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frmorrison

Pawn Values for all Specs: Updated to 3.3

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It's actually fairly easy to calculate, take half your value of block value, and twice the value of spell power (Since most abilities scale at an equal rate with both spell and attack power but strength provides 2 attack power per point), add them together, and then you have a good value for strength.

Sorry for misleading you. I said strength is difficult to calculate its value because it is both mitigation and threat, not because I don't know the formula. Even for the same tank, the important of strength maybe different when tanking 5-man vs tanking raid.

As someone pointed out above, I'd recommend going for multiple possible weightings to evaluate pieces in for Protection. You can't compress tanking properly into one complete value, since the goals you can choose to pursue with your gear are typically situational.

Yes, apparently this is the better way.

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As was mentioned before, there is no "best" way to do tanking, since situations call for different items that then become better.

Yes, better have separate Pawn weights, something like what Left is using.

The reason why SP and int are in the list is if a non-Prot Pally that wants to tank a non-heroic they can better pick their items.

No. Ret pally should wear the same tanking gear when want to tank. Rarely heard of holy pally tanking, but I will still suggest wearing regular tanking gear because suvival is a much bigger issue than threat generation for a holy pally tank!

Please remove int and SP already! That wowhead poster was an idiot who probably stacked Int when tanking during TBC (or even now)!

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Ret pally should wear the same tanking gear when want to tank. Rarely heard of holy pally tanking, but I will still suggest wearing regular tanking gear because suvival is a much bigger issue than threat generation for a holy pally tank!

At some point your T9 ret/holy gear may be better for tanking than some of your random dungeon blues that you may still be carrying around in your "tanking" set. It would be worthwhile for people who may not have a complete set of tank gear to know whether something is an improvement over their current prot setup.

Just because you personally don't find those stats useful or see a need to be able to compare them, doesn't mean that they are pointless.

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Would it be safe to assume that once we are ~295 hit rating we would benefit from a ret scale that has 0 hit as a weight?

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Would it be safe to assume that once we are ~295 hit rating we would benefit from a ret scale that has 0 hit as a weight?

Indeed.

If you have that much hit you will never miss no matter what ghost hit you have.

What some people do is copy the Ret weighting into another string, then edit that string hit value to have HitRating = 0. You could do the same thing to expertise once you had 25.

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Indeed.

If you have that much hit you will never miss no matter what ghost hit you have.

What some people do is copy the Ret weighting into another string, then edit that string hit value to have HitRating = 0. You could do the same thing to expertise if you had 21.

Is 21 the hard-cap for EXP? Or is it 25?

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Is 21 the hard-cap for EXP? Or is it 25?

No 26 expertise skill is the point at which you won't get dodged, unless something has changed and I can not find it.

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At some point your T9 ret/holy gear may be better for tanking than some of your random dungeon blues that you may still be carrying around in your "tanking" set.

lol, do you know what you are talking about? Are you that wowhead poster?

Ok, seriously, what you can do =/= what is the best. I have no doubt you can tank SM wearing cloth; similarly you don't even need to wear your precious dear all-powerful T9 ret/holy gear to tank normal instances ----- ever heard of overgeared tankadins need to take off the pants when tanking or use 2-handed weapon? Yes, at the late TBC they have good reason to do so. But now we are talking about Pawn weight used to compare regular "tanking" gear for appropriate level.

Depending on your other gear. You can tank pantlessly if overgeared, so of course you will be fine wearing one or two piece of T9 ret/holy gear. But if you are talking about wearing a whole set of T9 ret/holy gear to tank, this is simply fail. You can ask some experienced tankadins. I'm sure all of them will tell you to wear some blue or even green tanking gear instead of your dear T9 ret/holy gear set.

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No 26 expertise skill is the point at which you won't get dodged, unless something has changed and I can not find it.

It is 25, my keyboard messed up earlier!

Nothing has changed, it has always been that at least for Pallies.

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lol, do you know what you are talking about? Are you that wowhead poster?

Ok, seriously, what you can do =/= what is the best. I have no doubt you can tank SM wearing cloth; similarly you don't even need to wear your precious dear all-powerful T9 ret/holy gear to tank normal instances ----- ever heard of overgeared tankadins need to take off the pants when tanking or use 2-handed weapon? Yes, at the late TBC they have good reason to do so. But now we are talking about Pawn weight used to compare regular "tanking" gear for appropriate level.

Depending on your other gear. You can tank pantlessly if overgeared, so of course you will be fine wearing one or two piece of T9 ret/holy gear. But if you are talking about wearing a whole set of T9 ret/holy gear to tank, this is simply fail. You can ask some experienced tankadins. I'm sure all of them will tell you to wear some blue or even green tanking gear instead of your dear T9 ret/holy gear set.

That is exactly the reason why it doesn't hurt to include the "extraneous" stats in the scale. If I have to choose between a piece of ret gear I grabbed in Naxx 25 and a tanking quest reward I picked up while leveling in Dragonblight, it is very reasonable to want to be able to compare one against the other. I fully expect spellpower and int to rank very low on the scale compared to traditional tanking items, but you're foolish if you think they are actually worthless.

By all means feel free to take it out of your own personal scale if you're that upset about it, but don't claim that those stats are useless to everyone just because there are better stats available on gear.

[e]As for your earlier comment on holy paladin tanking, it was farily commonplace for holy and ret paladins to toss on a few pieces of prot gear and help tank for the dragonhawk boss and gauntlet areas of ZA. A lot of guilds also utilized holy/ret pallies in tanking gear for hyjal trash from time to time.

Nobody is trying to say that wearing all holy or ret gear is ideal. We're just saying that being able to compare a really good piece of offspec gear to a crappy piece of tanking gear is useful to some people in certain situations.

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Solution:

Like what we were talking about, break it into several pawn weight settings to avoid confusion:

- Normal tankadin avoidance oriented value

- Normal tankadin blocking oriented value

- Normal tankadin threat oriented value

- Holy paladin tank genius who have no idea that Int and SP do not help his survival but only give mana pool that he doesn't really needed and threat that he won't survive long enough to worry about oriented value

I will stop from now on. Hopefully people reading up to this page by now know that the current prot weight on the first page is faulty.

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Regarding ret values for Pawn, what are the values for gems? I think its best to assume red=16str, blue=6str, yellow=8str + 8hit or 8str + 8crit

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Depends on how good the socket bonus is... I wish pawn could fit the proper gems in to get the most combined value of other stats, since you already give it the value for str, crit, hit, haste, mp5, int, sp etc.

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Depends on how good the socket bonus is... I wish pawn could fit the proper gems in to get the most combined value of other stats, since you already give it the value for str, crit, hit, haste, mp5, int, sp etc.

Well, for the metagem, you would need one of each color. The values Ive mentioned above is in case you need that gem to be either yellow or blue. Otherwise, yeah, everything should just be 16str, unless the bonus is really good (which i havent really seen yet at this level).

Also, im wondering, why is it that Redscape spreadsheet give us a value of 126.59 for hit rating, while the OP here (who took values from Redscapes spreadsheet) is valueing hit as 118.

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Possibly because hit beyond cap is worthless, and valuing it the same as the spreadsheet probably makes you go over the cap.

One of the way to optimize your gear setup regarding hit (when using the spreadsheet value for hit makes you pick items that take you over the cap) is to slowly lower the value of hit and re-pick gear over and over. The lowest value of hit that still makes you pick gear that will hit cap you is approximately the optimal setup in that situation.

Of course another more accurate way is to just go over all gear combinations and see which give most DPS, since going above the cap isn't nescessarily optimal.

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Regarding ret values for Pawn, what are the values for gems? I think its best to assume red=16str, blue=6str, yellow=8str + 8hit or 8str + 8crit

Use 16 Strength for all gem values in Pawn. Socket bonuses are never worth using a blue and rarely worth using a yellow unless you're using them to activate you meta. Once you're hit capped, no stat is worth half of what Strength is.

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Possibly because hit beyond cap is worthless, and valuing it the same as the spreadsheet probably makes you go over the cap.

One of the way to optimize your gear setup regarding hit (when using the spreadsheet value for hit makes you pick items that take you over the cap) is to slowly lower the value of hit and re-pick gear over and over. The lowest value of hit that still makes you pick gear that will hit cap you is approximately the optimal setup in that situation.

Of course another more accurate way is to just go over all gear combinations and see which give most DPS, since going above the cap isn't nescessarily optimal.

The way i see it, value for hit would be 126.59 till caped and 0 after that. I still dont understand where the 118 came from.

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Between 5-6% is the hit cap for majority of Ret players that had Precision pre-3.0, so I lowered the spreadsheet amount by a bit to reflect that.

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The way i see it, value for hit would be 126.59 till caped and 0 after that. I still dont understand where the 118 came from.

The way you see it simply doesn't work for optimal gearing, and in quite a few cases isn't even a good approximation.

Look at the following simplified scenario:

Let's say I need 1 more hit rating to cap. Now I need to choose between 2 items: 1 with 2 hit rating and no str, and another with 2 str. If I value hit fully, I will pick up the item with 2 hit rating, while in reality only gaining 1 hit rating, in which case 2 str would've been better.

Another scenario:

Let's say I need 1 more hit rating to hit the cap, and can choose between 2 items - one with 1 hit rating and one with 1 str. Wearing none of them, I would choose the hit rating item. Once I wear it, the str item becomes an upgrade! So I put that on... Now the item with hit rating becomes an upgrade - see the infinite loop problem?

I'm sure if you spend some time thinking about it you'll come up with more realistic scenarios that have the same issues as my simplified examples, as I've seen some myself in BC.

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I have a spreadsheet that I keep updated with my current gear. I currently have mostly blues as I just hit level 80 (I even still have my t6).

This spreadsheet has an ability to account for both threat and mitigation and you can choose how much to value either portion.

Here are my pawn values for high threat and low threat situations.

Threat 5%

( Pawn: v1: "ProtMit": Strength=9.5, DefenseRating=16.5, Stamina=19.1, DodgeRating=18, ParryRating=14.5, Agility=14.5, BlockRating=1.0, ExpertiseRating=1.5, BlockValue=16.5, HitRating=1.1, Armor=1.2, Intellect=0.0, SpellPower=0.8, Ap=1.2, CritRating=0.6,)

Threat 20%

( Pawn: v1: "ProtThr": Strength=18.8, DefenseRating=13.9, Stamina=16.8, DodgeRating=15.1, ParryRating=12.8, Agility=12.2, BlockRating=0.9, ExpertiseRating=6.1, BlockValue=17.4, HitRating=4.2, Armor=1.1, Intellect=0.2, SpellPower=3.1, Ap=4.7, CritRating=2.4,)

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I think since threat is neglicible most of the time, it may be best to completely seperate it on pawn and have it give a "survival value" and a "threat value" separately for each item, that way if some item is really good threat but not good as a main use item you can see it, while at the same time be able to see if an item is slightly better for survival but a lot worse for threat (which is probably worth it most of the time). When you mix threat into the sum it's harder to see those important things.

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Look at the following simplified scenario:

Let's say I need 1 more hit rating to cap. Now I need to choose between 2 items: 1 with 2 hit rating and no str, and another with 2 str. If I value hit fully, I will pick up the item with 2 hit rating, while in reality only gaining 1 hit rating, in which case 2 str would've been better.

Another scenario:

Let's say I need 1 more hit rating to hit the cap, and can choose between 2 items - one with 1 hit rating and one with 1 str. Wearing none of them, I would choose the hit rating item. Once I wear it, the str item becomes an upgrade! So I put that on... Now the item with hit rating becomes an upgrade - see the infinite loop problem?

I'm sure if you spend some time thinking about it you'll come up with more realistic scenarios that have the same issues as my simplified examples, as I've seen some myself in BC.

Adjusting the global value of hitrating seems to be a completely bogus solution to the problem. The reality is that the value of hit rating is a piece-wise linear function: It has a value until it caps, after which it has no value. If mods/spreadsheets don't support adjusting to that for gear that makes you overshoot the hit cap (your first example), you'll have to do the calculations by hand.

Your second example is wrong and silly.

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I was just showing why "hit rating is worth what it's worth until you hit the cap, and 0 after that" is a very poor evaluation. Of course simply reducing the value to compensate is also a bad solution but it's still better than the first one.

My second example isn't wrong because if you value hit for 0 once you're capped, you will value the 1 hit rating item as 0 while it's on and more than 1 str while it's off, creating a paradox, which is why evaluating hit in that manner is fundamentally wrong in cases where you're anywhere near the cap (either from above or below).

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My second example isn't wrong because if you value hit for 0 once you're capped, you will value the 1 hit rating item as 0 while it's on and more than 1 str while it's off, creating a paradox, which is why evaluating hit in that manner is fundamentally wrong in cases where you're anywhere near the cap (either from above or below).
That still requires the person making the decision to act in a purely logical manner, so unless we're talking about a Ret Paladin bot here who would get stuck in an endless loop of swapping his gear, that isn't a particularly useful example. A real person would simply check what benefit 1 strength gives when hit capped, and what benefit 1 hit rating gives when not hit capped, and go with the best of those two options.

Or to put it differently, if the value of 1 strength when wearing neither item is less than 1 hit rating, no one would swap in the 1 strength item if that would cause them to lose out on the 1 hit rating. If the values were higher, so that the benefit of one item would be 1 hit rating (While it gives 10), while the other item would give out 10 strength, no one would choose to use the hit rating item however, since a 10 strength benefit has a higher value than 1 hit rating does.

I really can't imagine anyone needing this clarification either.

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