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Arentios

Restoration Glyphs

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I use the Innervate Glyph because most of the times I end up using my Innervate on the holy priest, so getting a small effect of it helps a lot. When I get more regen gear and get more confident about my mana I'll probably get Regrowth, but what I'm seeing lately is that at least to me this glyphs look way more useful in 5 and 10 mans; there's so much damage and heal flying around in 25 mans that I hardly ever use anything out of HoTs.

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My glyphs currently consist of:

- Regrowth

- Swiftmend (finally discovered on our server)

- Innervate

Regrowth is an easy choice for me. It was mentioned earlier by Anaram that this only works if you can handle unreliable heals. But I find that Regrowth - while cast with a previous regrowth still up - even on a non crit heals for at least as much as- perhaps slightly more than- a non crit Nourish. I'm aware that when comparing Nourish to Regrowth, even if they heal for the same value that Nourish puts out a better HPM (especially if talented) and also has the benefit of not resetting the HoT portion of Regrowth, both things which work in it's favour.. But.. I find that the 62ish % chance I have of a crit on RG (with current gear, bound to go up over time) more than out weighs the potential (38% chance, currently) loss of HPM.

If RG does crit, it heals for an incredible amount and plants a Living Seed, further increasing the HPM values.

All that said, I don't consider RG a spammable spell. Unbeknownest to me until I actually got the RG glyph for myself, the glyph actually applies to the HoT as well, not just the initial heal. Meaning that you definitely want that thing to be ticking as much as you can. Glyphed RG HoT ticks for just over 1k for me now which is nothing to sneeze at. It is very much worth using RG twice in a row (although not if it's going to be close to 100% overheal, then can wait a bit on it) in order to get the increased HoT value.

Swiftmend glyph is an absolute joy. Yes, it has the obvious benefit of saving you a little mana in not having to reapply Rejuv every time you use it, and a GCD for the same reason, but probably more important to me than these is the fact that using a SM no longer has any chance of resetting the tick timer. You can SM and then have a 1.6k rejuv tick immediately after (followed by a 1k regrowth as per above)!

Finally Innervate. This is one that eventually I likely will swap out - whether it will be for LB or Rejuv is still a matter of debate, I haven't been convinced either way yet. Primarily because due to my latency (I play from New Zealand) refreshing LB in the very last second is a risky and potentially costly move. So given that I have to query the utility of one extra second of LB for myself. Rejuv +50% tick is fantastic, but it's requirement to go off (target under 50% hp) means that really it won't be doing very much most of the time. Of course as others have said, when it does go off you can be sure it was very much needed.. But then the question is, is it really enough?

But I wander there.. Innervate! It is a fantastic glyph. The priest I roll with in my guild has a much, much higher mana pool than me (22k to my 18k or so when we're raid buffed) but doesn't regen naturally quite as well. Being able to toss an innervate on him while still getting some value out of it myself is invaluable right now. That said, we're not full epic'd out yet, and even when we will be, it'll be from 10m raids/heroism badges/heroic epics, not 25m content. So it is possible by the time we get here, and then wish to progress into Ulduar when released etc, that Innervate glyph will maintain it's value. It's too hard to call at this point.

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Of all the joy and discussion on the major glyphs, we haven't discussed what and why we should pick from the minor glyphs. I know that they aren't the best in the world, but how should we gage the "usefulness" of them? The benefits I see from the glyphs I chose did two things that are needed in every online role-playing game, increase inventory space, move my character faster. So for these reasons I chose

Unburdened Rebirth (less reagents to carry)

Dash (dash more often)

Aquatic Form (move faster underwater)

I see a lot of people picking up Glyph of the Wild, which may occasionally save you some time, but in my experience after casting a full-cost gift, I still have my mana up to full before the Palidan.

With the "Dash more often" glyph I am able to get away in sticky situations (ie, prevent my own death in a wipe scenario)

I see no usefulness for a tree to take the 1 hour thorns glyph because I use my 10 minute buff as a timer for the thorns I throw on the tank (if he is not a feral druid).

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The only minor glyph I see getting much actual use out of in a raid situation is glyph of the wild. And even then, only for giving someone mark of the wild after I battle res them.

I guess theoretically lower cooldown dash and faster aquatic form could help in raids, but I don't see much use for them in current content.

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Minor glyphs I have pretty much the same as you, Fin, except I did opt for the Glyph of the Wild as opposed to Dash. Dash glyph reduces the CD on Dash by 20% right? Basically meaning you can do it every 2.5m instead of every 3m? 30 sec reduction on dash timer didn't seem all that big a deal to me. If I'm having to Dash more often than that, I want to know why! Of course, in PvP that would be quite a different story.

Of course, this is not to say that GotW is a huge benefit either, but, eh. I do like it. 1k mana raid buff ftw. :P Although I guess one more serious argument for it would be that if someone has to take a bres during a fight, it is far more paletable to drop a 400ish mana mark than an 800ish one.

Edit: Was beaten to the punch on the bres thing! But good to see someone shares my thoughts on that. :)

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Of all the joy and discussion on the major glyphs, we haven't discussed what and why we should pick from the minor glyphs.

Most likely because none of our minor glyphs have any real raid benefit, at least for resto. Thorns has some minor benefit for tank druids, otherwise all of ours are either space saving or only really useful soloing. The posters above me do have a good point with Glyph of the Wild saving a little mana for people who were just battle rezzed. Being able to dash more and swim faster just don't have much raid application.

This is in contrast to some classes actually have some significant raid value in their minor glyphs; [item]Glyph of Water Shield[/item] being a good example, especially for resto shaman, for whom this has the indirect effect of raising the HPS/HPM of Lesser Healing Wave. None of ours really have any constant beneficial effects to our healing. (Which is fine, I don't really feel like minor glyphs should have that much of an impact, Water Shield just ended up being a nice exception.)

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Alo, I've got a question and wanted to see if my math was correct on this.

So if you have 3/3 Moonglow (9% off Healing Touch cost), 5/5 Tranquil Spirit (10% off Healing Touch cost), and Glyph of Healing Touch (25% off Healing Touch cost), does that equate to the below equation?

33% Base Mana * 0.91 (Moonglow) * 0.90 (Tranquil Spirit) * 0.75 (Glyph) = 20.27% base mana?

If that statement is true, then would glyphing Healing Touch and those talents make it approximately as much as Nourish, but much more efficient because Talented with Empowered Touch (40% more bonus healing on Healing Touch) would give it a coefficient of 226% of spell power vs. Nourish's 80% or so?

All that would make Healing Touch a 1 Second cast spell with Naturalist. If you use Regrowth to proc Nature's Grace in Balance, wouldn't that make a huge heal drop with approximately 0.5 second cast timer?

Basically then you are just racing the GCD for big fast heals. Please someone tell me if I'm reading into this right.

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If that statement is true, then would glyphing Healing Touch and those talents make it approximately as much as Nourish, but much more efficient because Talented with Empowered Touch (40% more bonus healing on Healing Touch) would give it a coefficient of 226% of spell power vs. Nourish's 80% or so?

The glyph of healing touch, to the best of my knowledge, halves the final heal value. This means it halves both the base heal and the coefficient.

Here's the essential tradeoff with the glyph of healing touch. Your first two glyphs will generally be swiftmend and regrowth (or so is the consensus as I see it). Your third glyph will either be something like innervate or lifebloom (in which case you use nourish for emergency heals, but can also use nature's swiftness + healing touch), OR you use healing touch glyph (in which case your glyphed healing touch acts like a nourish but slightly more expensive and without the HOT bonus, AND you can no longer use NS+HT). The advantage of glyphed healing touch is that it lands 0.5 seconds faster than nourish. If you cast it after a crit, and you have a bit of haste, it can even land instantly (though you still have the GCD to deal with).

Since the primary point of nourish/glyphed HT is 'flash heal', that is saving people who are low RIGHT NOW, the faster landing may be worth a major glyph (and spending extra 10-12 talents point on healing touch vs things like improved tree of life and living seed which are also fairly minor boosts). Or it may not if you want to let other classes handle that. It helps that the third major glyph for resto druids doesn't have a strong contender.

Edit: If you gear for a lot of haste, glyph of healing touch becomes very strong, I think. This is because druids primarily cast a lot of instant cast spells + Regrowth. Regrowth has a 60%+ to crit with typical gear, which means Nature's Grace will typically be up a lot. Nature's Grace is not consumed by instant spells. That means that if you have enough haste to reduce glyphed healing touch casting time by 0.5 seconds, then with Nature's Grace up your glyphed healing touches will be instant. This is like having Swiftmend, but you can use it a lot more frequently (using Regrowths to regenerate Nature's Grace of course). Of course this is a questionable benefit for using so much itemvalue on haste, which is otherwise not a great stat for druids.

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I have to say that Nature's Splendor in combination with the Lifebloom glyph have really fit in perfectly with my healing style. I'm a big fan of "set it and forget it" HOTs. I love being able to stack 3x Lifebloom on a tank and then help top the raid off. Those 8ish seconds (with GCDs considered) of freedom to focus on other things have made me so much more aware. I would highly recommend anyone to give it a shot. If you are someone who is good with a HOT timer and refreshing at that 1s mark, it scales with gear nicely.

I've heard mixed things about the Regrowth glyph in terms of bugs. Is it working as intended for sure?

Glyph of Rejuvination is a waste in my personal opinion. Anything that requires your target to be below 50% health seems very lame to me for PVE. I could see it being useful in PVP where a Druid may need a few extra seconds to drink and someone may need that extra healing, but it's just not reliable from a mana efficiency standpoint to rely on "ifs".

Glyph of Innervate is very nice. I really need to ask my raid how people feel about their mana. I think as the content gets more difficult, I may swap out Lifebloom and start using it. However right now I just don't hear anyone in our raid complaining about being OOM. Replenishment and people stacking +INT combined with the instant farm status content we're clearing just doesn't really push anyone at the moment. So, we'll see..

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Glyph of Innervate is highly overrated in my opinion.

Unless you take gear without Spirit rather too often (or are horribly undergeared with level 70 items) then you will get enough mana from the base spell itself.

Any fight you are willing to give your Innervate away for doesn't matter and causes no stress on your mana that a potion wont cover.

If people are begging for your Innervate then I would guess they are also heavily lacking gear too and could use some time in Heroics (or you have really horrible DPS in your raid - but then you will need IV yourself so...).

Any fight you need your Innervate you will end up getting something stupid like 10,000 mana excess and at this level of gear I doubt you have enough haste to consume anywhere near that much.

This could be wrong if you are in full Int/Sta/SP/Haste gear or something but.. well if you are doing that then I doubt you read this website or are even aware of glyphs.

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Glyph of Innervate is highly overrated in my opinion.

Glyph of Innervate might makes sense in a 25 man raid with 2 resto druids who both take it, and use Innervate on each other. In a hypothetical encounter where mana is really at a premium. Otherwise, I agree: it's a pretty situational glyph.

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33% Base Mana * 0.91 (Moonglow) * 0.90 (Tranquil Spirit) * 0.75 (Glyph) = 20.27% base mana?

No, they stack like so:

33% Base mana * (1-.09 (Moonglow) -.1 (Tranquil Spirit) -.25 (Glyph))= 18.48% base mana

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Which benefits a druid more ... seems a part timer druid has decided that I am stupid to stack Spirit which improves healing too as far as I know and can read from stats

From all other advice given via EJ - it has always said Spirit

The debate between spirit and MP5 is different for different classes. As resto druid healers the 'intensity' talent allows you to regenerate 30% of your mana well casting. This allows your spirit to affect you in 'regular' combat. 'Improved tree of life' talent does infact give you more spellpower. With roughly 1k spirit I am looking at 50 additional spellpower. Does that help? yes, is it huge? no. Lastly we have the living spirit talent. When you add these all up, then they begin to become formidable allies that help make spirit more viable to the resto druid (but perhaps not everyone else, including boomkins!).

I once ran some numbers trying hard to convince myself that blizzard knew what it was doing, and that there were situations where spirit was better than mp5, and here is a brief summary of the results:

-If you are always casting within 5 seconds you get more mana with the amount of mp5 equivilent to spirit. and factoring spellpower bonus I got some number that indicated the results i wanted from spirit were worth 70% the results I received from mp5.

-You are infact not always casting withing 5 seconds, even if you want to be. There are constantly situations where you are feared, silenced, wrapped in a web, stunned while the boss mob delivers a speech, switch of phase between fights etc. During these times, or times you can manufacture 5 seconds of not casting the results of spirit over mp5 are substantial.

-Lastly and most importantly for me is innerviate works with spirit and it doesnt work with mp5. The value of this bonus is incredible, if I wear an mp5 suit and innerviate I often dont get a full mana bar even while not casting! When I stack spirit I find I am able to continue healing through the innerviate and finish it off with a full bar.

It is true that blizzard values 1 mp5 = 2.5 spirit I have seen proof of this on many occasions.

Here is a post by a thoughtful person who took time to write down their numbers, and came up with a result that also slightly favors mp5, but agrees spirit works more for druids than any other class :

Resto4Life: Mystery No More: Spirit and MP5

The difference between the two stats is a little murky still, it depends on your playstyle. I think for the resto druid you could do well with either stat, and since mp5 is rare you will wind up with some spirit regardless of preference. My preference was to stack spirit to the point where my innerviate fully charged me while casting, and then I began to stack mp5 beyond that point. This value seems to need constant tweeking as my mana pool changes, and I have been going more by feel than by numbers.

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That Resto4Life article was from before the spirit formula was changed to scale with intellect.

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The worth of spirit and intellect versus plain ol' mp5 has been investigated in my spreadsheet (see sig). What I have found is that if you do not count innervating yourself, spirit and intellect are indeed worth less than one point of mp5. With innervate, you find that spirit is about 20 times better than mp5 and int about 10 times. So, innervate is a big factor. In terms of comparing intellect and spirit between each other, it depends on the mix you have. If you stack int alone, you will see diminishing returns of int's power to increase regeneration. If you don't have a good chunk of intellect, spirit isn't worth much either.

However, though (discounting innervate) mp5 is worth more than int or spirit, I think mp5 is overbudgeted on gear. You won't see mp5 enough on our gear to make it a major deciding point between gear choices.

I don't remember what version I have in my sig, but in the current one that I'm working on, I have accounted for 5SR, Innervate, and fight length when comparing the stats.

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We're getting a little off-topic here. Int vs. Spirit vs. MP5 belongs in the itemization thread.

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I think the topic has drifted because there really isn't much to discuss on the subject of Restoration glyphs. Currently Regrowth & Swiftmend are complete no-brainers so the "debate" comes back to Lifebloom vs Innervate which naturally leads to a discussion on whether or not you use your Innervate on yourself.

In the interests though, of staying on topic, what do people think of the consideration that talents/Glyphs that extend the duration of our various hots simultaneously reduce the value of haste and increase the value of spirit on our gear? Refreshing less means fewer GCDs spent and more oFSR time right?

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I think the topic has drifted because there really isn't much to discuss on the subject of Restoration glyphs. Currently Regrowth & Swiftmend are complete no-brainers so the "debate" comes back to Lifebloom vs Innervate which naturally leads to a discussion on whether or not you use your Innervate on yourself.

In the interests though, of staying on topic, what do people think of the consideration that talents/Glyphs that extend the duration of our various hots simultaneously reduce the value of haste and increase the value of spirit on our gear? Refreshing less means fewer GCDs spent and more oFSR time right?

Good call, and that's why I like Lifebloom.

Honestly, I don't think Innervate is worth it yet. If we start seeing encounters where various raid members are going OOM, I'll consider it. However right now, I'd prefer to add that one second to my Lifeblooms and spend as much time as possible regenerating mana. I think we'll have this discussion about Innervate again once Ulduar is released. Apart from 3-drakes Sartharion, nothing in Wrath has really required me to Innervate myself or anyone else in our raid.

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Vazu - we have 2 drakes down and will be trying 3 this week. Any tips would be appreciated :)

I'll have to re-check the AH for the Lifebloom glyph. As of last week, it appeared no one had discovered it yet so I'm stuck with Innervate. It's nice for when I give it to someone else for the 20 sec of oFSR time but I do agree that it's a bit of overkill when you use it on yourself.

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Vazu - we have 2 drakes down and will be trying 3 this week. Any tips would be appreciated :)

I'll have to re-check the AH for the Lifebloom glyph. As of last week, it appeared no one had discovered it yet so I'm stuck with Innervate. It's nice for when I give it to someone else for the 20 sec of oFSR time but I do agree that it's a bit of overkill when you use it on yourself.

We're doing our first real full night on 3 drakes Sartharion this evening. I just know that from a fight standpoint, it's the only thing that will test my mana pool and regen right now. I'll post more as I figure things out in terms of my role and limits there.

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We're at the same stage then Vazu. 2 drakes down last week, trying for three tonight. It definitely is the only fight out there that will test resources atm, I'm looking forward to it.

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I've found the innervate glyph to be a bit underwhelming. When used on myself it's overkill especially since I picked up [item]Spirit-World Glass[/item]. I was getting something silly like 28,000 mana back when I combined innervate with that. Enough to spam regrowth the entire duration of innervate and still come out with full mana.

I'm glad you brought up Spirit trinkets. Math time!

(From another thread: Assuming 1000 intellect and 1000 spirit, 1 spirit increases your main mana regeneration with 1.115 mp5 out of the five second rule or 0.335 mp5 in the five second rule.)

Innervating someone else if I have around 1300+ spirit gives me:

(1.115-0.335)*1300*20sec/5 = 4056 more mana than if I'd done nothing

Activating Spirit World Glass (1636 spi) and then casting on someone else gives me:

(1.115-0.335)*1636*20sec/5 = 5104 more mana than if I'd done nothing

Plus a full bar for someone else. If you feel like it, there are also some green/blue trinkets with with a Use: Give me Spirit that you could add to that. Toss in more buffs than my base assumption and equip a "Spirit Stick" weapon, and collect 6000 mana just for breathing.

When new raids come out, that'll be sexy.

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Plus a full bar for someone else. If you feel like it, there are also some green/blue trinkets with with a Use: Give me Spirit that you could add to that. Toss in more buffs than my base assumption and equip a "Spirit Stick" weapon, and collect 6000 mana just for breathing.

That's not entirely true--generally speaking, trinket uses are divided into two categories, defensive and offensive, and you can't activate two defensive or two offensive trinkets at once. This is why [item]Moroes Pocket Watch[/item] and [item]Badge of Tenacity[/item] worked so great together, because the agi use was considered offensive, and could be stacked with the defensive dodge use of the pocket watch. You wouldn't be able to activate two spirit trinkets at once, though. You could, I would think, hit a +heal trinket at the same time and go nuts spamming Regrowth on everyone if you used the innervate on yourself in an emergency situation, but that would be fairly limited use, I think.

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That's not entirely true--generally speaking, trinket uses are divided into two categories, defensive and offensive, and you can't activate two defensive or two offensive trinkets at once. This is why [item]Moroes Pocket Watch[/item] and [item]Badge of Tenacity[/item] worked so great together, because the agi use was considered offensive, and could be stacked with the defensive dodge use of the pocket watch. You wouldn't be able to activate two spirit trinkets at once, though. You could, I would think, hit a +heal trinket at the same time and go nuts spamming Regrowth on everyone if you used the innervate on yourself in an emergency situation, but that would be fairly limited use, I think.

I'm going to have to say you're wrong on this. I do a fair bit of tanking, and I know that I will frequently activate both my [iTEM]Valor Medal of the First War[/iTEM] and my [iTEM]Monarch Crab[/iTEM] when I feel like I need to give my healer a break, or when there's a big special ability coming up, etc etc. They should both be considered 'Defensive' trinkets since dodge rating doesn't do diddly squat for either my dps or tps.

As for what spirit is considered as far as trinkets goes, the servers are down right now, but it would be quite easy to test.

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My Glyphs are probably not as well planned out as I had thought before reading this thread lol. But here they go anyways

-Glyph of Healing Touch

-Glyph of Innervate

-Glyph of Swiftmend

But looking back I'm thinking I may change them up a bit. I don't use glyph of Lifebloom because the extra 1 second is actually not very good from the standpoint i'm looking at. That is less then 1 GCD so unless i was catching it at the right point it's not even another whole person I can roll lifeblooms on.

Regrowth Glyph- I really just have a thing against it. I have seen the numbers on it but I still don't really see it as a good glyph. It seems like it could be but i'm still kinda liking the whole .7 second heal touch for 4500-5200 with 8000 crits on healing touch. Though it has no hot.

Rejuvenation Glyph-How often does a tank really drop below 50% that the extra 800 would matter so much. A lifebloom would tick in that same time for 1200+. It could be good for raid healing if you were mass hotting the raid but with the new COH/Wild Growth smart healing, alongside beacon of light and chain heal, it kinda negates much use of rejuv on a raid.

Swiftmend-Every 15 seconds i can save the 500 or 600 mana or whatever it is on a rejuv, or if i was using regrowth glyph which i may end up swapping out w/ then it allows me to possibly swiftmend that and keep the effects of the glyph.

Innervate-I dunno about this one. It seems buggy. Sometimes I don't get the extra 100% regen(equates to 25% of the normal 400%) buff. Not sure if it's a display issue or an actual bug in the game. I may swap this one out w/ the regrowth or maybe HT out for the regrowth.

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