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Sadirin

Druid changes Patch 3.08

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Current Maximum health includes buffs, whereas current health would be the health that you have at the time of popping the skill.

Sounds like a solid buff.

Yeah, I misunderstood that it seems. I just assumed it was something aimed at bears somehow due to Last Stand not being mentioned under warrior changes, but maybe their version already works like that (I haven't played my warrior in forever).

In that case that is buff indeed.

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Download the most recent rawr and play around with the 3.0.4 armor option. You'll see that in a lot of slots, items with no bonus armor are competitive with the old bonus armor items.

Thats not quite correct: armor trinkets/rings/cloaks got nerfed to the lower level of other tanking euipment. It is not that other equipment gets better for bears. Overall we _loose_ . We cannot choose from good equipment now, we can only choose from bad equipment now.

So, lets take RAWR: with the armor changes i loose in my current setup something around 3000 armor and my overall points drop from 285 000 to 260 000. Now, I can change rings, trinkets, cloaks etc ... I loose an additional 3000 points an get 1k life and 2% dodge and my overall points raise to 276 000 points overall. But it is stil a nerf.

Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.

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Thats not quite correct: armor trinkets/rings/cloaks got nerfed to the lower level of other tanking euipment. It is not that other equipment gets better for bears. Overall we _loose_ . We cannot choose from good equipment now, we can only choose from bad equipment now.

So, lets take RAWR: with the armor changes i loose in my current setup something around 3000 armor and my overall points drop from 285 000 to 260 000. Now, I can change rings, trinkets, cloaks etc ... I loose an additional 3000 points an get 1k life and 2% dodge and my overall points raise to 276 000 points overall. But it is stil a nerf.

Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.

Yes, it's a nerf. But if they did not do it this way they would do it in another fashion. It's been quite a while since it was noted that overall bear tanking had to come down in some way.

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"come down in some way" .. well, we will see bear tanking in T8/T9. I am not quite sure if bears will still be happy concerning overall avoidance and mitigation.

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Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.

I'm having trouble seeing that; Just which sort of equipment are you assuming that every normal bear has when the patch hits? To get anywhere close to losing 3k armour from the change without having any gear from Naxxramas you almost have to be using Badge of Tenacity and Offering of Sacrifice - something that a lot of old druid tanks will have by now and more by the time the patch goes live but which can most certainly not be assumed to be the case for every normal bear (and is certainly not going to be the case for most new bears in the expansion).

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I really hope this is just rank 1 and it somehow scales to not completely suck. Lets see, two Swipe (Cats) on a full energy bar, or swap to Bear form for unlimited 2 target Mangle + unlimited all target Swipe...

It also builds no combo points, so the cost of 50 energy is absolutely absurd.

It looks like it's designed to be identical to Fan of Knives. The area of effect is slightly different, but aside from that it'll likely be the same. It gives us comparable trash utility to Rogues, that's all.

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It looks like it's designed to be identical to Fan of Knives. The area of effect is slightly different, but aside from that it'll likely be the same. It gives us comparable trash utility to Rogues, that's all.

i think the overall point is, why would you bother using this cat swipe when you can go into bear form, swipe forever with infinite rage, and be able to survive if you pull aggro?

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Since I _never_ set foot into naxx (ony 5er heroes, leather and badge vendor equipment), it will be a severe nerf for every bear who used armor weapons, trinkets, necks, cloaks and rings. Of course, the looney toon bear who go with 20k armor into a heroic instance will get buffed. Every normal bear will get nerfed.

Check your numbers. It's been shown on multiple occasions that losing bonus armor for rings/trinkets/etc but gaining it from SotF will be a buff to all bears that aren't in the best +armor 25-man Naxx gear (notably [item]Defender's Code[/item], among other things), and a slight loss for them. If anything, it's exactly the opposite of what you're saying--a buff for most of us, a slight nerf for the way over-geared.

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I'm having trouble seeing that; Just which sort of equipment are you assuming that every normal bear has when the patch hits?

Flowing Cloak of Command, Enraged Feral Staff, Badge, Offerining, Amulet of Wills, Nerubian Ring, Iceforge Battle Ring in my case. 5-heroics, nothing more. Even if I would reduce the equipment to nothing from heroic instances, for example the Enraged Feral Staff with the Kirin Tor Staff of Shrouded Mysteries and the armor ring from the juwel crafter it would still be 1k to 2k armor loss.

And yes, i assume that every serious bear druid will have something like the torta neck or the ring of earthen might. I do not assume a bear druid in green "of the monkey" leather as a standard setup for heroic and raid instances.

Just an example for the most basic tanking equipment for every serious bear in LK, before the bears enter any heroic or raid instance:

Head: Headguard of Retaliation

Neck: Torta Oversized Chocker

Shoulder: Trollwoven

Back: Flowing Cloak of Command

Wrist: Drake Champion

Hand: Preserved History

Waist: Trollwoven

Leg: Mind expanding

Feet: Jormscale

Ring1: Iceforged battle ring

Ring2: earthen might

Trinket1: Badge

Trinket2: Commendation

Weapon: Shrouded Mystery

Armor pre patch (without any buffs): 29 100 Armor

Armor post patch (without any buffs): 28 400 Armor

Almost 1k with the most basic of normal tanking gear. And with every armor trinket, weapon etc it gets worse.

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It looks like it's designed to be identical to Fan of Knives. The area of effect is slightly different, but aside from that it'll likely be the same. It gives us comparable trash utility to Rogues, that's all.

Only rogues have the option to spec into Blade Flurry for addiitonal mutli-target damage as well as having more than double our energy return, making for a superior set of aoe DPS tools. If anything I'll likely cat swipe twice with a 1 point SR then go bear to finish the pull.

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Only rogues have the option to spec into Blade Flurry for addiitonal mutli-target damage as well as having more than double our energy return, making for a superior set of aoe DPS tools. If anything I'll likely cat swipe twice with a 1 point SR then go bear to finish the pull.

I'll likely do the same. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just that it's a cut and paste of FoK.

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"Remove Curse and Abolish Poison can now be used in Moonkin form."

Apparently blizz forgot that remove curse already could, but the abolish poison change is a huge buff to moonkin pvp (And useful for boss encounters where poison cleansing is at a premium).

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Yeah, I misunderstood that it seems. I just assumed it was something aimed at bears somehow due to Last Stand not being mentioned under warrior changes, but maybe their version already works like that (I haven't played my warrior in forever).

In that case that is buff indeed.

What am I missing here. If you have 30000 maximum health and pop SI at any time, you gain 10000 HP for 20 seconds (old). Now if you have 30000 maximum health, and pop SI when you're at 10000 HP and in threat of dieing... you gain 3000 HP(new?).

How exactly is this a buff?

And regarding SoTF addition, I don't see a reduction in armor anywhere. Is this a buff to overall bear armor, or a compensation for something else that I haven't seen yet?

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"Remove Curse and Abolish Poison can now be used in Moonkin form."

Apparently blizz forgot that remove curse already could, but the abolish poison change is a huge buff to moonkin pvp (And useful for boss encounters where poison cleansing is at a premium).

Gigantic buff for soloing, too. Too bad I already finished Zul'Drak...

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I'm guessing the Survival Instincts is 30% of current health (current maximum health is a little confusing). Maybe it was too good with the higher bear health pools. I'm just hoping they remember it if we do get the health modifier adjusted at some point.

I highly doubt that it's current health; rather, I read it as "current maximum health" incorporating not only buffs but also debuffs, so that for example the health gained would be modified by debuffs like Power of Vesperon or whichever Utgarde Pinnacle boss it is that stacks a health-diminishing debuff. Though I can't confirm it at the moment, I suspect that Survival Instincts currently does not take into account those debuffs but in 3.0.8 it will.

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The armor changes are a nerf if your bonus armor is >= 45% of your total armor, which a top of the line naxx druid was. If you are in full Wrath blues then it should be a buff, however if you are still using some TBC tier/PVP gear then it may very well be a nerf for you as well.

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29 100 armor pre patch

28 400 armor post patch

Not as far as I can see; unless I have made a mistake in counting the armour on the gear you list, you appear to have a total of 3242 base armour and 2107 bonus armour on the items(Flowing is base 140, bonus 364 as far as I know), which means that currently the armour on the items should be providing (3242+2107)*1.1*4.7 = 27650 armour, while they would provide (3242*1.1*1.66*4.7)+2107 = 29930 armour post-patch for a gain of 2280 armour.

(And if you choose to dump the [item]Flowing Cloak of Command[/item]in favour of [item]Durable Nerubhide Cape[/item] at that point, you'd lose 354 armour and 26 defense rating and gain 4 str, 36 sta, 49 dodge rating, and 21 expertise - a favourable tradeoff from a tanking perspective)

If you replace the [item]Commendation of Kael'thas[/item] with the [item]Offering of Sacrifice[/item], that would give you 2657 bonus armour instead of 2107, for 30497 armour now and 30480 armour post-patch for a loss of 17 armour.

If you do that and throw in the [item]Enraged Feral Staff[/item] for another 385 bonus armour we get 32487 pre-patch and 30865 post-patch for a loss of 1622 armour.

What is the difference in our calculations that gives you so significantly different results from mine and allows you to construct scenarios where you can lose 2-3k armour without having anything from Naxxramas? If there's an error in my calculations, I'd dearly love to know it - which base and bonus values have you been using when you got that result? :)

Absent such an error, everything I've seen suggests that those with under approximately 30k armour from armour sources at the moment are unlikely to feel it as a nerf, and that it is entirely possible to have armour items in all relevant slots without losing the 2-3k armour you wrote about first unless you are pretty close to best in slot equipped, and that, as such, it is very likely that there'll be considerably more "normal bears" that feel it is a buff than there'll be who feel it is a nerf.

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I really hope this is just rank 1 and it somehow scales to not completely suck. Lets see, two Swipe (Cats) on a full energy bar, or swap to Bear form for unlimited 2 target Mangle + unlimited all target Swipe...

It also builds no combo points, so the cost of 50 energy is absolutely absurd.

It's 45 energy, since it's affected by ferocity. Taking into account the extra 120 energy per minute from tiger's fury, and the extra 3.5 cat swipes a minute from OOC, that works out to 19.5 swipes a minute by my calculations, or roughly 2 bear swipes for every cat swipe.

You have to consider that cat swipe will be doing significantly more damage than double the damage bear swipe does. Cats have more AP than bears, cat swipe will do 260% weapon damage, you can have savage roar up, you can use tiger's fury, cat specced druids get extra crit damage. Because of this I think cat swipe will be a better option than bear swipe. I figure it to do a bit over 50% more DPS than bear swipe for my gear as a tank specced druid, although some of that is won back by bear maul (if rage is available) vs cat auto attack. Not incredibly blow it out of the water better like some may have hoped for, but still better.

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It's 45 energy, since it's affected by ferocity. Taking into account the extra 120 energy per minute from tiger's fury, and the extra 3.5 cat swipes a minute from OOC, that works out to 19.5 swipes a minute by my calculations, or roughly 2 bear swipes for every cat swipe.

You have to consider that cat swipe will be doing significantly more damage than double the damage bear swipe does. Cats have more AP than bears, cat swipe will do 260% weapon damage, you can have savage roar up, you can use tiger's fury, cat specced druids get extra crit damage. Because of this I think cat swipe will be a better option than bear swipe. I figure it to do a bit over 50% more DPS than bear swipe for my gear as a tank specced druid, although some of that is won back by bear maul (if rage is available) vs cat auto attack. Not incredibly blow it out of the water better like some may have hoped for, but still better.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the game tracks energy regeneration even when not in cat form, yes? In that case, feral AoE will resemble the way a lot of classes do dps -- you have skills you want to spam, but you can't because they have cooldowns, so you fall back on your secondary skills. For cats they will swipe (cat) twice (maybe more if you pop tiger's fury/berserk), shift to bear and swipe (bear)/maul (mangle if berserking?), and shift back to cat when they get enough energy to swipe (cat) again. Seems like a reasonable buff to feral AoE if swipe (cat) significantly outdamages swipe (bear), and it makes it less boring to boot.

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The armor change does seem like a buff over all. In my feral gear (offspec feral, so a few badge pieces and a few items that i'we got from 25naxx that nobody else needed combined with heroic/rep gear) i have 37k armor at the moment. According to my math i'd have around 35k after the patch, which in itself currently is a slight decrease. The change will however allow me to switch what then becomes negligible amounts of armor (offering of sacrifice being the most obvious one) to pieces that give a lot more avoidance or stamina.

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I hadn't considered the cat/bear shifting idea. It might work, although the mana cost makes it unsustainable for long I suspect.

As far as the armor changes go, I really can't see how people see it as a nerf. It gives us a heck of a lot more gear options, and whatever minor decrease people see in armor is made up for by the extra avoidance and stam you can stack in those slots now. I mean really, people complaining about losing 400 armor or something if you have otherwise crappy high armor stuff in every slot? That's less than 1% extra physical mitigation. You'll easily pick up a couple of percent dodge and a couple of thousand HP if you replace those items. Not a difficult tradeoff to make.

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I hadn't considered the cat/bear shifting idea. It might work, although the mana cost makes it unsustainable for long I suspect.

Sure it's not sustainable, but AoE is not very sustainable for most classes. Typically in modern raid encounters AoE demands are bursty, and dps classes get long breaks to recover their resources/cooldowns. On trash it doesn't matter much -- and at any rate iLotP, a talent which many people fit into their raid specs, should help. Primal tenacity's new mana cost reduction would be nice for this as well, but the overall talent seems better for PvP, and is probably too marginal to fit into feral PvE specs which are chronically short on points these days.

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As I recall unless you have iLotP you get no way to mana regen at all in forms now, so it's pretty much required if you want to do the shift between the two idea for bursts on a long fight. I agree that taking primal tenacity is purely for PvP.

However you could also argue that if you're talking about doing short bursts, then just saving 100 energy and using tiger's fury during that burst is probably plenty. That should allow you to get 5 cat swipes off in 6.5 seconds. By the time you're done sitting in bear for 10 seconds to regen 100 energy after that is anything much going to even be alive?

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about first unless you are pretty close to best in slot equipped, and that, as such, it is very likely that there'll be considerably more "normal bears" that feel it is a buff than there'll be who feel it is a nerf.

Well, as I wrote, I never entered Naxx 10/25, only heroic 5man instances, and I am sitting on something like 34k armor unbuffed. I used RAWR to check the armor change and changed the cloak manually, so perhaps I made an error there. But I learned to trust RAWR, when it comes to numbers.

You can see my current heroic setup under The World of Warcraft Armory ... for me it will be a major armor nerf and I don´t have Defenders Code. And please no comment about missing enchants, I have several problems with my time/priority management in WoW. ;-) But even with the above mentioned starting tank set I cannot imagine that this patch will be a buff ... and don´t forget, in 2 or 3 month from now on, many bears will consider Naxx10 something like an enlarged UBRS / Karazhan: random groups running through in 3-4 hours. Which means the armor change will hit a lot of bears in some month from now on.

And to be honest: I regard my setup as a possible base setup for every bear who runs several heroic instances and who wants to tank Naxx and more and nothing "special", "time consuming" or even "top of the line".

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As far as the armor changes go, I really can't see how people see it as a nerf. It gives us a heck of a lot more gear options, and whatever minor decrease people see in armor is made up for by the extra avoidance and stam you can stack in those slots now. I mean really, people complaining about losing 400 armor or something if you have otherwise crappy high armor stuff in every slot? That's less than 1% extra physical mitigation. You'll easily pick up a couple of percent dodge and a couple of thousand HP if you replace those items. Not a difficult tradeoff to make.

Because it is a nerf. It's a good thing in the long term because it doesn't make us as reliant on specific drops, but you cannot possibly say this is not a nerf. We're not "gaining" anything back, and that 1% physical migitation you're talking about is infact a 4% damage taken increase, going from 27% of all physical damage taken * PotP reduction = 23.76% damage taken, instead of that I'll be taking 29% of all physical damage taken + PotP reduction = 25.52% damage taken, that's a 7% damage taken increase. You're out of your mind if you think I'll "get that back" by being able to use non-armor gear, because if that were the case we'd already be using that now.

Now again, this will work out in our favour in the long run just because of the RNG drop system, but don't try to sugarcoat it as a buff.

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