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Arentios

Restoration Glyphs

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The swiftmend description has been fixed.

The value of the rejuvenation glyph is straightforward to model. Assuming Nature's Splendor, if you have it proc once per rejuv, it amounts to an 8.33% healing increase (1/6 * 1/2) increasing by 8.33% every time it tics, upto a maximum of 50%. However, the condition of the proc and standard group healing behavior means that you will rarely see it proc more than once or twice. For raid healing if you spend the time to rejuv up many people after a raid damage event you may not see it at all on many of the targets. For tank healing with very spiky damage (such as Patchwerk) the value probably goes up, while for raid healing with very smooth damage (Sapphiron) the value is likely minimal.

Comparitively, assuming optimal lifebloom rolling and no banking (that is to say, you always reroll it with less than a second left on all targets), the glyph amounts to approximately a 10% mana cost reduction in lifebloom, decreasing the further from optimal your behavior ends up being on a given encounter. If you never reroll it within that last second, it becomes worthless for rolling. If you simply cast a single bloom on a target, it amounts to an 11% healing increase to the HoT portion.

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Which benefits a druid more ... seems a part timer druid has decided that I am stupid to stack Spirit which improves healing too as far as I know and can read from stats

From all other advice given via EJ - it has always said Spirit

This is a glyph discussion - this would be much more appropriate for the "Simple Questions Simple answers" thread. But, since the changes to spirit (which is a while ago now) you are much better off stacking spirit. Its what your Tier gear will give anyway.

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My information is that it doesn't affect swiftmend in any way which is pretty consistent with how swiftmend works (the actual strength of the hot is irrelevant, you can swiftmend a feral's rejuvenation and still get same result as swiftmending your own).

Ah ok, good to know.

The swiftmend description has been fixed.

The value of the rejuvenation glyph is straightforward to model. Assuming Nature's Splendor, if you have it proc once per rejuv, it amounts to an 8.33% healing increase (1/6 * 1/2) increasing by 8.33% every time it tics, upto a maximum of 50%. However, the condition of the proc and standard group healing behavior means that you will rarely see it proc more than once or twice. For raid healing if you spend the time to rejuv up many people after a raid damage event you may not see it at all on many of the targets. For tank healing with very spiky damage (such as Patchwerk) the value probably goes up, while for raid healing with very smooth damage (Sapphiron) the value is likely minimal.

Comparitively, assuming optimal lifebloom rolling and no banking (that is to say, you always reroll it with less than a second left on all targets), the glyph amounts to approximately a 10% mana cost reduction in lifebloom, decreasing the further from optimal your behavior ends up being on a given encounter. If you never reroll it within that last second, it becomes worthless for rolling. If you simply cast a single bloom on a target, it amounts to an 11% healing increase to the HoT portion.

Very interesting. Thanks for the information. Given what I've seen from my raids thus far, Lifebloom will be staying and Regrowth will replace Rejuvenation (as soon as someone on my server discovers it :( ).

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So, to reiterate, my current glyph set up:

Innervate

Swiftmend

Regrowth

This is the set up I want to be at. Unfortunately no one seems to have learned the swiftmend glyph on my server yet. :( I don't see myself replacing innervate glyph for a very long time, or ever unless the raid content changes dramatically.

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to add more data to the discussion: we just downed malygos hc (horde first on blackrock eu), the wws is here:

Wow Web Stats

it is a fight where, as you can see, rejuv is used intensly; plus, it is also a fight, where there is a lot of dmg on the raid. but still though there is a lot of dmg, and though rejuv is used a lot, the glyph just makes up only 1% of the total heal, which is ridiculous. I will wait for 2-3 more raids, but atm it looks all like switching to innervate. The other glyphs were regrowth and swiftmend.

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I'll be using Swiftmend, Regrowth and Innervate glyphs as well. To me the extra versatility of being able to throw innervate on someone who might need it even more than me and still recieve a pretty decent benefit from it myself is very useful.

I'll also be using the Glyph of Unburdened Rebirth for one of my minors, here's hoping they make one that removes the reagent requirement on Gift of the Wild too.

Anyone want to tackle a new "Raiding as a Tree" thread?

There's an absolutely fantastic thread in the Priest forum by Constantius that keeps a bunch of useful info in it. It'd be great if someone with a bit of experience could do the same for Resto here.

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I'm still rather fond of the Rejuvenation Glyph for 10mans/heroics.

It shines on Malygos and Sapph where there is plenty of raid damage, it gives me a security knowing that people should really never die to periodic damage with a RJ on them and gives me time to manage things (especially on Vortex).

For 25mans it still feels pretty useless due to the excess of heals floating around but not every Glyph is ment to be about catering to 25man raiding (ie: HT Glyph).

Regarding the new mega thread... we aren't ment to do them anymore.

Having a gear thread, a mechanics thread and a talent discussion thread all separate will keep them cleaner and easier to access for people seeking information - it was annoying having the same questions pop up every 3 pages because people didn't read more than the first and last page of the thread (and who could blame them on some threads).

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Personally I like the rejuvenation glyph quite a bit. Even if the healing numbers do stay relatively small, you can at least be assured that whenever the glyph "procs" it's extremely likely to be that the proc is very useful. Currently regrowth doesn't make a big enough portion of my healing to really justify glyphing it up, especially seeing how nourish is faster and more reliable HPS for tank healing. Innervate glyph is something I'll consider if/when my regeneration reaches such amounts that I can reliably skip using innervate on myself.

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Personally I like the rejuvenation glyph quite a bit. Even if the healing numbers do stay relatively small, you can at least be assured that whenever the glyph "procs" it's extremely likely to be that the proc is very useful. Currently regrowth doesn't make a big enough portion of my healing to really justify glyphing it up, especially seeing how nourish is faster and more reliable HPS for tank healing. Innervate glyph is something I'll consider if/when my regeneration reaches such amounts that I can reliably skip using innervate on myself.

With my current gear set my calcs indicated that casting regrowth rather than nourish was not only better HPS, but better HPM, and that was with completely ignoring the refresh of the HOT effect and Living Seed. This is most likely different with 4-set t7, but until then I see very few cases where Nourish is the best choice.

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The problem with the innervate glyph is that you're giving up too much by innervating someone else. So instead of gaining ~15k mana, you give it to someone else and end up with a gain of like 3k. The loss of 12k mana isn't something you can easily overcome with a bit of gear. It's a bit like having a shadow-priest pre 3.0 - either you have one and can spam freely and stay at 90% mana, or you don't have one, have to conserve, pot and have mana issues.

As such I chose Swiftmend, Regrowth and Lifebloom as my glyphs. The lifebloom glyph may feel a bit weak compared to NS, but that says more about the strength of that talent than on the glyph.

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With my current gear set my calcs indicated that casting regrowth rather than nourish was not only better HPS, but better HPM, and that was with completely ignoring the refresh of the HOT effect and Living Seed. This is most likely different with 4-set t7, but until then I see very few cases where Nourish is the best choice.

Regrowth is better HPS and HPM if you don't require *reliable* results. Problem is how big a part of regrowth's HPS is dictated by crits. A crit not only heals for 50% more (~100% more with living seed) but also speeds the next regrowth by 33%. Trouble is there's such a huge variation there. If regrowth has 4000 non-crit healing then in 6 seconds you might get 12k healing from 3 noncrits (3*4000) or you might get 32k healing from 4 crits (4*8000)*. On beta I lost tanks a few too many times by simply having poor luck with RNG while spamming regrowth (nourish still cost too much at that time to use though).

I'd argue that refreshing the hot is detrimental effect to spamming regrowth - you only need one cast per 20-30 seconds to maintain that, I'm not questioning that this particular cast wouldn't be worth it. During the above 6 second window regrowth spam will prevent regrowth ticks while nourish will allow those to continue (2 ticks of, say, 800 each).

Numbers change if you get regrowth glyph, but that comes at an additional cost of a glyph slot. Even with regrowth glyph I believe that nourish has a better guaranteed rate though it's certainly cutting close.

* I slightly simplified there, first cast of course depends on what happened before the time window and last one affects what happens after it. Chained regrowth crits are also likely to waste living seeds due to overwriting them.

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In choosing my glyphs, I'm really trying to think about how they work together, too. You can't just look at them in a vacuum. I have the improved Regrowth glyph currently and love it (a timely Regrowth refresh crit for almost 8k and the ~2400 Living Seed proc immediately following it has already saved the tank on some bad pulls in heroics that should have been a wipe). The problem I have with it by itself is that if Swiftmend chooses Regrowth over Rejuv due to the time remaining on the two HoTs, I lose the effect of the Regrowth glyph. The Swiftmend glyph (once I find someone on my server who has it) will completely eliminate that problem, strengthening the Regrowth glyph in the process. The interplay between these two glyphs is not to be overlooked.

The Innervate vs. Lifebloom question I'm still undecided on. I've definitely been using my Innervates on myself in heroics, so mana is somewhat of a concern. Could I use my innervate on other mana users and still come out with enough, with the glyph? Maybe. I certainly don't need the self-Innervate bonus from the glyph. But there's also the sort of "hidden bonus" to the Lifebloom glyph. Yes, the most direct benefits of the LB glyph are the extra throughput from having more time between refreshes and the extra HPM from getting an extra tick out of the cast. However, with just Nature's Splendor, the extra OO5SR regen I get during lulls in healing is significant. The difference between one second of OO5SR regen with a 7 second refresh cycle and three seconds of it with a 9 second cycle means that the last couple mobs of any pull are almost pure regen time for me, and I get extra regen time on bosses when the tank gets a string of dodges and parries. If the extra second on Lifebloom yields at least 20 extra seconds every five minutes of full OO5SR regen, then it's not only given you back as much mana as the Innervate glyph would, but it's also allowed for more throughput in situations when you do need it.

Right now I'm leaning toward Regrowth/Swiftmend (the obvious choices) and Lifebloom, because of that.

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Has anyone tried multiples of glyps such as innervate, rejuvenation, lifebloom, or regrowth? I know a druid that was running two rebirth glyphs so that when he battle rezed someone, they would come back with full health. It would be interesting to see how the mechanics of running multiple glyphs affect it.

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Glyph effects do not stack when you equip two of the same one. The fact that they're not unique-equipped is unfortunate, but having two of the same wastes a glyph slot.

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to add more data to the discussion: we just downed malygos hc (horde first on blackrock eu), the wws is here:

Wow Web Stats

it is a fight where, as you can see, rejuv is used intensly; plus, it is also a fight, where there is a lot of dmg on the raid. but still though there is a lot of dmg, and though rejuv is used a lot, the glyph just makes up only 1% of the total heal, which is ridiculous. I will wait for 2-3 more raids, but atm it looks all like switching to innervate. The other glyphs were regrowth and swiftmend.

Although you may be right and the rejuv glyph may not be worth it, percentage of your healing done isn't always the most accurate measure of usefulness. The rejuv glyph only takes effect in tight situations - when the target is under 50% health. If someone is already under 50%, there's a good chance any extra healing is welcome.

If I had to choose between 2 skills (purely theoretical situation) - one of them was 5% of my total healing but was only ever used to bring the tank from 90% to 100% health, and the other one was only 1% of my total healing but it kicked in whenever the tank was low on health, I would choose the latter. Total healing done isn't always the best measure.

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Unless I'm mistaken glyphs are generally supposed to be worth about 1-2 talent points while talent points are worth 1-2% more damage/healing. This is a bit more difficult to measure for glyphs with both negative and positive effects while some provide benefits difficult to measure. 1% healing from rejuvenation glyph is not totally out of line. It's definitely on the lower end of the spectrum but that 1% it actually does give usually comes at a very opportune time.

For comparison: in the WWS above the maximum theoretical benefit regrowth glyph could have given was about 2% (if you exclude all the rounding then it's actually only 50% more than what regrowth glyph actually gave). Of course if you only refresh existing regrowth 50% of the time then this is already significantly less than the rejuvenation glyph and without the benefits of healing "when it's most needed".

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I think that regrowth glyph is overpowered at the moment, i expect it to be toned down in a future patch.

Swiftmend is extremely nice, at least for my playstyle.

I'm not decided yet if going lifebloom, innervate or rejuvenation.

Innervate is the most versatile but is it worth a major considering what other classes get? I think not. I will raid 10 man mostly and chanches are that i will usually use innervate on me rather than the other healer and with the amount of spirit we'll have an extra 20% seems irrilevant. I guess it becomes more appealing in 25 mans.

Lifebloom is nice and versatile. It helps getting more LB stacks out and give more time to do other things. It's hard to quantify exact benefit from this, as it greatly vary from situation to situation, but longer hots are always welcome in my opinion.

Rejuvenation pro and cons are already vastly discussed in this thread. I personally think it's not worth, 3 sec hot ticks are just too slow to be handy, especially when the tank need the healing (<50%). I see us using rejuvenation less and less often in the future. LB stacks + glyphed regrowth and swiftmend seems the most efficient way to heal, with occasional nourish (t7 bonus).

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I'm usually feral but due to a lot of new people wanting to tank I've decided to practice with the new healing spells. I don't think I have great gear, mainly some Sunwell and wotlk blues, but I haven't had mana problems on pretty much any fight except 4 Horseman. We've done all 10man Naxx and all but the Abom wing in 25man Naxx. This isn't some veiled I'm amazing post, I'm really curious where the mana problems are coming from for other druids. In 10man Naxx I usually give away my Innervate to the local shadow priest as well.

Is the fact that I always have replenishment masking the mana problem? I'm usually on the tank rolling full hots and nourish/swiftmend with some minor aoe help for the 2nd healer. Are most druids aoe healing? I've found that with full hots up I can sit on a clearcasting proc and regen a significant amount of mana and then twist it into an expensive spell like regrowth or wild growth. For my casting style I've found that the single point in omen of clarity amounts to a huge amount of mana return if you count the out of 5 second rule regen that it allows. The other druids have complained about running out of mana but I have consistently out healed them. As a raid leader I feel I need to understand where this problem stems from so I can try to fix or mitigate it as best as possible.

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I think you have hit the nail on the head there Scurn. I'm finding myself cranking the volume up so that I don't miss that all important Clearcasting proc sound and I've been holding off on chaincasting to ensure that I don't waste a proc on a 'cheap' Lifebloom when I could be using it for Regrowth or even Tranquility. At the very least, sitting on the proc and waiting until the last second to refresh a LB stack still gets you many seconds of out of FSR time.

The other thing that seems to be working against some of the Druids I've seen is the easy availability of "Balance" leather with int/stam/crit/SP (and maybe haste). Quite a few of them seem to be using a much higher proportion of direct heals than HoTs which means that clearcasting can't be leveraged into any out of FSR time.

The value of clearcasting will increase with Glyph of Lifebloom (which isn't yet available on my server) allowing more time in the healing cycle.

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The problem I've had while deciding on my glyphs has been the variety of roles i've had to play. I've healed all the 10-content and all the 25-content save Saph, Kel and Malygos, and my role really is different everytime.

All of the glyphs come with benefits that are dependent on the fight, the group size and the raid comp. For example 10-Naxx with 2 healers you and a Paladin, well you going to have to raid heal. Raid healing is mana intensive especially considering wildgrowth is sometimes hard to spread reliably. Other times i find myself doing more focused tank healing, like patchwork no matter what raid-comp or size, or if i'm running 10-Malygos with a priest.

All things considered, until more content or some mechanics changes i'll be going with Regrowth, Rejuv and Swiftmend. I'll most likely replace Rejuv with Innervate once i've recieved enough gear that Innervate on myself is a rarity. That may be next week at this rate though.

On a side note, I agree with you Scurn the problem with mana is mostly a result of "AoE" Healing. As a guild and class leader myself I've noticed other druids spam the raid too much. The result is usually a high start on the "overall healing" meters but then they run out of mana and stable-controlled heals see the fight through (This is one reason i no longer have an active meter, just wws). In 25-content i've usually found a solid hot rotation on the tank, with swiftmend and norish for spike management does the trick with a WG on the tank as well to hit the melee and then one on ranged groups.

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Is the fact that I always have replenishment masking the mana problem? I'm usually on the tank rolling full hots and nourish/swiftmend with some minor aoe help for the 2nd healer. Are most druids aoe healing? The other druids have complained about running out of mana but I have consistently out healed them. As a raid leader I feel I need to understand where this problem stems from so I can try to fix or mitigate it as best as possible.

Are the other druids you're talking about in your raid, or just in general? I've noted (as I'm sure plenty of others have as well) that there's a direct interplay between DPS and healing - If DPS is slow/unsure of positioning, then obviously mana is going to be strained for healers. My guild did nothing more than Kara/ZA in TBC (no T6 rolling into WotLK), and the only fight I've had trouble with mana so far is Patchwerk.

I really believe the mana issues will start to sort themselves out as DPS learn fights to finish them faster and gear progression allows everyone more efficient numbers. I wonder if we'll look back at our mana concerns in 1-2 months and laugh?

As such, I will be rolling Regrowth/Lifebloom/Swiftmend, because as noted above, the interplay of Regrowth and Swiftmend is pretty awesome and Lifebloom is our bread-and-butter.

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Of course, when fight is on farm there isn't a lot of mana concerns. But since farm fights doesn't matter, he is obviously talking about progression fights where mana does matter.

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I really believe the mana issues will start to sort themselves out as DPS learn fights to finish them faster and gear progression allows everyone more efficient numbers. I wonder if we'll look back at our mana concerns in 1-2 months and laugh?

Agreed. I didn't have much gear from T6 content going into WotLK, but I've noticed huge steps forward in longevity just from primarily heroic and emblem gear while I wait on my friends to finish leveling. With 10 second lifeblooms ticking for over 1000 now, and around 1000 mp5 while not casting without even having any Naxx drops yet, the mana situation is already starting to sort itself out even without Replenishment. I feel like I'm back to pre-WotLK regen, and am seriously considering shifting to a more aggressive almost full red gem style, particularly once I do start picking up raid gear. I really have no desire to switch one of my glyphs out for Innervate.

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I'm using swiftmend, lifebloom, and innervate. These work great for my style of play.

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I've found the innervate glyph to be a bit underwhelming. When used on myself it's overkill especially since I picked up [item]Spirit-World Glass[/item]. I was getting something silly like 28,000 mana back when I combined innervate with that. Enough to spam regrowth the entire duration of innervate and still come out with full mana.

When used on others I feel it doesn't give you enough mana, and comes out pretty close to just using a runic mana potion. While it's nice to have a second potion in a fight, it's hardly comparable to a full refill that I'm used to.

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