every little exception. If people feel otherwise, let me know what you suggest I change it to.

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I may be totally off but I still have to ask this:

Assuming that any Feral would want to have nearly 100% Uptime of Savage Roar and that it has a significant influence of attack power shouldn't that be taken into account at the first posting? I thought the reason of the thread was to help people to understand the mechanics an to help them pick the appropriate gear. So taking SR into account would mean a rather large decrease of value for any of the combat ratings or - from the other perspective - a large increase of the value of strength, agi and of course pure attack power. So I'd at least mention it...

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This thread isn't trying to weight one stat vs. another. The value of crit vs AP for example is going to be different for every different combination of gear. There are plenty of tools that will give you those stat weightings for your gear eg. Rawr, Toskks

This thread is more a reference for doing your own theorycrafting (eg. working out how much more expertise you need to be capped) as well as a guide for those newer to druid theorycrafting explaining exactly what each stat gives you - things like defense rating for example are not exactly self-explanatory.

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Pardon me if this is the wrong thread to post to, I will move it if you have a suggestion of a better thread.

I'm having some concerns about Feral tanking. I did some browsing of Wowwebstats and found the following.

All from 25man Patchwerk, all Main tanks:

Druid - Fog

45.5% miss and 3.3% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Druid - Arkenphal (Elitist Jerks)

42.7% miss and 1.2% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Ithnan

53.5% miss and 15.7% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Ashra

55.0% miss and 10.3% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Klorox

53.2% miss and 11.2% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Am I missing something? It seems like Bears are substandard tanks for physical damage now.

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It look like you miss the overall mitigation. Your presented numbers show only the damage reduction by avoidance and partly by block.

The mitigation number also annoys me a little, when looking at the actual web stats. It seems it combines mitigation from block and from shields cast by Priests or Paladins. The block thing belongs to the tank while the shield spell mitigation is just another form of healing.

One interesting example would be comparing the Fog an Ashra stats. Both fights lasted 2 minutes and 51 seconds. Fog took 831,196 over the course of the fight while Ashra took 1,070,424 damage over the same amount of time. So the druid took quite less damage than the warrior.

From the Gais, Buffs & Debuffs tab i can see that Fog is using the [iTEM]Defenders Code[/iTEM] which is most likely the main reason the Druid took quit less damage.

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I would certainly be interested in seeing the overall mitigation. Can you find or calculate that from Webstats?

It looks like Ashra was the OT so please disregard that one. My concern is the difference in mitigation is too small to make up the disparity in avoidance. If I am too much of a mana sink on purely physical bosses I am not sure what that will leave me to tank. Is there something I am leaving out?

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If you add the 2.5% for PP, I got 13.9% parry, 6.5% dodge, and 8.2% miss. The dodge number is spot on, and the parry numbers seems reasonable, but the miss is a little troubling since I thought that was a well researched mechanic. Seems to me like either there's some +hit I'm getting that I'm not aware of (and doesn't show up on the character sheet), I just got a ridiculously improbable lack of misses, or the training dummy uses different mechanics than a real raid boss (which pretty much invalidates everything else in the test). I suppose the 9% number we're all used to could be wrong, but I find that pretty unlikely.

There's a hit rating topic over at the hunter section (Link) where the same observation is being made: apparently there is an 8% chance to miss on the heroic target dummy.

The possible explanations of this seem limited:

  • Heroic target dummy's deliberately work different from raidbosses (perhaps a 1% miss chance that cannot be covered with +hit?)
  • Heroic target dummy's are currently bugged
  • Chance to miss has been changed by Blizz

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There's a hit rating topic over at the hunter section (Link) where the same observation is being made: apparently there is an 8% chance to miss on the heroic target dummy.

The possible explanations of this seem limited:

  • Heroic target dummy's deliberately work different from raidbosses (perhaps a 1% miss chance that cannot be covered with +hit?)
  • Heroic target dummy's are currently bugged
  • Chance to miss has been changed by Blizz

Thanks, I was hoping there was some more discussion about this. Looks like several people are reporting 0 misses with ~8% +hit on real bosses now. Not quite 100% definitive yet since the only data I've seen on real bosses comes from hunters, but it certainly looks like they changed the miss chance to 8%.

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Pardon me if this is the wrong thread to post to, I will move it if you have a suggestion of a better thread.

I'm having some concerns about Feral tanking. I did some browsing of Wowwebstats and found the following.

All from 25man Patchwerk, all Main tanks:

Druid - Fog

45.5% miss and 3.3% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Druid - Arkenphal (Elitist Jerks)

42.7% miss and 1.2% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Ithnan

53.5% miss and 15.7% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Ashra

55.0% miss and 10.3% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Warrior - Klorox

53.2% miss and 11.2% mitigated

Wow Web Stats

Am I missing something? It seems like Bears are substandard tanks for physical damage now.

You're comparing apples to oranges with those links. First you claim all the links are for main tanks, but that is not the case. Of the 5 tanks listed, only Arkenphal and Ashra are taking Hateful strikes (notice the larger average damage per hit, 18k for the druid, and 21k for the warrior), the remainder are MT as their damage intake is lower. Main tank will in general take 8-10k average hit and the OT will take 16-26k damage. The reality of this fight is that the OT takes the most damage because of how hard Hateful strikes hits. The OT is where you want to place your strongest tank.

After my guild did this fight I dug around and compared how I held up with some of the other guilds on the server through high armor, I by far took the least amount of damage. 16k average damage compared to 22k average damage by the other tanks, 1 druid and 1 warrior.

This kinda made me feel good. From the reports, SF and DotD's Patchwerk kills, the average hit from Hateful strikes on their OTs was about 5-6k per hit higher compared to us.

DotD (Praka/Warrior): 22,248

Wow Web Stats

SF (Crunchies/Druid): 21,322

Wow Web Stats

UP (Blazefire/Druid): 16,204

Wow Web Stats

SF and DotD took on Average 4.3 million damage on their tanks, while between Taigi and I we only took 2.9 million.

While my dodge was a little lower than the other two OTs you listed, I took less damage than their tanks when you consider our fight was well over a minute longer AND we only had 1 OT to soak hateful strikes. it just goes to show that druids aren't substandard tanks.

~1.55million damage on OTs for Arkenphal/Gorek for a 3:06 minute fight

~1.45million damage on OTs for Ashra/Saba for a 2:51 minute fight

~1.68million damage on OT for Blazefire for a 4:16 minute fight

Basically, if the fight is still heavy physical damage, AC is king, which druids have the most of.

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That is reassuring to hear. The avoidance gap is so large it was disconcerting. Have youworked out how the upcoming changes are going to effect you. I originally read it was a buff but there seems to be some concern now that it will be a nerf.

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That is reassuring to hear. The avoidance gap is so large it was disconcerting. Have youworked out how the upcoming changes are going to effect you. I originally read it was a buff but there seems to be some concern now that it will be a nerf.

The best way to see how the change will effect you would be to download Rawr and feed it your armory data. Then go to options and select 'Wow 3.0.4' Armor Mode.

In my case with my current gear i'll drop from 35224 armor to 33380 armor. But I have Defender's Code, an armor neck, cloak and staff and dual level 80 armor rings, so i'm about the worst case scenario here. I'm hoping I can increase the average ilevel of my leather gear a little before the patch to soften the blow.

If you have stacked armor on accesories but haven't been fortunate enough to get defender's code yet, expect to see little change. If you havent' stacked armor on accessories (why??) and don't have armor trinkets, expect to get buffed.

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Regarding our physical Migitation on Patchwerk, it's still very much superior to warriors. This is me MTing Patchwerk 2 weeks ago, and this is Malm MTing patch last week. The difference in average hits isn't that large, which is mainly due to block. As you can see Malm blocked 165k damage, if you'd add that his average hit taken is 9152 vs mine 7280. Now if you take into account his block and avoidance, Malm comes out slightly on top here with regards to least damage taken if the fights were equal length, because Patchwerk does alot of relatively small hits, which makes block quite strong.

Now this is Diawo OTing Patchwerk 2 weeks ago, and this is me OTing Patchwerk last week. The difference is quite obviously, 16k average hits taken by me vs 21k by Diawo. Add to that the fact druids have alot more health and are much much easier to use as a single OT compared to using a single warrior OT. Note that in that last example, I'm on 50% avoidance and both Diawo and Malm are on 53%, not a very large difference.

Where we fall behind is rapid small hits due to block, and we compensate by pulling ahead on bosses that hit really really hard. All in all I'd say we're in fairly good shape.

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We tried having our warrior MT as the first Hateful tank last week and the druid Hateful tank as the MT. It was still doable, but it was a noticeable difference for the healers. Much as Abridix says, the druid may take slightly more hits, but the average value of those really large hits is much lower. For us it was 23k on the warrior compared to 15k on the druid. It's very noticeable as a healer when the tank drops to 65% hp and when the tank drops to 35% hp. Both are entirely healable, but I'd 100% rather have a bear as the first Hateful tank.

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