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jilanea

State of Rogues

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With the best Mutilate gear in the game you are looking at ~5200 DPS. I don't know about combat but I'd be guessing it's in the ballpark of that as well.

I'll take wws this evening with new toys (Calamity's and actual 25 man T7). I won't run known exploits on fights (HAT), especially on content as trivial as Naxx is now (and multi-drake Sarth is if we could get people on reliably thanks to holidays and finals).

In the last run I ran meters on, using Silent Crusader MH and 10 man T7. Wow Web Stats. Sorry, anonymized thanks to guild rules (except for the unfixed DK stuff, lolwws). I'm the retard rogue at 4760ish.

Since then I've picked up a substantial amount of crit (5% from fist spec - and I'm not one of the people getting the blessed bug :( ) and about 400 ap.

Using current gear, in 10s we're doing much more poorly, a recent achievement run, Wow Web Stats. Admittedly not an optimzed group with no sunders and me throwing non-imp, non-glyph EA on fights including Patch. Take away the EA penalty (and it's huge), and we'd be more competitive. I'm only 100ish over the other rogue in the raid with roughly the same gear (and who I typically outplay by a large margin), whereas normally it'd be 600-1k. I should add that I'm still many hundred below hunters.

I am working stupidly hard to get the dps I do on most fights - but I just can't catch up even blowing full consumables. Haste potion nerf hit us particularly hard, and with the lower dependence on white numbers, WF just isn't what it was after the changes.

Where I'm valuable now is threefold, my dps isn't abhorrent (versus honestly what it should be in max gear), I don't die stupidly, and I show up every night and have for far too many zones now.

I have difficulty comparing some classses to others at this point, simply because Naxx is stupidly friendly to hunters (and probably ranged, but we seem to eat the souls of ranged in our guild and they don't stay) by and large in that you can sit and plant somewhere (and pets don't fall over dead immediately on a lot of it), and loved by DPS warriors because of the huge quantities of free rage floating around as aoe/raid damage. We don't get the gimmick advantage of +9000 bleed damage on fights (and who can force a warrior to go arms or know what a feral is these days), so I end up spamming untalented, unglyphed evisc on Loatheb and other gimmicksl for pure ugly numbers. I'm also still in my Naxx learning curve, being one of the few in the guild who didn't do it at 60.

So in summary, we're not awful. We're also not scaling as well as people seem to have projected. A lot of the rogue complaints I've seen are from people still running with 'ZOMG 70, must stack hit' mentality, or who haven't played around outside reading a post or tow. I get beaten by any of the classes that Blizzard spent a substantial time on in alpha and beta, and I think personally that's where we're in trouble until a class review in a future patch. The last couple major pushes on beta got us closer than we were for months, but they just didn't go far enough.

I'm hoping for change sooner rather than later.

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All classes suffer when there is movement.

Rage degenerates.

Runic Power degenerates as well. DK's unlike Warriors do have to maintain debuff/attack rotations to perform ideal DPS.

Ret Paladins require crits to refresh their damage buffs.

All casters have some part of their rotations that require cast time or channeling.

Rogues and Ret paladins and perhaps Feral druids have it the easiest. Every single attack in part of a normal rotation is instant cast and thus does not really suffer as much when movement is involved.

"Movement" is not a valid crutch that Rogues can fall on when our DPS slips.

I think disadvantage would be fights where the boss moves but ranged dpsers would not be required to move.

That is basically moot though because there are also fights where ranged will have to move and melee does not.

In fact, I'd say the most difficult fight in the game now favors melee, since they can dps drakes on sarth uninterrupted by flame tsunami, wihle ranged classes will have interrupt their dps while moving to avoid it.

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And this is exactly what Blizzard wanted, as stated multiple times. We are all roughly equivalent, and what you listed is what will get you in a group. We don't NEED utility to be brought along. If your guild has too many people for their raids, your skill should get you the spot. And aside from top guilds, I doubt you or anyone has the ideal guild setup where everyone is of equal skill.

I don't agree with this. Its all about the numbers. Plain and simple. Many raids are run on a set time schedule and to be fast. If a rogue lacks survivalability, lacks useful raid buffs (ToTT is really not that useful, truth be told), and is pumping out average dps EVEN ON MOBS he/she is not gonna be taken unless they are personal friends of the raid leader. Truthful. As much as everyone here says "Its not about 'overall dps', its about BOSS dps", its not true any longer. The plain truth is, most everyone posts "overal dps/damage" and THAT IS WHAT is important. If some rogue does 200dps more on a boss, yet is a numbnuts on all the mobs... his value, in terms of 'working as a team' is reduced and that rogue is expendable. But the problem is, we can't even enterain that idea becasue even on "rogue boss fights" we are not winning. And "one" raid boss does not make a rogue top dps. That is what I don't understand. Lets say rogues finally, after some buffs, top patchwerk. So what? If a mage is tops in 7 out of 10 or a hunter or whatever.. "they" are the top dps'ers not rogues.

This whole whine about rogues and their DPS is exactly what happened when Blizzard announced DPS would be aligned in WotLK. No more, no less. It's time we got used to it, don't you all think?

No. You can't be equal in dps yet unqueal in movement, survivalability, raid buffs. That does not make any sense. DPS is one component in a slew of them. IF you make dps equal, then you must make all bosses, all buffs etc.. equal. Is that possible? No. So, aligning dps is a losers gambit.

We may need tweaked, but it certainly isn't the horror that some make it out to be. We're also not necessarily supposed to top the meters. It depends on the fights, and at the end of the day, regardless of the fight, there's nothing wrong with not being first, as long as you are fairly close to everyone else. Again, that was stated by Blizzard.

The big issue with these sorts of sentiments is an inability, and I feel many rogues exhibit this, is that they only look "at themselves" when denoting an issue. For instance, raid rogues who are in guilds and are invited along because of friendship or because they have better gear than others etc... they can't project outside themselves and say "yeah, overall rogues are lame.." They only see their position and say "things aren't that bad...". Try this. Go to LFG and whisper the rogues. Ask them how hard has it been for them to get into heroics or raids. You will find that many are having a hard time because they are being overlooked.

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In fact, I'd say the most difficult fight in the game now favors melee, since they can dps drakes on sarth uninterrupted by flame tsunami, wihle ranged classes will have interrupt their dps while moving to avoid it.

This is all well and good but the phasing mechanic encountered in this fight (with 1+ drakes up) removes the ability to WWS it with any reliability (even combining logs). Therefore it's not well measurable and if you can't show that melee is doing well on it, then it doesn't matter if they are or not.

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I clicked on this thread expecting something totally different than what's here, but I'm going to say what I have to say anyway (I think it still is kind of relevant).

Is it just me, or is the rogue class pretty well done? I mean, other than the HaT situation, I don't see quite as many changes being applied to Rogues as a great many other classes. Correct me if I'm wrong (but nicely, I'm fragile!) but it seems to me as if Blizzard is happy with the general state of rogues, +/- a few tuning aspects.

That's not to say that we aren't a little low on the DPS meters (which is what seems to be the consensus in this thread) on certain fights, but the way Blizzard is moving, those fixes will either come in the form of small coefficient changes, or a small amount of tuning to the other classes. Pardon me, other classes, for saying this, but I kind of feel like Rogues are being used as something of a baseline.

Full Disclosure: I'm on the outside looking in here, I stopped playing 2 days after LK came out, but am I wrong?

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Pardon me, other classes, for saying this, but I kind of feel like Rogues are being used as something of a baseline.

Ghostcrawler said as much but I believe that was largely an example and that all classes were being tuned towards some imaginary number (Rogues included).

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If raid leaders are looking at overall dps for a raid instead of specific fights, or roles in fights, they are being shortsighted.

They should be optimizing for success, not for speed of a whole clear. If the rogue does more dps on the boss fight, he is being valuable, as success on the boss is the only variable. If you are wiping consistently to the trash, then the boss will be an even bigger hurdle.

Sure rogues may be unequal in movment, survivability, buffs, etc to some degree, but it is not major, and the differences in healing required are negligible. The only situation I can think of where this isn't the case would be on a fight to fight basis if things like more tanks are required, and only then will you see a big impact in 10 man raid makeup.

Most of the difficulty that people get pugging groups I'd imagine would be attributed to the perception of rogues (true or not), which is perpetuated by crying. I don't think I've ever seen someone turned down from a pug specifically because they were a rogue (melee dps was the closest I've seen). The case is usally a need for tanks or healers.

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I don't agree with this. Its all about the numbers. Plain and simple. Many raids are run on a set time schedule and to be fast. If a rogue lacks survivalability, lacks useful raid buffs (ToTT is really not that useful, truth be told), and is pumping out average dps EVEN ON MOBS he/she is not gonna be taken unless they are personal friends of the raid leader. Truthful. As much as everyone here says "Its not about 'overall dps', its about BOSS dps", its not true any longer. The plain truth is, most everyone posts "overal dps/damage" and THAT IS WHAT is important. If some rogue does 200dps more on a boss, yet is a numbnuts on all the mobs... his value, in terms of 'working as a team' is reduced and that rogue is expendable. But the problem is, we can't even enterain that idea becasue even on "rogue boss fights" we are not winning. And "one" raid boss does not make a rogue top dps. That is what I don't understand. Lets say rogues finally, after some buffs, top patchwerk. So what? If a mage is tops in 7 out of 10 or a hunter or whatever.. "they" are the top dps'ers not rogues.

To which I'll reply: anyone who looks at overall DPS/Damage is a bad raid leader. Fights are different, even trash. Some favor certain classes more than others. There's a reson I always have Recount set to "Current Fight", not Overall. If your raid leader kicks your out of a raid for overall damage, you need to find a new leader.

EDIT: Leto types faster than me. :P

Second part of that quote above: you say if we get some buffs, yet a mage/hunter ends up on top 7/10 times then it hurts us? That's another example of someone not knowing how to read a damage meter. Do you only look at the #1? What if the next person is 1% behind only? I've done some runs where everyone ended up withing 5% of each other. Can you truly say some of the people in that group sucked? Of course not! Maybe they had bad luck with the RNG, who knows? This is within acceptable margins, and it's ludicrous to think rogues would need a buff if we always ended up that close to the top DPS'er, whatever class that may be.

We may need some tweaks right now, but not massive buffs, that's for sure.

No. You can't be equal in dps yet unqueal in movement, survivalability, raid buffs. That does not make any sense. DPS is one component in a slew of them. IF you make dps equal, then you must make all bosses, all buffs etc.. equal. Is that possible? No. So, aligning dps is a losers gambit.

Go tell Blizzard that. That's their reasoning, not mine. We're back to the "consider the type of fight, don't just focus on absolute damage meter numbers." They didn't balance the classes with specific types of fights in mind. You can't ask for buffs solely on the basis of movement fights.

The big issue with these sorts of sentiments is an inability, and I feel many rogues exhibit this, is that they only look "at themselves" when denoting an issue. For instance, raid rogues who are in guilds and are invited along because of friendship or because they have better gear than others etc... they can't project outside themselves and say "yeah, overall rogues are lame.." They only see their position and say "things aren't that bad...". Try this. Go to LFG and whisper the rogues. Ask them how hard has it been for them to get into heroics or raids. You will find that many are having a hard time because they are being overlooked.

I'm invited on progression runs because I can top the meter or come close. Nothing else. You're essentially saying I think things aren't that bad because I can't see what's going on outside my guild. I'm not sure the opinion of rogues in the LFG channel are necessarily reflecting the reality though. Perhaps there's a reason they're not established within a guild.

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This is all well and good but the phasing mechanic encountered in this fight (with 1+ drakes up) removes the ability to WWS it with any reliability (even combining logs). Therefore it's not well measurable and if you can't show that melee is doing well on it, then it doesn't matter if they are or not.

Logs aren't needed to see this... it's just logic. I've observed it personally many many times in progress on Sarth with drakes up.

When flame tsunami comes, you have to move to avoid it. To minimize movement, you place ranged classes in one potential safe spot, and tank the drake in the other. Melee can dps just as effectively while moving, while range classes generally have to interrupt their casting, etc.

We would get the first drake down before portals much faster when luck gave us more waves where ranged didn't have to move.

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Any complaints about performance on AoE pulls are pretty much irrelevant come 3.0.8. Cooldown-less Fan of Knives is extremely powerful, especially when combined with Overkill and Focused Attacks.

I'm curious how this will pan out between Assas and Combat. We'll assume we are trying to maximize AOE damage, so Assas would have two 1.8 speed daggers, and Combat a 2.6 speed fist and 1.8 speed dagger. With the 3.0.8 patch, the 1.8 speed daggers can effectively be considered 2.7 speed weapons for the purpose of FoK (or is 150% damage somehow different than 150% speed?).

Lets say an average pull has 5 mobs, and you are running with a 40% crit rate. 6 hits, 4 crits, 8 energy back from FA, thus the average cost of FoK is 50-2.5(4/5 T7)-8=39.5. The cost with Combat is 47.5. With both specs running SnD and staying on a single target, a certain amount of energy is generated through FA, or CP, and I am not sure how these stack up. Combat also has the benefit of vitality. In the end I think Combat can perform more FoK than Assas can due to vitality.

Damage modifiers; Assas has FW and Vile Poisons, while Combat has PoTW and Serrated Blades. I think these would stack up fairly evenly, but if they ever fix Instant Poison range, Assasination should win hands down with double instant, especially considering that AOE pulls are very rarely armor debuffed. Of course if there were a fight that necessitated a full burn, aoe style, nothing in assassination can compete with Adrenaline Rush FoK.

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Logs aren't needed to see this... it's just logic. I've observed it personally many many times in progress on Sarth with drakes up.

I didn't disagree with you, I actually do agree. The point I was trying to make though is that you can't show it in a WWS which seems to be what everyone bases these comparisons on, right, wrong or otherwise.

I've not looked but I'm suspicious that those "WWS compilations" that people seem so eager to flaunt around are muddied by fights like this.

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Obsidian Sanctum and "benchmark" probably shouldnt be mentioned in the same paragraph, much less sentence.

The closest thing to a actual DPS benchmark we have is Patchwerk. Even then, it's semi-flawed.

You could slightly move too far whilst dipping, and lose some DPS. And for Warriors, the complete absence of any raid damage distorts damage. Same story for Ret Paladins, no incoming damage = no mana = less DPS. Patchwerk also favors classes that rely heavily on long duration, short cooldown buffs. IE: BM Hunters. Classes that have reliable burst but poor longevity seem to shine fairly well.

So even our "benchmark" boss is flawed in many ways.

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WWS reports of Patchwerk kills which are well over 4 minutes aren't really useful to see really competitive numbers. I mean, the fact that someone is in the top 3 on meters with <4k DPS doesn't really say much, because it just means that overall your raid-wide DPS was very low.

Going through all of our Patchwerk parses, the highest any rogue has placed on any of our kills is 5th place. I got it once, and Wodahs got it once. Our most recent kill is: Wow Web Stats

We didn't have our best geared mage in there either, Baron is actually MM instead of BM, and we had 0 Fury Warriors in for the kill (both of whom would've easily beaten our numbers). But as you can see, myself and Wodahs both did respectable damage, yet still weren't able to compete with the people at the top. And we're even getting beaten by DKs now :(. I've gotten some upgrades since then, most notably the dagger off KT, so I expect my numbers to hit ~4.7k this week, but even with that I most likely won't be in the top 3.

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WWS reports of Patchwerk kills which are well over 4 minutes aren't really useful to see really competitive numbers. I mean, the fact that someone is in the top 3 on meters with <4k DPS doesn't really say much, because it just means that overall your raid-wide DPS was very low.

Going through all of our Patchwerk parses, the highest any rogue has placed on any of our kills is 5th place. I got it once, and Wodahs got it once. Our most recent kill is: Wow Web Stats

We didn't have our best geared mage in there either, Baron is actually MM instead of BM, and we had 0 Fury Warriors in for the kill (both of whom would've easily beaten our numbers). But as you can see, myself and Wodahs both did respectable damage, yet still weren't able to compete with the people at the top. And we're even getting beaten by DKs now :(. I've gotten some upgrades since then, most notably the dagger off KT, so I expect my numbers to hit ~4.7k this week, but even with that I most likely won't be in the top 3.

I'm not sure what you mean by "still weren't able to compete with the people at the top." Wodahs was 9% behind Silver (and he's being seriously toned down in 3.0.8), 3.2% behind Puppies and Ephedrine, 2.7% behind Baron, and and 1.7% behind Seratha. I'd hardly call that "unable to compete." Some of Wodahs' gear isn't even optimal, and he's Combat, providing a 2% boost to all the physical DPS in the raid (not to mention coming in behind the currently theorycrafted DPS levels of Mutilate).

(edit) For that matter, your own gear is not especially fantastic and you came in only 3.3% behind Wodahs. I'm not really sure how much more you're looking for.

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Granted I've just started into 10 man Naxx but I've run multiple heroics with a good group of guys in my guild and I've never had a problem not being on #1 DPS. For a long time I was specced mut but slowly I got sick of hunger for blood and having to try and keep it up so often.

I have specced back to Combat and funny enough I'm doing a lot more dps consistently, which is bigger for me then doing more but only when I can keep things 100% up. I'm doing constant 2000+ dps in 5 man groups and haven't checked 10 man, I'll know tommorow once we go back in but I'm starting to see with the right gear and rotations I think combat is catching up to mut simply because for myself I always had a hard time keeping hunger for blood up 100% of the time, does this change as the gear goes up in 10 man? I'm curious to know if mut leaves combat in the dust as I get more naxx gear.

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone's info here because I think it has helped me get to where I am currently, I'd be curious to see how many of you have gone from mut back to combat or if any of you are thinking about it, cause personally atleast until I get some omen of ruin's I think combat is what I will be staying at.

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So, before I get into my analysis, here are the 2 WWS that I'm primarily basing my impressions off of:

Wow Web Stats

Wow Web Stats

These are the last two weeks of Naxx for my guild; I was Mutilate both weeks, and Escoffier (the other well-geared rogue in the guild) was Combat for one and Mutilate for the other.

Lets start by looking at Patchwerk. Both weeks, Escoffier and I are top 5; the only person beating either of us by a significant margin is a hunter, who will soon be nerfed. So while you might argue that this is the one fight we should consistently win and, hence, that our DPS should be bumped up by a couple hundred DPS to ensure this, it's hard to argue that we're not at least competitive.

While we're on the topic: people talking about redipping on Patchwerk are making a mistake. I don't even dip on Patchwerk anymore. Why? Simple. If you're getting topped off over the course of the fight, you're eating chain heal bounces (or whatever) that could be helping heal one of the other tanks. Never mind the fact that each time you dip you lose damage to the stat reduction. And, frankly, if I'm at 20k HP (i.e., full) and I'm getting hit, that means the tank - who was at less than 20k and thus at significant risk of dying - didn't. And me getting splattered instead of a tank is *not* a bad thing. So I'm of the opinion that as long as healers are using Chain Heal or Prayer of Mending or whatever to keep tanks up, melee DPS shouldn't be dipping.

Anyway, moving on to the other fights in the instance: I think the first thing to keep in mind is that movement, by itself, is not bad for rogues. Switching targets certainly is; but attacking a moving boss, or moving around the boss, does not cost us as much DPS as it does a ranged. We can keep autoattacking and mashing specials while running all over the place; a mage has to stop casting FFB for the duration of the move. Hence, fights with movement - i.e. Grobbulus - aren't fundamentally any worse for us. And if you look at damage done to Grobbulus, I finished 3rd one week and Escoffier was 1st the other. Now, you'd be correct in pointing out that a mage utterly worked us all over the first week, so there may be a problem there - but compared to everyone else in the raid, we're more or less okay. Similarly on Thaddius and KT, which, while they may require us to move, they don't really hurt us any more than the ranged DPS - and sure enough, I was 2nd on Thaddius both weeks, and rogues went 1-2 on KT. So I think on fights with movement but not target switching, we're still doing fine.

Now, there are some movement fights - 4 Horsemen, for instance - and some fights with AoEs (Sapphiron) that give us problems, and the rogues fall back into the pack. But that's not really unreasonable - the philosophy is that all classes contribute comparable DPS, and since we're near the top on many fights, it's totally reasonable that we're a bit behind on others. And it's not like we're getting killed on those fights, either - we're middle of the pack instead of top of the pack, but it's not like we're only above the tanks or anything.

Of course, the final sort of fight where we do somewhat poorly is fights with an AoE component - for instance, on my guild's Sarth+3 kill, I was only 6th overall on DPS. But, 1) rogue AoE is being significantly buffed, particularly for Mutilate rogues such as myself, and 2) You bring different people to do different things. Yes, the AoEers are going to have more damage. But you can't have all 15 DPS AoEing; someone has to kill the boss and drakes. And if you start looking at single-target DPS, on that same kill where I was 6th overall, you find that I was top DPS on Sarth and top 3 on 2 out of the 3 drakes. Again, my DPS was very solid... on the stuff I was assigned to kill. And the people assigned to kill different things may have done more, but comparing AoE to single target is not the fairest thing in the world.

So, ultimately, what's the point here? Well, looking through my experience, it's certainly the case that I've been a bit lower on a lot of fights than I might like, so I wouldn't be totally averse to a buff of some sort - but the key point is that it needn't be a large one. If you buffed rogue DPS by 10%, Escoffier and I would be winning close to every fight (particularly after the hunter nerfs). And that's not the stated target of balance. I think if there's going to be a buff at all - and again, I think it's a bit early to say for sure - we're talking at the couple-of-percent level at the most. We don't do well in all circumstances, but we have our job to do on most fights - kill single targets - and we're really pretty solid at it, at least in 25 mans.

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Yea the way I look at it right now for me as long as I'm in the top 3 and I enjoy playing my class and if I can lose a little dps and bring more buffs to the guild thats what I want to do, so thats part of my reason swapping back to combat. Right now we are a heavy melee dps guild as well.

Whats your take on the whole mut versus combat as the gear scales up? I don't know much about it yet considering our guild just now has started doing 10 man naxx and downing bosses, I'm curious to know from more of you that are in the 25 mans and getting more of the gear if the gap between mut and combat eventually gets bigger and bigger??

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If raid leaders are looking at overall dps for a raid instead of specific fights, or roles in fights, they are being shortsighted.

They should be optimizing for success, not for speed of a whole clear. If the rogue does more dps on the boss fight, he is being valuable, as success on the boss is the only variable. If you are wiping consistently to the trash, then the boss will be an even bigger hurdle.

Sure rogues may be unequal in movment, survivability, buffs, etc to some degree, but it is not major, and the differences in healing required are negligible. The only situation I can think of where this isn't the case would be on a fight to fight basis if things like more tanks are required, and only then will you see a big impact in 10 man raid makeup.

Most of the difficulty that people get pugging groups I'd imagine would be attributed to the perception of rogues (true or not), which is perpetuated by crying. I don't think I've ever seen someone turned down from a pug specifically because they were a rogue (melee dps was the closest I've seen). The case is usally a need for tanks or healers.

Well, being able to clear and manage in a timely and concise manner is important to some. Also, in my previous post we are making the assumption rogues are at the top in dps - not 5th or 4th etc.. Unfortunetly, this is not the case. So, sub-par mob dps, and sub-par boss dps. No 'real' raid buffs and even though you discount to some degree, low survivalability and low manueverability - movement fights.

Also, when I make reference to "overall dps" it is not just the raid leader. It is a whole mindset which propogates to the raid itself in how perceptions are formed and utilized. The problem we are facing is that pre-wotlk perhaps boss dps was 'the barometer', but with the advent on so much dps being thrown around by hybrids and other pure-dps classes, the meters have taken a turn. No longer is raid boss dps that important when most other dps can do it better, in most cases. We use to link our boss dps because of disparity between boss/mob dps.. whereas most other current dps now retain a very similiar dps score between the two.

So, in a nutshell. Rogues loose all around.

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Would people posting in this thread kindly stop making assertions that being anywhere below first place in DPS means rogues are doomed? Parses where a rogue in sixth place did barely 5% less than people above him are not convincing, nor are parses where a rogue was dwarfed a hunter, given what we know about patch 3.0.8. This thread is going to rapidly outlive its usefulness if the only purpose it serves is for rogues to whine about not being 1st place every time.

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Just as a note here, folks: I'm fine with this thread existing as long as it remains a constructive discussion of where we're strong, where we're weak, and the overall role of the class right now; however, if it starts getting whiny (and some of you are headed in that direction), I'm going to put a stop to it. This is your one and only warning: whines are no more permissible here than anywhere else on the forums, so don't. And if too many people start to, the thread will get closed. Just so we're clear.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "still weren't able to compete with the people at the top." Wodahs was 9% behind Silver (and he's being seriously toned down in 3.0.8), 3.2% behind Puppies and Ephedrine, 2.7% behind Baron, and and 1.7% behind Seratha. I'd hardly call that "unable to compete." Some of Wodahs' gear isn't even optimal, and he's Combat, providing a 2% boost to all the physical DPS in the raid (not to mention coming in behind the currently theorycrafted DPS levels of Mutilate).

(edit) For that matter, your own gear is not especially fantastic and you came in only 3.3% behind Wodahs. I'm not really sure how much more you're looking for.

Sure, I'm not saying my gear is 100% the best, it isn't. But if you look at everyone else's gear in front of me, they're in the same situation. Some people are slightly better geared than others, but no one is running fully optimal gear. The hunters don't have KT guns, the warlock/DKs still have a lot of upgrades, etc. My gear will get better, but so will theirs. As the gear has been scaling though, we're still consistently falling behind.

My concern is more when everyone is optimally geared, we still will be say, 3% behind the Warlocks/Mages etc., which isn't acceptable. The DPS should be balanced such that Rogues are say, 1-2% ahead of Warlocks, Mages, and Hunters on a fight like Patchwerk, which then balances it out on the vast majority of fights where we have to chase a mob and lose DPS uptime.

I don't think we need a huge buff, but I do think we need to be improved by a couple percent.

EDIT: I would agree this thread is pretty worthless FWIW.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "still weren't able to compete with the people at the top." Wodahs was 9% behind Silver (and he's being seriously toned down in 3.0.8), 3.2% behind Puppies and Ephedrine, 2.7% behind Baron, and and 1.7% behind Seratha. I'd hardly call that "unable to compete." Some of Wodahs' gear isn't even optimal, and he's Combat, providing a 2% boost to all the physical DPS in the raid (not to mention coming in behind the currently theorycrafted DPS levels of Mutilate).

(edit) For that matter, your own gear is not especially fantastic and you came in only 3.3% behind Wodahs. I'm not really sure how much more you're looking for.

I am rather confused here. Rogues are suppose to be strongest in single target dps. Chalon mentioned the warriors were not included, and they would have beaten them, yet - the rogues are not tops. Mind you, I understand you brought up issue with their gear, but we can't say anything about gear or its impact unless we know what the gear level of those who are beating the rogues.

To say someone's gear is lacking in context of unknown variables isn't very useful. I think we'd need lvl or tier breakdown of such to make reasonable assumptions.

The gradients of "being behind" is coloring to try and remove issue. Rogues are behind. Simple.

This thread is going to rapidly outlive its usefulness if the only purpose it serves is for rogues to whine about not being 1st place every time.

Ok. point taken. Show me parses of raids where rogues are 1st once with similiar geared and varied groups. All things being equal, please someone supply the reports that show a rogue in the number one position once, or perhaps twice. The QQ'ing is not about being first every single time, its about being first or second at least once.

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WWS reports can be very easily misleading. Were the rogues in question in possession of all the dps-increasing buffs available? What about the casters? Then we have to look at the gear.

Blizzard has, to my knowledge, never said anything about rogues needing to be number one on stationary fights. We don't necessarily lose DPS on movement fights anyway, for reasons stated above, while casters may.

All the pure dps classes being within 4-5% of each other says a lot about what Blizzard has done for balance already. This thread does nothing to help other rogues understand their class better; all I can see it doing is sloughing off all the anecdotal, whining posts that would be found in other threads and instead having them posted here.

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WWS reports can be very easily misleading. Were the rogues in question in possession of all the dps-increasing buffs available? What about the casters? Then we have to look at the gear.

Blizzard has, to my knowledge, never said anything about rogues needing to be number one on stationary fights. We don't necessarily lose DPS on movement fights anyway, for reasons stated above, while casters may.

All the pure dps classes being within 4-5% of each other says a lot about what Blizzard has done for balance already. This thread does nothing to help other rogues understand their class better; all I can see it doing is sloughing off all the anecdotal, whining posts that would be found in other threads and instead having them posted here.

Actually, they have specifically said this:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> "Bring the player...", DPS, Raid Encounters

If you balance rogues, hunters, locks and mages to all do the same dps on target dummies, then what you find in a raid is that the ranged dps comes out on top because the rogue has to spend a lot of potential dps time on positioning and running out of fires. This isn't true of every encounter, but it is true of a lot. (If there is an encounter where a rogue should shine, it's something like Patchwerk.) So rogue dps on a combat dummy probably needs to be higher so that net dps in a raid is about the same as other classes. Make sense?

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Hmm, I read that blue post, but I must have completely forgotten about it. Regardless, individual WWS reports are still highly subjective. For each individual report, you would need to compare every physical and magical buff/debuff in the raid (remembering that we get dps increases through poisons from magic dps buffs as well). Even then, and especially on modern Patchwerk, I'd say it's very difficult, if not bordering on foolishness, to try to make generalizations about the 'State of Rogues' from these reports.

Blizzard has also stated that they are looking into rogue PvE dps and keeping an eye on things. I agree with Aldriana in that if anything, a couple or a few percent of dps more might be warranted; however, this thread does nothing to narrow down either why we are behind other classes nor what might be done to alleviate this problem.

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