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Arentios

Balance Glyphs

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Another balance druid and myself have been going back and forth on what will be the best raiding glyphs for patch 3.1. With all the Starfall changes to the cd which will make Starfall a more valid source of improved burst damage and natures grace procs for balance druids rotation. I feel like the Starfire glyph and Insect swarm glyphs are a must have for raiding though it seems I may drop the Moonfire glyph and take up the Starfall glyph to try and max overall damage.

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I would drop the Moonfire Glyph because it is cast so frequently anyway that the initial damage when it critical strikes which is more often than not seems to have greater overall damage than its increased tick damage. At least testing it out it seems so thus far.

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If more often than not, your moonfire does not last the full duration, then yes, unglyphing moonfire is a good idea.

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As the Starfall glyph is reducing the cool down on Starfall for 3.1 to one minute may make it a better glyph than Moonfire. Because Starfall procs Natures grace to improve the haste of the other damage spells cast. Unless the Insect swarm glyph should be dropped instead of the Moonfire glyph.

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I would drop the Moonfire Glyph because it is cast so frequently anyway that the initial damage when it critical strikes which is more often than not seems to have greater overall damage than its increased tick damage. At least testing it out it seems so thus far.

On this, it is important to remember that the frequency of casting MF is not really an issue. It is the number of ticks., If you glyph MF and it ticks 3 times the damage from a non-glyphed MF balnce out. Every tick over the 3rd is a DPS gain when Moonfire is glyphed.

Now if this is enough to keep it above a 60 second Starfall I do not know, but just because you cast MF frequently does not mean the glyph loses worth.

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By casting Moonfire frequently you mean your clipping your dots? That in itself is a dps loss, not only that, you have the Starfire glyph, therefore, every Starfire is increasing your MF duration, making Moonfire glyph that much more powerful. SF and MF glyphs work well together. Depending on how 4 set t8 works out, maybe Starfall will overtake Insect Swarm glyph but obviously, its way too early to predict at the moment.

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By casting Moonfire frequently you mean your clipping your dots? That in itself is a dps loss, not only that, you have the Starfire glyph, therefore, every Starfire is increasing your MF duration, making Moonfire glyph that much more powerful. SF and MF glyphs work well together. Depending on how 4 set t8 works out, maybe Starfall will overtake Insect Swarm glyph but obviously, its way too early to predict at the moment.

Uhhh. The 4T8 bonus will have no effect on how good of a glyph IS is. The two have nothing to do with each other. As it stands in 3.1, the IS glyph will be worth ~double the Starfall glyph before taking into account that Starfire will greatly increase the uptime of NG during its duration, but that will be a fairly minor benefit.

[edit]Nyr is correct that the biggest contender for swapping out is the Moonfire Glyph, which still produces slightly more DPS than the Starfall glyph for a one-MF rotation. For a 2-MF rotation, you'd swap out the Starfire Glyph (since you generally wouldn't need the extra ticks).

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What exactly is a 1-MF or 2-MF rotation? And what I meant was, as a spell, 4t8 seems like Blizz's way of giving IS a usefulness, without that set bonus, would IS be worth using in a Lunar Eclipse rotation 3.1? And if not, thats what I was leaning towards by suggesting that the IS glyph may not be as useful.

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What exactly is a 1-MF or 2-MF rotation? And what I meant was, as a spell, 4t8 seems like Blizz's way of giving IS a usefulness, without that set bonus, would IS be worth using in a Lunar Eclipse rotation 3.1? And if not, thats what I meant by the IS glyphs usefulness.

IS was worth using without the glyph already, though it was pretty low on the totem pole. The glyph made it a no-brainer. And now, in 3.1, IS is being buffed. So yeah, you could drop the Glyph, except that a glyph that was worth ~80 DPS is now worth ~110 due to the buffs, so is even more mandatory.

1- and 2-MF refer to how many MFs you cast per Eclipse.

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By "per-Eclipse", are you referring to the whole rotation from one Eclipse proc to the next or just until the end of the Eclipse?

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By "per-Eclipse", are you referring to the whole rotation from one Eclipse proc to the next or just until the end of the Eclipse?

Whole rotation.

As far I as know, the theory of optimal Moonfire refreshing has never been worked out fully; it's pretty messy. Some of us have made posts on it before on these threads. But assuming you're trying to maximize Eclipse uptime rather than waste any time refreshing DoT's during Eclipse or during the Eclipse-proc phase, there are generally two options:

1) Cast Moonfire once during each Eclipse cooldown, either at the beginning or at the end (unclear which is better).

2) Cast Moonfire at both the beginning and end of each Eclipse cooldown (at the times when you should be refreshing IS). This clips the MF's and gives 100% uptime.

The addition of a new useful Glyph (Starfall) in 3.1 comparatively favors (2), as the value of Glyph of Starfire is mostly wasted, so the opportunity of cost of the new Glyph is minimal. I'm not sure which Glyph represents more DPS in (1) (Starfire or Moonfire); it would be easy to compute if I had WrathCalcs in front of me.

A bit long for a simple question, but I figure people are going to ask this a lot.

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Whole rotation.

As far I as know, the theory of optimal Moonfire refreshing has never been worked out fully; it's pretty messy. Some of us have made posts on it before on these threads. But assuming you're trying to maximize Eclipse uptime rather than waste any time refreshing DoT's during Eclipse or during the Eclipse-proc phase, there are generally two options:

1) Cast Moonfire once during each Eclipse cooldown, either at the beginning or at the end (unclear which is better).

2) Cast Moonfire at both the beginning and end of each Eclipse cooldown (at the times when you should be refreshing IS). This clips the MF's and gives 100% uptime.

The addition of a new useful Glyph (Starfall) in 3.1 comparatively favors (2), as the value of Glyph of Starfire is mostly wasted, so the opportunity of cost of the new Glyph is minimal. I'm not sure which Glyph represents more DPS in (1) (Starfire or Moonfire); it would be easy to compute if I had WrathCalcs in front of me.

A bit long for a simple question, but I figure people are going to ask this a lot.

Starfire glyph ends up being better in (1), by about a third again as much. For my current gear in 3.1, (1) SF: 110 DPS, MF: 75 DPS. (2) SF: 70 DPS, MF: 90 DPS. IS Glyph is worth ~120 DPS either way, all assuming you use IS, MF, SF glyphs.

IS, MF, SF total DPS, (1): 4565; (2) 4602

IS, MF, Fall total DPS, (1): 4521; (2) 4600

IS, SF, Fall total DPS, (1): 4556; (2) 4576

Note that these show the low end of the benefit for Starfall Glyph, as I divide the damage of Starfall over its cooldown to add its DPS. Hence it models a fight where Starfall comes off cooldown just when the boss dies. If it came off cooldown 10s before the boss died, the benefit would be much larger.

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Thanks Adoriele for the comparison.

I assume that your calculation is based on a best in slot equipped moonkin with 4T7 items.

I also assume that it not includes the changes to the spell coefficient of IS.

Could you please clarify this.

>Druid T8 Balance 2P Bonus -- Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 6%.

>Druid T8 Balance 4P Bonus -- Each time your Insect Swarm deals damage, you have a chance to make your next Starfire cast within until >cancelled instant.

I have some questions to our math experts in regard to the forthcoming new T8 Boni and their influence on glyphs:

1. T8 does not give any benefit to IS as 2T7 did. On the other hand IS spell-coefficient is increased. Does the later outweigh the 2T7 Bonus and makes IS glyph more valuable?

2. Does the relative value of Starfall glyph increases because it supports procs of eclipse and therefore support 2T8 bonus?

In summary, which impact would have an exchange of T7 by T8 items on the relative value of glyphs. Any ideas?

(assumed that the aforementioned Boni on PTR hit LIFE server)

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Thanks Adoriele for the comparison.

I assume that your calculation is based on a best in slot equipped moonkin with 4T7 items.

I also assume that it not includes the changes to the spell coefficient of IS.

Could you please clarify this.

>Druid T8 Balance 2P Bonus -- Increases the bonus granted by Eclipse for Starfire and Wrath by 6%.

>Druid T8 Balance 4P Bonus -- Each time your Insect Swarm deals damage, you have a chance to make your next Starfire cast within until >cancelled instant.

I have some questions to our math experts in regard to the forthcoming new T8 Boni and their influence on glyphs:

1. T8 does not give any benefit to IS as 2T7 did. On the other hand IS spell-coefficient is increased. Does the later outweigh the 2T7 Bonus and makes IS glyph more valuable?

2. Does the relative value of Starfall glyph increases because it supports procs of eclipse and therefore support 2T8 bonus?

In summary, which impact would have an exchange of T7 by T8 items on the relative value of glyphs. Any ideas?

(assumed that the aforementioned Boni on PTR hit LIFE server)

Bagh, apparently I forgot to enable 4T7 (I'd been testing out the bonuses from T8, forgot to switch back to current). It's using the 3.1 engine for NG, increased IS coefficient, etc., though. Here's the numbers with 4T7 equipped (note, this is also not BiS gear, I have quite a few upgrades left to get. I still barely break 4500 on Patch, as an idea of where I am):

(1) MF: 76.66, SF: 111.57, IS: 120.10

(2) MF: 90.67, SF: 59.88, IS: 120.10

Totals

IS, MF, SF: (1) 4730.31, (2) 4752.22

IS, MF, Fall: (1) 4687.18, (2) 4760.78

IS, SF, Fall: (1) 4722.09, (2) 4729.99

MF, SF, Fall: (1) 4678.65, (2) 4700.56

Starfall has no effect on Eclipse procs, so I'm not sure what that's about. Actually, the only direct impact any of the Tier bonuses has on Glyphs is 2T7, and only if the 30% from the Glyph multiplies with the 10% from the bonus, which is the assumption WC makes.

As for relative value of 4T7 and 2T8, 4T7 wins by far. 4T7 is worth 149.79 DPS, and 2T8 is worth 67.10 DPS. This only takes into account the value of the bonuses themselves, though, while T8 will have better stats than T7, which will offset some of that difference, though likely not near enough. On the other hand, preliminary calcs of 4T8 using a proc rate of 5% (just a guess) show it giving 300 DPS on its own, so I'd be very surprised if we see that bonus make it live. If it does, we'll have the same problem we had with 4T5.

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Starfall has no effect on Eclipse procs

Starfall will increase uptime of the new non-consumed 3.1 NG. Might be best to align it with the Eclipse-proc phase for faster Wraths and reduced proc time. Or it might be best to use it during the Eclipse CD to improve NG uptime of the uneclipsed Starfires (it's probably a waste to use it during Eclipse).

In either case, it might be optimal use it once every 2 cycles instead of once every 60 seconds (as it's a pretty small delay).

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Starfall will increase uptime of the new non-consumed 3.1 NG. Might be best to align it with the Eclipse-proc phase for faster Wraths and reduced proc time). Might also be best to use it once every 2 cycles instead of once every 60 seconds (as it's a pretty small delay).

Eh, Wrath is going to have a high enough uptime on NG, that using Fall during the proc-phase will be a waste. Better to enhance the ICD phase of SF, which has a drastically lower uptime.

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Eh, Wrath is going to have a high enough uptime on NG, that using Fall during the proc-phase will be a waste. Better to enhance the ICD phase of SF, which has a drastically lower uptime.

Yeah, I just edited to add this. Point is, Starfall will probably best be used at a certain point in the cycle since the 30+x cycle lines up close to a 60/90s cooldown.

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Yeah, I just edited to add this. Point is, Starfall will probably best be used at a certain point in the cycle since the 30+x cycle lines up close to a 60/90s cooldown.

Yeah. I'm toying with adding options to WC to allow for sustained vs. specific fights. I.E. giving an expected length of fight field and doing more rigorous fitting of things to determine exact values. Would muck with ISVs, though, so I don't want to force it.

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Starfall has no effect on Eclipse procs

I was thinking of the additional crits that starfall causes which might reduce the average number of necessary wraths needed to trigger eclipse or seen from the other side: crits of starfall should increase the total uptime of eclipse per given time frame.

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I was thinking of the additional crits that starfall causes which might reduce the average number of necessary wraths needed to trigger eclipse or seen from the other side: crits of starfall should increase the total uptime of eclipse per given time frame.

Starfall cannot proc Eclipse. Therefor it cannot reduce the number of Wraths necessary to proc Eclipse. Also, as I mentioned before, Wrath has a high enough NG uptime that Starfall cannot increase it meaningfully, so Starfall will not decrease the amount of time it takes to proc Eclipse.

Starfall has no meaningful effect on Eclipse.

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Starfall cannot proc Eclipse. Therefor it cannot reduce the number of Wraths necessary to proc Eclipse. Also, as I mentioned before, Wrath has a high enough NG uptime that Starfall cannot increase it meaningfully, so Starfall will not decrease the amount of time it takes to proc Eclipse.

Starfall has no meaningful effect on Eclipse.

I think what he means is that Starfall guarentees consistant Nature's Grace procs, which in turn increases the amount of Starfire/Wraths casted, which then increases the chance of Eclipse procing.

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I think what he means is that Starfall guarentees consistant Nature's Grace procs, which in turn increases the amount of Starfire/Wraths casted, which then increases the chance of Eclipse procing.

No. No it doesn't. Eclipse has an ICD longer than its duration. So you have a specific "I want to proc Eclipse" phase. If you're not a moron, you're casting Wrath during that phase, because you want the Lunar Eclipse proc (yes, this will still be the case in 3.1). Wrath has ~95% NG uptime in crappy gear, and it only gets better, because you get 3 wraths per NG proc instead of the 2 SF gets. Because it's got such high uptime, you'd be stupid to use Starfall during that phase with the intention of increasing Wrath uptime. At any other time, you increase NG uptime, but cannot increase your expected time to proc Eclipse because you're in the ICD.

So. Again, and with much more feeling. Starfall will. not. increase. Eclipse. procs.

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No. No it doesn't. Eclipse has an ICD longer than its duration. So you have a specific "I want to proc Eclipse" phase. If you're not a moron, you're casting Wrath during that phase, because you want the Lunar Eclipse proc (yes, this will still be the case in 3.1). Wrath has ~95% NG uptime in crappy gear, and it only gets better, because you get 3 wraths per NG proc instead of the 2 SF gets. Because it's got such high uptime, you'd be stupid to use Starfall during that phase with the intention of increasing Wrath uptime. At any other time, you increase NG uptime, but cannot increase your expected time to proc Eclipse because you're in the ICD.

So. Again, and with much more feeling. Starfall will. not. increase. Eclipse. procs.

Oh I know that, I wasn't making a statement, I was merely interpreting what he meant because you might have taken it in a different context.

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