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RareBeast

Feral Druid Numbers (updated for 3.2.2)

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That is reassuring to hear. The avoidance gap is so large it was disconcerting. Have youworked out how the upcoming changes are going to effect you. I originally read it was a buff but there seems to be some concern now that it will be a nerf.

Basically as I understood it, unless you were best in slot AC trinkets, rings, cloaks, then it would be a slight buff, otherwise a small nerf. So for most 25 man raiding druids, a small nerf and for the more casual players, a small buff.

The changes should be a buff for any druid not in full Naxx 25 gear (and I'm pretty sure that means ALL druids for the moment). One of the reasons we are announcing this change early is so you can make your preparations accordingly. A druid with every possible item from Naxx 25-level content loses about 3700 armor, but to be honest, those armor trinkets and weapons were so insanely good that they were likely going to be nerfed anyway.

Above quote taken from MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Upcoming Druid Changes, Part III

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I am curious as to what armor numbers you guys have in order to get the hateful strikes down to 16k average. I was primary OT last night for our patchwerk25 kill, and the average was ~20k. I do not have defenders code or an AC neck, and only 154 armor on my cloak, so my armor sits at about 29k in bear - is defenders code that big of a difference? And post armor change, with the speculative numbers from rawr2.1.3 I actually lose a touch of armor as it is.

I only ask because I am wondering if there is another debuff on patchwerk that my raid is missing that is bringing your numbers down so far. I was perfectly healable - 45k health buffed meant I took the vast majority of hatefuls - but making it easier on our healers is still a good idea and I would like to validate that it was your mitigation that brought those numbers down so far, and not another factor.

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so my armor sits at about 29k in bear - is defenders code that big of a difference?

In a word, yes. 29K is very low.

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I am curious as to what armor numbers you guys have in order to get the hateful strikes down to 16k average. I was primary OT last night for our patchwerk25 kill, and the average was ~20k. I do not have defenders code or an AC neck, and only 154 armor on my cloak, so my armor sits at about 29k in bear - is defenders code that big of a difference? And post armor change, with the speculative numbers from rawr2.1.3 I actually lose a touch of armor as it is.

I only ask because I am wondering if there is another debuff on patchwerk that my raid is missing that is bringing your numbers down so far. I was perfectly healable - 45k health buffed meant I took the vast majority of hatefuls - but making it easier on our healers is still a good idea and I would like to validate that it was your mitigation that brought those numbers down so far, and not another factor.

I don't have defenders code and I got to 32k Armor fully Raid buffed. This did not include a lot of T7 or something this mainly pre Naxx.

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Offtanking Patchwerk25 last night I took average hit of 16500. Wow Web Stats

Armor is in the 37-38k range, but that does not include the 25% armor buff that was up a lot. Note that I'm tanking with The Undeath Carrier since I have had no luck with the armor tanking staffs. Using one of those, I'm guessing I'd easily end up below 16k avg hits.

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I am curious as to what armor numbers you guys have in order to get the hateful strikes down to 16k average. I was primary OT last night for our patchwerk25 kill, and the average was ~20k. I do not have defenders code or an AC neck, and only 154 armor on my cloak, so my armor sits at about 29k in bear - is defenders code that big of a difference? And post armor change, with the speculative numbers from rawr2.1.3 I actually lose a touch of armor as it is.

I only ask because I am wondering if there is another debuff on patchwerk that my raid is missing that is bringing your numbers down so far. I was perfectly healable - 45k health buffed meant I took the vast majority of hatefuls - but making it easier on our healers is still a good idea and I would like to validate that it was your mitigation that brought those numbers down so far, and not another factor.

Head:[item]Thunderheart Cover[/item]

Neck:[item]Shadowseeker's Pendant[/item]

Shoulders:[item]Sprinting Shoulderpads[/item]

Chest:[item]Tunic of Dislocation[/item]

Waist:[item]Thunderheart Waistguard[/item]

Legs:[item]Gored Hide Legguards[/item]

Feet:[item]Thunderheart Treads[/item]

Wrist:[item]Thunderheart Wristguards[/item]

Hands:[item]Handwraps of Preserved History[/item]

Finger1:[item]Ring of the Stalwart Protector[/item]

Finger2:[item]Ring of Ancestral Protectors[/item]

Trinket1:[item]Offering of Sacrifice[/item]

Trinket2:[item]Defender's Code[/item]

Back:[item]Cloak of the Shadowed Sun[/item]

MainHand:[item]Enraged Feral Staff[/item]

Ranged:[item]Idol of Terror[/item]

Unbuffed Stats:

Health: 25136.7

Armor: 33886.66

Dodge: 32.27%

Miss: 4.85%

Mitigation: 71.02%

Total Mitigation: 81.78%

Damage Taken: 18.22%

Buffed Stats (Totems, BoS, Kings, Devotion Aura, Mark, Fort, Shouts):

Health: 34474.92

Armor: 37462.34

Dodge: 38.43%

Miss: 4.85%

Mitigation: 73.75%

Total Mitigation: 85.11%

Damage Taken: 14.89%

Stacking HP isn't necessarilly the best thing to do. If you sacrifice too much AC for HP, all you do is become a damage sponge and it kills your healers mana faster. In my setup, despite having ~10k less health than you, since I take about 5K less damage it works and I can still survive 2 HS without a heal *most* of the time, should healer timing slip up. Same as you with the extra health you have, but just a lot more mana intense. How many healers did you guys use for the fight btw?

Regarding debuffs, make sure Thunderclap or Infected Wounds is up and then Demo shout. If you have hunters, scorpid sting or a Moonkin with Insect swarm. Note however that sting or swarm don't reduce damage, just chance to get hit.

edit: I forgot, pop Barksin every time its up, while timing it out as best you can to make sure its available for the last 5% when he enrages.

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Unbuffed Stats:

Health: 25136.7

Armor: 33886.66

Dodge: 32.27%

Miss: 4.85%

Mitigation: 71.02%

Total Mitigation: 81.78%

Damage Taken: 18.22%

Buffed Stats (Totems, BoS, Kings, Devotion Aura, Mark, Fort, Shouts):

Health: 34474.92

Armor: 37462.34

Dodge: 38.43%

Miss: 4.85%

Mitigation: 73.75%

Total Mitigation: 85.11%

Damage Taken: 14.89%

How do you add up to 85% mitigation??

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I made up a character sheet in Rawr that was about what he had for dodge and armor and it shows what he posted for damage taken and mitigation/total mitigation. I believe somehting is going on with the amount of Dodge/miss to show it as mitigation but I do not believe that it is the same sort of mitigation as armor/PotP/BoS. I could be wrong.

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Sounds good, but without Barskin, he has 76.9%

The cap of 75% is only for pure armor mitigation or total?

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The 75% cap is for pure armor mitigation. Otherwise, Protector of the Pack (and Blessing of Sanctuary, but PotP is the big one) would do nothing against physical attacks past 63% mitigation from armor (assuming additive, or some other similar number otherwise), which is clearly not the case.

[edit] I know PotP is multiplicative, I was just trying to lazily demonstrate a point without doing the full math behind it. :P

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The cap of 75% is only for pure armor mitigation or total?
Pure armor mitigation.

Rawr computes total mitigation as total damage taken as a percentage of incoming damage. Essentially, take mitigation values and then multiply it by the avoidance percentage, and you'll get 'total' mitigation.

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Unbuffed Stats:

Health: 25136.7

Armor: 33886.66

Dodge: 32.27%

Miss: 4.85%

Mitigation: 71.02%

Total Mitigation: 81.78%

Damage Taken: 18.22%

Buffed Stats (Totems, BoS, Kings, Devotion Aura, Mark, Fort, Shouts):

Health: 34474.92

Armor: 37462.34

Dodge: 38.43%

Miss: 4.85%

Mitigation: 73.75%

Total Mitigation: 85.11%

Damage Taken: 14.89%

Stacking HP isn't necessarilly the best thing to do. If you sacrifice too much AC for HP, all you do is become a damage sponge and it kills your healers mana faster. In my setup, despite having ~10k less health than you, since I take about 5K less damage it works and I can still survive 2 HS without a heal *most* of the time, should healer timing slip up. Same as you with the extra health you have, but just a lot more mana intense. How many healers did you guys use for the fight btw?

Yeah, we did not have problems actually killing the boss (I think we used 7 healers overall, with two paladins bacon-ing me and healing our MT/second OT), I was just looking to optimize. I am now wearing my tank set, which you can see has given me no luck in a high armor cloak/neck/defenders code, and several of the items there were post patchwerk when I obtained them - Gatekeeper specifically, but I believe the pants as well.

The interesting part is that according to rawr my buffed damage taken is actually very slightly lower then yours - 14.87 with my current gear set - where my unbuffed is slightly higher (18.23%) - with my new AC of 30400unbuffed / 34kish buffed. I do not have a WWS of this week's patchwerk kill to determine the hateful DPS on me however. Some (*coughneckcough*) of my current gear choices were as much for threat as anything however, as the mages keep whining that my threat forces them to actually need salv/invis/etc.

Also, rawr adds in the 12% from PoTP as well as dodge to calculate the average damage you take over the fight - smaller sample sizes will give you slightly different actual numbers (assuming rawr has 100% correct values for the input math).

(edit to clarify damage taken numbers)

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The 75% cap is for pure armor mitigation. Otherwise, Protector of the Pack (and Blessing of Sanctuary, but PotP is the big one) would do nothing against physical attacks past 63% mitigation from armor (assuming additive, or some other similar number otherwise), which is clearly not the case.

Actually PotP is not additive but multiplicative. To get 75% of mitigation with PotP, you need 71.5% pure armor mitigation.

X + (1 - X) * 0.12 = 0.75 => 0.715

But since the 75% hard cap is for pure armor mitigation, we can get higher:

0.75 + (1 - 0.75) * 0.12 = 78%

If my calculations are right, the max mitigation we can get by armor and PotP is 78%.

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Yeah, we did not have problems actually killing the boss (I think we used 7 healers overall, with two paladins bacon-ing me and healing our MT/second OT), I was just looking to optimize. I am now wearing my tank set, which you can see has given me no luck in a high armor cloak/neck/defenders code, and several of the items there were post patchwerk when I obtained them - Gatekeeper specifically, but I believe the pants as well.

The interesting part is that according to rawr my buffed damage taken is actually very slightly lower then yours - 14.87 with my current gear set - where my unbuffed is slightly higher (18.23%) - with my new AC of 30400unbuffed / 34kish buffed. I do not have a WWS of this week's patchwerk kill to determine the hateful DPS on me however. Some (*coughneckcough*) of my current gear choices were as much for threat as anything however, as the mages keep whining that my threat forces them to actually need salv/invis/etc.

Also, rawr adds in the 12% from PoTP as well as dodge to calculate the average damage you take over the fight - smaller sample sizes will give you slightly different actual numbers (assuming rawr has 100% correct values for the input math).

(edit to clarify damage taken numbers)

Did you have Blessing of Sanctuary? That helps quite a bit with damage reduction. Like I said, also make sure demo shout stays up. Both of these will reduce incoming damage. Regarding tanking/healing this fight, we've been short on healers since the expansion so on our kill from last night I actually had to heal and we struggled a bit since our Hateful Strike tank was a warrior and he was taking more damage than I was the week before. Also we had 1 paladin last night verse 2 the previous week. Each paladin with Beacon of Light is like having a second healer for the fight. What we found worked the best for us was to only have 1 OT and focus 90% of the healing on them. Our Paladin would actually beacon the MT and then heal the OT instead. We put 5 healers (Priest, Shaman, Paladin) on the OT and 2 healers (both druids) on the MT, but they were also rolling HoTs on the OT in addition to healing the MT. The MT only takes about ~8-10k, so between beacon and the druids, its actually pretty effortless to keep the MT up.

A few other things to help with damage reduction, if you have a paladin (not a tank) in the raid, they can use Blessing of Sacrifice and bubble themselves. I'm not sure what their cool downs are, so I don't know the frequency is that the can do this, but either on the pull or at the enrage. If their cool down is short enough, they can do it several times a fight, like we can with barkskin.

Regarding threat, I can't even imagine that being an issue, especially if you are the OT. Since Hateful strikes only affects melee, so long as the mages/ranged aren't passing the MT, I'm pretty sure its fine if they pass you as an OT.

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Just to clarify, the threat is not an issue on patchwerk, but rather on other fights (Drakes on sarth, gothik, and a couple others where my threat is an issue due to movement/early burst dps), and is only an issue because my mages do not hold back an instant - and it is only an issue because they do not want to take the 4 seconds to invis. ;)

I did not actually have sanctuary for our last patchwerk kill, which accounts for more of the difference. The damage differential that a defenders code brings really underscores what they are trying to fix with the armor change however - that one item adds 4395 armor, which is 2.7% physical mitigation against level 83 mobs. This is almost as good as a single talent point (bosanc/potp), and I can see why they would want to nip this scaling problem in the bud.

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Regarding threat, I can't even imagine that being an issue, especially if you are the OT. Since Hateful strikes only affects melee, so long as the mages/ranged aren't passing the MT, I'm pretty sure its fine if they pass you as an OT.

My assumption is also that Hateful Strikes are still assigning a high amount of threat. At least for me, in our 10 man group I'm typically MT except on Patchwerk since it's easier on the healers to let our prot paladin main tank and I soak hatefuls. Especially on our last kill I had to ask for several hands of salvation to avoid surpassing the MT (particularly during heroism with zerking up).

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I did not actually have sanctuary for our last patchwerk kill, which accounts for more of the difference. The damage differential that a defenders code brings really underscores what they are trying to fix with the armor change however - that one item adds 4395 armor, which is 2.7% physical mitigation against level 83 mobs. This is almost as good as a single talent point (bosanc/potp), and I can see why they would want to nip this scaling problem in the bud.

4395 armor is not always 2.7% physical mitigation. The more armor you have the less % physical mitigation it grants. IE the first 4.3k armor would actually give you ~20% mitigation (rough estimate if I recall one of my cloth alts).

In any case, you are right, they are trying to make these high AC pieces non mandatory.

Regarding your threat, if you don't already, I'd recommend building a threat set that doesnt require the same level of mitigation as Patchwerk. Most bosses him like wet noodles, so you should be able to dumb down threat for those movement fights. As an example, our MT died on Heigen and I picked him up in my cat gear that has significantly less armor on it and lived without a problem. Ironically with the armor changes, this will push up a kitty druids ability to tank in since their armor should increase, so the change will be a buff for those situations.

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I've searched around and not found this, so I wanted to ask in this thread...have these numbers been re-evaluated since diminishing returns was added? In particular, the below number.

1 Agi = 0.02544 (0.027984) % Dodge

Not being a mathematician, I did a simple test to see what my numbers were at lvl 80.

Full Gear with Mark

Agi: 846

Dodge: 37.42

Naked with Mark

Agi: 131

Dodge: 18.12

Test 1: Ate food to give me 40 Agi

Full Gear

Agi: 889 (up 43)

Dodge: 38.14 (up .72)

Naked

Agi: 173 (up 42, my guess is a rounding in the UI making it different)

Dodge: 19.12 (up 1)

So at 80, with 173 agi, 1 pt of agi is worth .024% dodge.

But with 889 agi, 1 pt of agi is only worth .0167% dodge.

Test 2: I had a Prot Pally friend hit me with 10% Kings, after the food.

Full Gear

Agi: 978 (up 89)

Dodge 39.59 (up 1.45)

Naked

Agi 190 (up 17)

Dodge: 19.53 (up .41)

So the 89 pts of agi from 978 only gave me .0162 dodge each (3% less), while the 17 pts of agi from 190 gave me the same .024 (obviously there's a difference but so many digits out my ui won't show it to me), so it's logarithmic like a diminishing returns curve should be, but I don't know enough math to plot the curve and analyze it.

It also looks like Dodge Rating also scales with Agility.

Again at 80 (Mark and Food, Kings had expired):

Full Gear (without any rating pieces, so 0 Dodge Rating)

Agi: 750

Dodge: 31.81

Add an 84 Rating Trinket, dodge goes up 1.65% (.0196/pt of dodge)

Naked

Agi: 140

Dodge: 18.49

Add an 84 Rating Trinket, dodge goes up 2.11% (.0251/pt of dodge)

So both Dodge Rating and Agility scale on Agility. Anyone done the math on this? I ask because there's got to be an optimal combination of defense, agility, and dodge to give the maximum amount of mitigation, using gems, enchants, etc.

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So at 80, with 173 agi, 1 pt of agi is worth .024% dodge.

But with 889 agi, 1 pt of agi is only worth .0167% dodge.

Wow. That is a massive change in the value of Agility. I knew diminishing returns had been implemented, but I didn't realise how much it diminished. From needing ~40 Agi for 1% dodge to needing ~60 for 1% at this stage of the expansion is a big change. It'll really hurt towards the end i'd imagine - and makes our gearing options as tanks even slimmer. What do we spend our item budget on as we increase ilvls? Looks feasible for DefenseRating to become our main stackable stat as we approach the end of WotLK unless Blizzard changes some mechanic somewhere.

Thanks for those figures - real food for thought. Although i'm not really sure how to include that in my original post without overcomplicating it.

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Wow. That is a massive change in the value of Agility. I knew diminishing returns had been implemented, but I didn't realise how much it diminished. From needing ~40 Agi for 1% dodge to needing ~60 for 1% at this stage of the expansion is a big change. It'll really hurt towards the end i'd imagine - and makes our gearing options as tanks even slimmer. What do we spend our item budget on as we increase ilvls? Looks feasible for DefenseRating to become our main stackable stat as we approach the end of WotLK unless Blizzard changes some mechanic somewhere.

Thanks for those figures - real food for thought. Although i'm not really sure how to include that in my original post without overcomplicating it.

I'm a Project Mgr for a living, I have people who work for me to do my math, so I totally suck at it. What I need is someone who understands how to create a log curve from data points, i.e. reverse engineer the formula from the data. I can put on and take off gear, enchants, food, scrolls, pots, etc to create combinations of agility and dodge rating to give data points, but what I want is to see the 3 curves for agility, dodge, and defense, and plot them out together.

I know that there is some X where I need to stack agi before and dodge rating after, or defense after that. This is what we need now to know the best gear, I just lack the brains to do it myself.

Additionally, is it possible that there's a point where adding agility actually reduces your overall dodge? For example, +1 pt of agility slides both the dodge from agi and dodge from rating curve, is there a point down the line where the amount of the reduction is more than the amount of the increase such that every point of agility actually reduces mitigation?

Edit: OK, some data. I swapped stuff around to get several data points, no dodge rating at all, no defense in any item, just straight up agility. In the Dge/Agi, I subtracted the 10% dodge I get from talents so as to not skew the data.

[TABLE=head;sort=3d;autonumtitle=rank;width=15em]Agi|Dodge|Dge/Agi

92|17.16|0.077826087

131|18.12|0.061984733

169|19.03|0.053431953

176|19.2|0.052272727

192|19.58|0.049895833

214|20.09|0.047149533

245|20.81|0.044122449

273|21.46|0.041978022

280|21.62|0.0415

318|22.48|0.039245283

329|22.72|0.038662614

438|25.66|0.035753425

448|25.32|0.034196429

493|26.27|0.033002028

525|26.94|0.032266667

529|27.56|0.033194707

601|29.01|0.031630616

640|29.78|0.03090625

675|30.46|0.030311111

713|31.19|0.029719495

806|32.94|0.028461538

811|33.03|0.028397041

854|33.81|0.027880562

885|34.37|0.027536723[/TABLE]

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Looks feasible for DefenseRating to become our main stackable stat as we approach the end of WotLK unless Blizzard changes some mechanic somewhere.

Anything that grants you Dodge, be it Agi, Defense Rating or Dodge Rating is subject to diminishing returns based on your Dodge value, so we can't really work around it, armor is still going to be one of our most important stats.

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The formula is already known, what additional modeling are you looking for?

Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks

I read that entire thread, but my numbers didn't match, hence my confusion.

Going back over it, I see my error, I neglected to account for a druid base dodge of 4.951 (I can't get to 0 agi), so my that skewed my numbers. Making that adjustment, my numbers are close enough to his.

So feral druids (at 80) need 42 agi for 1% dodge and 40 Dodge Rating for the same 1%.

And it's not diminishing returns with regard to agility, but only level, so Blizz is currently not discouraging druids from stacking agility.

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Wow. That is a massive change in the value of Agility. I knew diminishing returns had been implemented, but I didn't realise how much it diminished. From needing ~40 Agi for 1% dodge to needing ~60 for 1% at this stage of the expansion is a big change. It'll really hurt towards the end i'd imagine - and makes our gearing options as tanks even slimmer. What do we spend our item budget on as we increase ilvls? Looks feasible for DefenseRating to become our main stackable stat as we approach the end of WotLK unless Blizzard changes some mechanic somewhere.

Nope, agility will probably remain the best avoidance stat through this expansion, and armor (not multiplied by bear form) will be the best total mitigation+avoidance stat in terms of item cost for all gear levels (~7 non-multiplied armor is equivalent to 1 agility but is half the item cost).

It takes 73.2% dodge (on your character sheet after DR) to make defense better than agility, which would require over 4000 agility to achieve. Details on this and other crossover points are in my post in feral_pre-raid_tank_gear. Earlier posts by Grubnik and others also contain good information.

One key thing a lot of people seem to be missing is that even after the armor changes, armor items will remain the best use of the item budget as long they don't contain a lot of worthless stats. Something that is a few tiers higher with no armor may be better, but armor items will beat non-armor items by a fair bit when all else is equal. It just won't be as monstrous a difference as it is now (when you can basically ignore every other stat unless the armor amounts are very close)

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Nope, agility will probably remain the best avoidance stat through this expansion.

Dead on the money, the close second is Expertise; which is also being overlooked by many Ferals.

One key thing a lot of people seem to be missing is that even after the armor changes, armor items will remain the best use of the item budget as long they don't contain a lot of worthless stats.

Again.

The amount of armor on trinkets, rings and necks is not insignificant this expansion and even without our multiplier such items will likely be best in slot for mitigation. Defense is a poor stat for Feral Druids and will remain so unless we gain some sort of artificial ability scaling such as an increase to Barkskin/Protector that is defense based.

I personally look for agility and armor in equal doses with expertise just behind the two, there is quite a bit of gear that satisfies these and I'm happy with the numbers I'm seeing while tanking.

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