Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

jilanea

State of Rogues

390 posts in this topic

In rebuttal to the poster above - you replied exactly how the poster (who you are replying to) said you would. By criticizing and demeaning. You say "where are the wws reports". I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've seen many of those reports and it seems that when a rogue tops the charts on one boss fight in 20, that is cause for celebration. Like that is 'good'. Are we reading the same reports?
Obviously not, which may just be why I asked for them. I can make a bold prediction that if he replies to me, it will be to defend himself, claim he's a great player and his guild is just casual, but that doesn't mean any of it is true. Doing something that generally results in 'X' and then saying "I bet 'X' happens" is neither interesting nor useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post

In short: what we seem to be finding is that the best members of the best nonrogue classes beat the best rogues... but the best rogues beat everyone else. So unless you can get 15 world-class mages, hunters, and fury warriors, it's totally reasonable to bring a good rogue.

I didn't see this post, but am taking it from the poster above.

I am rather shocked at this sentiment. The supposedly top dps class reduced to playing with subpar players to 'get ahead'. And this seems to be ok with you. What I am curious about is, how you ladder this approach.

Your words: what we seem to be finding is that the best members of the best nonrogue classes beat the best rogues.

So:

Good members of the best nonrogue classes beat the good rogues.

Average members of the best nonrogue classes beat the average rogues.

Lame members of the best nonrogue classes beat the lame rogues.

Lets look at it from that point of view. Which basically shows, rogues are subpar no matter how you slice it. Infact, one can conclude that it is still probably better to get a worse player in a best nonrogue class for buffs alone.

And sure, this thread is tumbling, so lets discuss some alternatives. We all agree there is an issue, yet we differ on the calamity of such an issue. Lets discuss solutions. We know there is an issue, We have diagnosed it to some degree, personally - so could there be value in talking about remedies?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If the Druid is doing 3500 and you're doing 3k, he's winning because you're bad.

Every time an equally geared/skilled Feral edges me out by 100-200dps, there are 3 fights I edge them out. To be beaten in every fight means there's a skill or gear advantage not being admitted to.

I don't see a problem flip flopping damage done and DPS with a Feral.

Wow Web Stats

My performance is adaquate and by no means a sample of excellence. Our guild is not full of hardcore members. I think I represent the average Rogue in a Combat, 7/51/13 scenario pushing out 3-3,500 DPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*snip*

... That Cat Druid who is almost identically geared as I am (besides weapons of course), even having slightly better items should be doing anywhere from 500 to 1500 more DPS on most boss fights than me?

*snip*

Now, go and raid with those other DPS classes you say we are on par with because they are clearly the reason you look through foggy glasses. Better yet, try raiding with better players of those other DPS classes and then come and talk.

Now it’s your turn to call me “bad†because I hurt your feelings with the truth.

Well, your cat druid must be a very rare talent, which I'll admit I've seen evidence for but these are truly superb players that can hand a rogue his hat. That aside, I really think the divide here is semantic. One camp believes that we are in serious trouble. This is because we aren't established single target kings. Should we be? I am inclined to think so since it hardly strikes me as fair that the other pure dps classes *can* beat us on single targets and absolutely annihilate us on AoE. I'm also in the camp that disagrees with the very notion of Fan of Knives being our AoE solution since I don't believe we have any reason to do damage in this way. I like the utility of it on Sartharion as an emergency weapon swap "oh shit, the add tank didn't get the adds out of the wave in time" maneuver, but not as a primary means of doing damage. Predicated on the assumption that we don't become a significant AoE class, I believe we should be the de facto, undisputed single target damage leaders. We were meant to beat enrage timers. At least, that's my view.

The real question is simply about whether or not rogues really are needed at all. As a raid leader, I have never called a raid because we didn't have rogues online. I can, however, say I've called raids when missing any of the other classes, with DK's being the only exception but hardly a valid data point given how little time we've had with them. Right now, my other guild leaders have already marginalized the class. There's 1 slot in our raid group for a rogue, and that's me because I'm the RL. That's the only reason. That signaled an alarm to me since when pressed on the matter, their response to me was simply: "You're there to pick up any rogue drops, and frankly, we get more out of any other damage doing class/spec." So, yes I'm at the top of the charts, sometimes #1, always top 5. I'm a WWS Scoreboard rogue and I have a near-complete gearset. We have several active posters on this forum that can say the same. I've yet to see any of them claim to be #1 all the time on a single target, and it's a fair assumption they represent the best-in-breed the rogue class has. If that's what it takes to simply be competitive, there's something that needs to be addressed with our class. Everyone agrees with that.

The question is what to do and how much?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why should we destroy this thread by posting that stuff just because it's allowed (to posters few posts above). =/

Whether you think rogues need a big buff, small buff, no buff or even a nerf it's fairly clear that the majority of posts in this thread have been little more than thinly veiled QQ. Large buff supporters post WWS reports which small or no buff supporters try to tear down and vice versa. There's been more infractions in this thread than I've seen in any thread I remember recently and many more posts that should have gotten one. The wishlisting alone is phenomenal.

And what has it accomplished? I'm willing to bet that over the course of 15 pages of posts in this thread nobody who has posted here has changed their minds about anything. Neske's post and the ones that came after it (including my own) are merely the result of the frustration on both sides due to the fact that many suspect something is going on, we know Blizzard is looking at us and we have no information to work with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Whether you think rogues need a big buff, small buff, no buff or even a nerf it's fairly clear that the majority of posts in this thread have been little more than thinly veiled QQ. Large buff supporters post WWS reports which small or no buff supporters try to tear down and vice versa. There's been more infractions in this thread than I've seen in any thread I remember recently and many more posts that should have gotten one. The wishlisting alone is phenomenal.

And what has it accomplished? I'm willing to bet that over the course of 15 pages of posts in this thread nobody who has posted here has changed their minds about anything. Neske's post and the ones that came after it (including my own) are merely the result of the frustration on both sides due to the fact that many suspect something is going on, we know Blizzard is looking at us and we have no information to work with.

The point of a discussion isn't to ultimately change anyone's mind. And just because there is too many infractions on some thread, it doesn't make the thread bad per default (actual discussions tend to have a few anyways, for all classes). There is alot of good stuff posted in this thread, and it surely has a much greater impact on this class in the long term than knowing whether you want murder or webbed death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In short: what we seem to be finding is that the best members of the best nonrogue classes beat the best rogues... but the best rogues beat everyone else. So unless you can get 15 world-class mages, hunters, and fury warriors, it's totally reasonable to bring a good rogue. And if you're a bad rogue - it's not at all clear to me that you have grounds for complaint.

The best members of the best nonrogue classes is every other DPS class, that would beat us on DPS. While, that is not exactly true, you are looking at the issue with the Rogue class, that currently, we underperform head to head against players of equal skill. In some cases, I would say even against players with less skill than us (Hunters who are getting nerfed, Fury Warriors, Mages are random - a bad mage can easily crit their way up).

Apart from that, if you look at a Combat Rogue, everytime they take damage that brings them below boss health %wise, their 50pt talent becomes garbage. Mutilate suffers heavily on fights with interruptions and movement, not being able to take advantage of Evenom's debuff would be one example there. And I believe these are also the reasons why some Rogues are able to perform well on those top WWS reports we saw. If you leave aside a stationary fight like Patchwerk, you are looking at Rogues that are able to min-max around their movement and interruptions to achieve good DPS.

Also, in regards to Tricks of Trade being used by Rogues on each other during fights, a 3 min Patchwerk kills allows 6 uses of ToT on another Rogue, that is 36 seconds of 15% increased damage. I don't see how that can be insignificant, and it ToT should not be a tool Rogues have to rely on for DPS increase.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assuming all spreadsheets are based on the same modeling as the one we use: deterministic and not stochastic (simulations). Assuming they are up to date and reflect reality in the best possible way. Wouldnt comparing the results of ours with theirs give us a *rough* idea of the state we are in?

This does not include the fact that all fights are different and that some are more suited for particular classes, but it gives us an idea of how we compare under ideal situation for all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also, in regards to Tricks of Trade being used by Rogues on each other during fights, a 3 min Patchwerk kills allows 6 uses of ToT on another Rogue, that is 36 seconds of 15% increased damage. I don't see how that can be insignificant, and it ToT should not be a tool Rogues have to rely on for DPS increase.

Uh...

36 seconds of 15% increased damage on a 180 seconds fight = 20% uptime of 15% damage = 3% overall damage increase, minus the damage lost for using Tricks (my spreadsheet says around 1.5%). So no, it isn't very significant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello fellow rogues!

After playing my rogue for over 4 years and reading and enjoying Ej treads same time, decided to reply to some of posts here.

They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.

95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.

But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.

Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.

My first and last post in here.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

I think this whole thread has a whiny tone and it should have been heaped from the start. Hopefully the above post highlights that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think this whole thread has a whiny tone and it should have been heaped from the start. Hopefully the above post highlights that.

All it illustrates is that there'll always be inarticulate idiots who get themselves banned.

Stating there are problems and trying to show what the problems are is not whining.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like the major contention is about the scale of DPS disparity between various classes, and rogues, and the validity of the claims of class mechanics being the cause rather than player skill or gearing.

If you were to base line the gear and the content, you could quantitatively show any DPS disparity. It should be trivial to find an instance in Northrend that presents a minimum of gimmicky boss fights, or if preferred a broad sampling of the gimmicky boss fights. Composite a group with 4 stable members and a slot in DPS: Tank, Healer, 2 DPS with required group utility, and 1 DPS to be evaluated. Equip each member with the appropriate rep or crafted gear sets of the same quality (in other words not drop dependent). With the gear and content being base-lined you can quickly identify player skill issues, and eliminate them. After player skill is eliminated as a variance, you'll see where class mechanics make a difference. With well established controls you can see how your slot in DPS class ranks with other DPS, and how it affects the group performance on any number of interesting statistics.

Until some strong analysis is done, this discussion will continue to be dominated bye-peening and QQ'ing with any reasoned discussion getting drowned out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hello fellow rogues!

After playing my rogue for over 4 years and reading and enjoying Ej treads same time, decided to reply to some of posts here.

They are made mostly by one prominent rogue whos work in rogue community I highly value and appreciate.

95% or more rogues here claim we are far back on dps in raid environment. I can nothing that to agree looking at our raid parses, seeing other dps classes beating me by 10-20% on regular basis.

But we have The Rogue here claiming that we are "not" that bad, that other classes are "maybe" better, and we have "powerfull" buffs.

Remember that most posters here have an excellent knowledge and experience with rogue class, so please start treating us with respect.

My first and last post in here.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

lol wut? I think I lost pieces of my brain through my eyeballs after reading this...

p.s. bless you for the bolded part...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I think this has gone on long enough. We all knew from the beginning that this wasn't a great topic for a thread, and a lot of you have contacted me questioning my decision to let it run as long as it has. And, frankly, it's looking like you were probably right. However, I believed that there was a reasonable discussion to have here, and was hoping our forum members were able to have it without it turning in to a repetitive whinefest. Apparently I was giving some of you entirely too much credit. To those of you who were trying to stay on topic, I thank you.

Now, before I start getting accusatory PMs from you folk (and I will) I want to take a minute to spell out why this thread is closing, and I assure you that it has nothing to do with the fact that I am or am not losing the debate here, nor does it have anything to do with the fact that I do or don't respect the opinions of all posters here. The reasoning looks something like this:

There are problems with the rogue class right now. There are other classes that do more damage than we do at the moment. Some of them are being adjusted next patch; some of them aren't (at least, so far). And a great number of rogues have said in these forums that a 3-5% buff to our damage would most likely bring us into line. This was decided within the first couple pages of the thread, so, really, all further discussion of the point is moot. We don't need eight thousand people coming to the thread to post "oh, and our DPS is bad, Blizzard needs to do something about it". We went over that already. Yes, our DPS is perhaps a hair on the low side. And we've said what's necessary to fix it. We don't need to talk about it again three times per page. But we are, because some people won't leave the fucking topic alone, and it's turning this thread into a repetitive whinefest.

Now, to answer the most common responses to that argument:

But a 3-5% buff isn't enough! I'm losing by like 12890123890128908 DPS on Patchwerk! WTF! - Other rogues, with decent gear, are competitive at the top levels. Oh, we don't always win - but we sometimes do (allbeit perhaps not as often as we should - see previous point about a possible need for a DPS buff). So if other rogues are close to top DPS - maybe a couple hundred low, but no more - and you're thousands behind losing to prot pallies - you need to ask yourself what the successful rogues are doing that you're not. Because if they're top 5 and you're 14th, that's not a problem with the class - that's you being undergeared, or you fucking up.

But a 3-5% buff would only put us competitive with the top couple DPS - we should be clearly ahead! - No, we shouldn't. Blizzard has stated that the days of us winning by facerolling purely by virtue of being rogues is over. All (or at least, most) classes should be able to do near-top DPS under Blizzard's current balance paradigm. On good rogue fights, this might lead to us being marginally ahead on certain fights; but we shouldn't be 5, or 10, or 20 percent ahead on all fights like a lot of you have been suggesting. We're supposed to be marginally ahead on good rogue fights, a bit behind on bad rogue fights, and competitive - meaning sometimes but not always winning - on those without any clear class favoritism.

But that's stupid! Blizzard's balance model is idiotic! If our DPS is only competitive we'll never get invited to a raid again! - Maybe, maybe not, but discussing balance in terms of anything other than Blizzard's stated balance goals is unproductive. That is what balance is going to be for the next while, and if it turns out that guilds aren't bringing competitive-DPS rogues for whatever reason, I imagine Blizzard will take another look at it. But that's not what's happening right now.

So, in short: the arguments over our DPS and overall balance have become quite circular, we're hitting on these points on the order of twice a page, and, frankly, it needs to stop. There are some other issues with the class - Poison Scaling, Expose Armor, and so forth - that might be worth discussing further, but as everyone seems to want to just whine about the same old problem rather than moving on to something productive, I guess we're not going to get that chance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.