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jilanea

State of Rogues

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I really don't think this is a great place for this type of topic. If I want to read QQ about rogue DPS I would go to blizzards forums. That Being said.

I honestly do not think rogues are that far off. Hunters are being tweaked like others have already stated, so there is one thing that helps. I would also factor in that Patchwork is Undead, so murder does not apply. If you adjust most of those WWS adding in Murder Rogues are looking pretty good. If they buff us now wait till we hit another Patchwork type fight where Murder is in effect and I am sure the cries of Rogues are OP will ring out.

In all honesty how many of these people in the parser are playing there class to the max? I know I do not take advantage of Tricks of the Trade.

Rogue are not in a terrible state, could they use a little polishing? Yes probably, but do we need an overhaul no.

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Additional clarification: complaining that the thread isn't about a particularly useful topic isn't really helping the discussion either.

I'm letting this conversation live for the moment because I think there's a reasonable discussion to be had about the strengths and weaknesses of rogue DPS - what sorts of things we do well, and what sorts of things we don't. That sort of information is useful to us, and it's useful to raid leaders. If people aren't up to having that discussion, so be it - I'll close the thread. But I'd like to at least give people a chance.

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I have a feeling quite a few of us might be suffering from the "we aren't that badly geared, look it's epic!" syndrome due to the easily accessible heroics and badge gear that's in the game at the moment.

As in, a fully geared T7,5 rogue should have, at least, the potential to truly shine if played correctly and all experience has shown that we do scale very well with gear.

I also have a feeling of deja vu; Rogue DPS is horrible in Karazhan! Buff! Nerf casters! and so on.

It's a bit worrying that we where scaled in beta with a buggy Master Poisoner, but we'll see how all that pans out.

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The gradients of "being behind" is coloring to try and remove issue. Rogues are behind. Simple.

Ok. point taken. Show me parses of raids where rogues are 1st once with similiar geared and varied groups. All things being equal, please someone supply the reports that show a rogue in the number one position once, or perhaps twice. The QQ'ing is not about being first every single time, its about being first or second at least once.

The amount by which we're behind is extremely important. Saying otherwise is just willfully ignoring the truth so you can generate pity. As for the second paragraph, I believe Aldriana has two parses linked in another thread on this very forum that demonstrate rogues coming out on top.

(edit) It was actually in this exact thread:

Wow Web Stats

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I don't want to pick apart that parse, but I do think it bears noting that while yes, the Rogues did good DPS in that parse, several of the other classes are not performing anywhere near their potential. This may be due to gear or buffs or who knows what, but those parses by themselves don't really prove much. It's also probably relevant that both rogues have markedly better gear than the Warlocks (Aldriana moreso) yet are not very much ahead in damage done.

Anyways, back to the specific topic...

The best fight for Mutilate in Naxx is without a doubt Maexxna. First of all, we get the murder bonus, and second of all, it's one of the few fights where there's AE that FoK actually ends up being really good. The spiders die so quickly so the fact that you can't use it very often doesn't hurt. I sadly don't have a parse for our Maexxna kill this week, but I was in first place pretty handily. Now, to be fair our hunters were on wall duty, so that obviously affects the DPS, but I'm still fairly confident I'd be able to beat them on that particular fight.

I wonder if part of the "fix" for rogue DPS in Ulduar will simply be that most bosses will be murderable (I'd imagine it has a lot of Humanoids and Giants). But, that's bad news for the people running Combat.

Regarding the FoK change, to be honest I think it will have minimal affect on our overall placement in trash DPS. Yes it's certainly a buff, but outside of getting 3-4 Overkill FoKs off at the start, we're still going to be limited to 1 every 5s and only if all else we're doing is auto attacking. We'll do more trash damage without a doubt, but we will still be behind those who can AE continuously.

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On your first point: the damage of the other two rogues strikes me as a bit less relevant - neither raided as a rogue in TBC. They're both reroll/trials, and thus have a bit less gear and a lot less experience with the class. That's why I focused on myself and Escoffier for purposes of analysis.

On the gear point: yes, we're pretty well geared, but it's worth noting that some of what we're wearing we've picked up since those parses; I didn't have the Maly chest, quest neck, or T7.25 legs until after both parses, and the first one I was using T6 belt + boots still. And, for instance, Escoffier picked up Webbed Death this past week, meaning that his mutilate parse was done with a Paper Cutter. So yes, there's a gear factor... but it's not as large as you might think.

And again, I'm not arguing that the class is necessarily totally without problems - simply that we can and do compete at the top levels on single target fights - our forte - and the fact that we fall behind on certain fights is not by itself a cause for concern.

Re: AoE. With Focused Attacks, whenever we AoE a large pack we will get nontrivial energy regeneration; with a 40% crit rate and AoEing 10 targets, we regenerate 16 energy per FoK, hence we'll be able to FoK once every 3.4 seconds. And more than that with Overkill up, and we can toss in a CB to get even more regen. Like, I don't think we're going to have damage matching a true AoE class, but it's starting to look distinctly viable - particularly on larger packs.

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Again, forgive me for being a little "out of the loop" about all this, but is Rogue DPS being accurately predicted by the spreadsheets right now (within 5% or so, or within reason... clearly a rogue can't perform in fights where movement/range is a problem)? If not, then I'd say it's a little harder to dismiss rogues as being "behind" than if the WWS parses were meeting the theoretical maximum. Maybe (incoming blasphemy) it's easy to be a mediocre rogue, but incredibly hard to be the rogue that Blizzard expects? If so, that's a problem, I'd think.

But I don't know if that's the case. I just don't like running straight to the, "this isn't our fault" shelter after getting 3rd in meters on Patchwerk or something. But that's just me :-/

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Re: AoE. With Focused Attacks, whenever we AoE a large pack we will get nontrivial energy

And yet they took that away from potency. I am mystified sometimes at the reasoning behind their choices.

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On your first point: the damage of the other two rogues strikes me as a bit less relevant - neither raided as a rogue in TBC. They're both reroll/trials, and thus have a bit less gear and a lot less experience with the class. That's why I focused on myself and Escoffier for purposes of analysis.

Well, I didn't mean the other rogues. What I meant was, for instance what is your Hunter doing? The best Mage in your guild (Magekg afaik!) isn't on the kill, and I'd wonder where he'd place. The top Warlock should probably be doing more damage. You don't have any Fury Warriors in the kill. I'm not sure what your DPS DK is doing etc. Don't get me wrong, you and Escoffier are doing solid damage, but this sort of proves the problem with WWS. In either direction, you are never going to get an equally skilled/geared control case where you can definitively say "yes we are behind" or "no we are fine" when it's a difference of maybe 3%.

Taking into account all the changes in 3.0.8, I suspect we are still fairly consistently going to be 2-3% behind Warlocks, Mages, Hunters, and Fury Warriors on a fight like Patchwerk. And while it seems like a small percent, I personally don't feel that's acceptible. We should be 1-2% ahead on this particular fight.

Again, forgive me for being a little "out of the loop" about all this, but is Rogue DPS being accurately predicted by the spreadsheets right now (within 5% or so, or within reason... clearly a rogue can't perform in fights where movement/range is a problem)? If not, then I'd say it's a little harder to dismiss rogues as being "behind" than if the WWS parses were meeting the theoretical maximum. Maybe (incoming blasphemy) it's easy to be a mediocre rogue, but incredibly hard to be the rogue that Blizzard expects? If so, that's a problem, I'd think.

Anecdotally, I can tell you that my DPS aligns fairly well with the "spreadsheet" DPS on something like Patchwerk, +/- 2% generally I would say, which is fairly accurate. It's not a matter of not being able to perform at the theoretical maximum.

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I have a feeling quite a few of us might be suffering from the "we aren't that badly geared, look it's epic!" syndrome due to the easily accessible heroics and badge gear that's in the game at the moment.

As in, a fully geared T7,5 rogue should have, at least, the potential to truly shine if played correctly and all experience has shown that we do scale very well with gear.

I also have a feeling of deja vu; Rogue DPS is horrible in Karazhan! Buff! Nerf casters! and so on.

It's a bit worrying that we where scaled in beta with a buggy Master Poisoner, but we'll see how all that pans out.

While I understand your sentiment about not jumping to conclusions, since this expansion DID just come out a month ago, but I think many of us are restless in the fact that we're not preforming as well as we did in Pre-TBC days. Given, we were far and beyond better than we probably should of been, but our dominance in dps was demonstrated from the get-go.

In TBC, until rogues got their hands on Glaives, we didn't see our dps flourish that much. In T5 content, I suffered behind Fury warriors wielding Arena gear (a separate issue, however the demonstration of lagging behind such classes his still constant even now), as well as warlocks that spec destro and know how to hit the Shadowbolt key over and over again. We shouldn't have to STACK gear to become the best dps'ing class in the game, it should be more or less INNATE similar to what classic WoW was like.

That doesn't mean that:

1. Rogues should always top the meters

2. A well played character of ANY class shouldn't be able to beat a dumb or sloppy rogue

3. Rogues shouldn't have to get any gear, just run around with blues and win all the time.

However, I think the class as a whole needs a talent bump or some kind of mechanic changed (I'm looking at you Glancing Blows) that make us more competitive with less stress put upon gear.

I'm rather geared out for a 10 man raid rogue, and I'm still falling behind with a Boomkin in raid. Perhaps I'm not preforming at the top of my game and he really is just a very good player, but he's taunted me many times 'I'm spamming wrath, lol'. Not in a vindictive way, but just showing the futility of complaining about HaT when other classes are doing the exact same thing, or have in the past: They're pushing one button and winning.

No that's not fair, and I'm not condoning the usage of HaT (bugged form), but rather I'm just frustrated overall that while we could say 'don't spec this, because it's basically cheating and has no skill behind it', what is saying that other classes aren't doing the same thing, but it's intended? Yes, Boomkins and Warlocks don't press one button anymore, but some still do, and they still can be a rogue should their gear line up.

I dunno, I just got a KT claw so perhaps my dps will spike back up to the forefront, and maybe the changes to Fan of Knives will provide us enough AE to keep up, but in cases like Patchwerk, where we're suppose to be the primo choice for dps, and we're falling behind Mages, Warlocks, and Warriors. No matter how you slice it, that's just not fair to our class as a whole. While raid leaders don't say 'we don't need rogues, what's the point in bringing them', I personally feel, 'Why the hell should I take up a raid slot when someone can be placed in my spot that can do 105% of my damage, with less than half the problems with survivability related to melee ranged abilities?'

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Blizzard can very very easily tweak rogue damage in pve without affecting pvp. Change glancing blows, or, and this seems to be blasphemy to Blizzard, make some abilitys do less damage on players than they do on monsters. Why they pretend that they can't up rogue dps without affecting pvp is something I really can't understand. They make the rules we play by, they make numbers work the way they work against mobs and players, they can do whatever they want to do.

Their repeated assertions that they don't want to do anything beause it will affect pvp is getting very old.

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However, I think the class as a whole needs a talent bump or some kind of mechanic changed (I'm looking at you Glancing Blows) that make us more competitive with less stress put upon gear.

Glancing Blows as a whole getting chaged would push Titan's Grip even further up the food chain.

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Blizzard can very very easily tweak rogue damage in pve without affecting pvp. Change glancing blows, or, and this seems to be blasphemy to Blizzard, make some abilitys do less damage on players than they do on monsters. Why they pretend that they can't up rogue dps without affecting pvp is something I really can't understand.

They want you to play World of Warcraft. They don't want you to be playing World of Warcraft: PVP sometimes and World of Warcraft: PVE other times. Changing things to work differently for players and mobs is something they do as a matter of last resort if absolutely nothing else will work. This is for both consistency (When you press Blind in PVP, it does the same thing as in PVE) and to reduce the possibility of bugs being introduced.

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The upcoming Fan of Knives changes have been nagging me. I'm not particularly math-efficient, but off the top of my head, it really isn't a saving grace by any means. What does a no-CD FoK mean to me? It means I can pop out one extra AoE every ~4-5 seconds. No-one can deny that this is clearly a DPS boost in a trash/AoE environment... but when FoK comes to mind, the first limitation I consider is never the cooldown, but the energy cost. Efficient use of the core ability requires you to take advantage of a limited synergy between two other talents: Overkill and Adrenaline Rush. The reason I bolded that text is to emphasise that you're required to spec deep into a tree in order to use an ability efficiently. You're not required to spec into Deep Sub in order to make Tricks of the Trade viable, for example. So even without a cooldown, in general circumstances, we're limited to 2 FoK's every ~8 seconds. An improvement, yes... but hardly a solution. The whole angle they're taking with it just seems clunky to me.

If they were to introduce a Glyph which reduced the damage and energy cost of FoK by 30%, I'd actually use it.

Ultimately, I'm trying to understand if I'm really approaching the FoK changes with the right mentality, or if there's something I'm missing? Whilst there are alot of class changes coming in 3.0.8, the only Rogue one is FoK - so clearly the developers feel as though this is our solution.

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Ok, im just going to add a few cents. Personally i think rogue isnt performing to blizzard perception of what they want the class to be. Or at least how i understand theyre perception to be. Being a melee class with no other option other than to do damage, we should be no.1 on most encounters providing theyre playing to a good standard. Maybe im being ignorant ill leave that for others to decide.

HaT rogues are topping DPS but only due to it being a bugged spec. I myself dont agree with being a bugged spec because in the end of the day thats not helping anyone really. Its going to get changed, your getting innacurate parses and finishing 2nd for your guildies means alot more then the elusive number 1. So ive stuck with mutilate here is a half Naxx clear for my guild.

Wow Web Stats (I was running with Sinister RevengeMH Omen of Ruin OH armoury has got me with different)

At the time that was taken i have aquired a few few upgrades so i could dish out a bit more, nonetheless i thhink from that rogues should do more. Or them less. On some fights i of course made a few mistakes which i can only learn from. However on the fights where mistakes were not made i feel kid of let down by the fact of what rogues are in relation to what they should in my opinion be. If i did do anything wrong on Patchwerk+Gluth for example i would like to know and react accordingly. Apart from the SnD drop from the add massacre on Gluth.

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Rogues aren't in a horrible shape, but we're not really optimal either. But some mechanics that seem to be pretty core to wow as a whole seem to make it hard to keep us up.

-Weaponry: rogues rely more on their weapons than on the rest of their gear when compared to other classes. Just calculate how much AP your weapon's base damage would translate to in, say, a Sinister Strike, or just a simple white melee hit, and be amazed. Not a single piece of the rest of our gear has such a huge effect.

-As a class relying on dual wielding, (Anybody inventing a single-hand spec that doesn't do more than 5% less DPS than any spec wielding 2 weapons deserves a Nobell prize) with not a single option not to, the dual wield penalty hits us harder than any of the other classes. Yes, we all spec DW to compensate, but it's still 28% less chance to hit on both hands verses 50% more of 50 lower damage on one hand, aka still 25% less damage on one hand aka ~12.5% less damage (depending on weaponry) overall if that culprit hadn't been there.

-No AOE, not even FoK without cooldown will compensate for that. Yes, it will hit hard, but it's still 50 energy, so you may be able to pull off 2 of them quickly, after that you're limited to only one every 5 seconds. The only thing we know, is that GC mentioned tweaking down some classes, and most probably meant toning down some overpowered AOE abilities.

-Single target class. We're currently not optimal on single targets. Future weaponry may or may not solve this, since we scale so well with weapons. But other classes gained some scaling as well, so we'll have to wait and see what happens here.

-Melee range. Blizz learned not to use too many 360 degree cleaves anymore, but it basically stopped there. Bosses still have other short range aoe's and abilities that hurt melee classes more that ranged classes, that force downtime on melee classes more often than on ranged classes. Even in those fights that are considered "ideal" to rogues, we have to reposition occasionally, to stick at the back of the boss. Just tell a ranged class that he has to stay in a 3 square feet zone that may unexpectedly move a few feet away during a fight, and that about once a minute, if he wants to deal damage, and they'll have a grasp of the problems we're in.. So far, I've only seen bosses that either hurt melee classes more than any other class, or hurt melee equally to any other class (hello spell reflection shield / physical reflection shield, hello random patch on the ground that discourages people from standing in the spot where they do). But even on the "similarly" classable penalty, ranged classes can simply start dealing damage again when the penalty is lifted, while melee classes have to move anywhere from 10 to 100 ft to get back on target.

So basically, rogues suffer various penalties in stats and encounters alike. We have amazing potential, but that potential is currently more than negated by all the penalties we suffer. It doesn't hurt to have some penalties. Getting through those makes the game interesting. But those penalties should be realistic when compared to the relatively little problems other classes have. By "equalizing" the damage between classes and specs, Blizz actually emphasized the penalties that were already in place to keep rogue damage in check.

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So the State of Rogues is:

A little weak with poor gear (will sort itself out as new gear comes in although the non Naxx finishing Rogues will be a bit screwed for a while).

A little weak without buffs.

A little weak on trash (should be sorted out to some extent with incoming changes).

Kinda buggy.

Pretty much fine apart from this.

Regarding buffs not sure what they should do to address this, maybe engineers could make a class dummy that fills in for one classes missing raid buff(not engineer use only and only one up at a time). I'd give them tier 1 shoulders and make them make boasting emotes about their non existent dps.

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I really don't think this is a great place for this type of topic. If I want to read QQ about rogue DPS I would go to blizzards forums. That Being said.

I honestly do not think rogues are that far off. Hunters are being tweaked like others have already stated, so there is one thing that helps. I would also factor in that Patchwork is Undead, so murder does not apply. If you adjust most of those WWS adding in Murder Rogues are looking pretty good. If they buff us now wait till we hit another Patchwork type fight where Murder is in effect and I am sure the cries of Rogues are OP will ring out.

In all honesty how many of these people in the parser are playing there class to the max? I know I do not take advantage of Tricks of the Trade.

Rogue are not in a terrible state, could they use a little polishing? Yes probably, but do we need an overhaul no.

The thing about Murder, yes obviously we'd do more damage on a murderable mob, but what about combat rogues? Keep in mind, combat also gives a 2% physical debuff which is very important for your raid and when you are in a guild like mine(where we have one rogue since the other two already rerolled due to the performance of rogues) I am basically forced to spec combat for progression and I sure as hell do not want to be doing subpar DPS in a new instance. While I do think your point is valid for Mut rogues, I just can't say the same for combat.

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Rogues aren't in a horrible shape, but we're not really optimal either. But some mechanics that seem to be pretty core to wow as a whole seem to make it hard to keep us up.

-Weaponry: rogues rely more on their weapons than on the rest of their gear when compared to other classes. Just calculate how much AP your weapon's base damage would translate to in, say, a Sinister Strike, or just a simple white melee hit, and be amazed. Not a single piece of the rest of our gear has such a huge effect.

-As a class relying on dual wielding, (Anybody inventing a single-hand spec that doesn't do more than 5% less DPS than any spec wielding 2 weapons deserves a Nobell prize) with not a single option not to, the dual wield penalty hits us harder than any of the other classes. Yes, we all spec DW to compensate, but it's still 28% less chance to hit on both hands verses 50% more of 50 lower damage on one hand, aka still 25% less damage on one hand aka ~12.5% less damage (depending on weaponry) overall if that culprit hadn't been there.

-No AOE, not even FoK without cooldown will compensate for that. Yes, it will hit hard, but it's still 50 energy, so you may be able to pull off 2 of them quickly, after that you're limited to only one every 5 seconds. The only thing we know, is that GC mentioned tweaking down some classes, and most probably meant toning down some overpowered AOE abilities.

-Single target class. We're currently not optimal on single targets. Future weaponry may or may not solve this, since we scale so well with weapons. But other classes gained some scaling as well, so we'll have to wait and see what happens here.

-Melee range. Blizz learned not to use too many 360 degree cleaves anymore, but it basically stopped there. Bosses still have other short range aoe's and abilities that hurt melee classes more that ranged classes, that force downtime on melee classes more often than on ranged classes. Even in those fights that are considered "ideal" to rogues, we have to reposition occasionally, to stick at the back of the boss. Just tell a ranged class that he has to stay in a 3 square feet zone that may unexpectedly move a few feet away during a fight, and that about once a minute, if he wants to deal damage, and they'll have a grasp of the problems we're in.. So far, I've only seen bosses that either hurt melee classes more than any other class, or hurt melee equally to any other class (hello spell reflection shield / physical reflection shield, hello random patch on the ground that discourages people from standing in the spot where they do). But even on the "similarly" classable penalty, ranged classes can simply start dealing damage again when the penalty is lifted, while melee classes have to move anywhere from 10 to 100 ft to get back on target.

So basically, rogues suffer various penalties in stats and encounters alike. We have amazing potential, but that potential is currently more than negated by all the penalties we suffer. It doesn't hurt to have some penalties. Getting through those makes the game interesting. But those penalties should be realistic when compared to the relatively little problems other classes have. By "equalizing" the damage between classes and specs, Blizz actually emphasized the penalties that were already in place to keep rogue damage in check.

Okay, it's actually sort of impressive quite how wrong you are across the board on this. I'm not sure you've made a single point I actually agree with. Lets go down the list, shall we?

1) Weapons are highly important to us. Well, yes, that's true, but there's two caveats here. First, weapons are important to every class. Top caster weapons have 150 spell damage more than the best blues, while a top chestpiece only has 150 spell power on it in the first place. So we're hardly the only class for whom weapons are a large part of our success. Second, I think you overestimate how important weapons actually are. I mean, lets be clear, they're good, to be sure; but the difference between a Mutilate rogue wielding dual Webbed Deaths and one using dual Paper Cutters is significantly smaller than the difference between a rogue wearing 4-pc T7.25 versus a rogue in optimal dungeon blues for those slots. So while weapons might be the most important individual slot, it's by less than a factor of two in most cases.

2) DW Spec gimps us. Quite the opposite, actually; relative to a single 2 handed weapon, even after the extra 19% miss penalty, DW Spec is pretty well balanced - the fact that we have significant means to mitigate the DW penalties makes it that much stronger. Like, it's worth noting that until the advent of the DK, the majority of top DPS meleers dual-wielded. I mean, ret pallies don't, but Fury has historically beaten arms for DPS, and DW enhancement shamans have always destroyed shamans using a 2Her. Basically, DW is a distinct advantage for most classes that have the option - most of them choose to, even when they don't have to. So saying "we're forced to use by far the most efficient means of damage generation, and this is mitigated by the fact that we have by far the best talents to mitigate it's penalties" is just silly. Yes, we Dual Wield. That's a good thing.

3) AoE. Okay, so we're behind on AoE. Maybe. I'm not actually convinced of that. In a raid-buffed scenario, I usually have 1h weapon damage around 1100. So when I FoK, that's about 2000 base damage... multiplied by 1.5, since I'm using daggers, which makes 3000. And with a 40% crit rate, that quickly turns into 4000. This will of course be mitigated by armor down to 2100 or so, but when you add in the poison procs we're back up around 2.5 per cast. Now, against, say, 10 targets, expected energy regen per cast is around 16; hence, each one, net, only costs me 34 energy. So, in the first 3 seconds of AoE, I do over 2500 DPS, at which point I drop to a pathetic 800. Assuming I don't use Cold Blood, or Vanish -> Overkill, or any other tricks. Still, over, say 15 seconds of AoE, even starting unstealthed and using no cooldowns, I deliver an average somewhat over 1200 DPS per target. And the more targets there are, the better the situation looks. Now, I don't have a real good feeling how much dps caster AoE does, but I will say that on 3-Drake Sarth our top mage's Blizzard was ticking for about 850, 1700 crit, which works out to around 1100 DPS. So I think on the raw damage scale, we're not doing too badly.

The caveat, of course, is that this only works if there are lots of targets; against 4 targets, the expected energy regen drops to a feeble 8 per cast, dropping sustained DPS to only 600. Though you still get a nice burst at the beginning. So, yes, when AoEing 3 or 4 targets, the true AoE will beat us. But on large packs, I don't see any reason why rogues won't compete with any other class.

4) Single target class. Yes, we're better on single targets. Yes, we don't always win... but good rogues are consistently pretty close to the top spot. We might need a few minor tweaks, but we certainly don't need any major ones.

5) Melee range. One, there are as many melee DPS specs as there are ranged DPS specs, so we're hardly unique in that disadvantage - and we get more than the usual number of tools for avoiding them. Moreover, I think what's often neglected in this sort of discussion are the advantages of being melee - for instance, the fact that one can move and DPS at the same time. When a flame wall comes through on Sarth, the ranged have to stop casting, move, and start casting again. When there's a void zone on KT, they have to stop casting, move, and start casting again. Whereas a rogue... moves and keeps nuking full strength the whole time. I'm not saying that there aren't disadvantages to being melee, but there are most certainly advantages as well.

Basically: yes, we may have some problems as a class (though I'm not wholly convinced), but these are not the issues I would have chosen to single out.

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The amount by which we're behind is extremely important. Saying otherwise is just willfully ignoring the truth so you can generate pity. As for the second paragraph, I believe Aldriana has two parses linked in another thread on this very forum that demonstrate rogues coming out on top.

(edit) It was actually in this exact thread:

Wow Web Stats

While the DPS is good for both rogues in that parse, (I believe chalon covered this, but I would like to add my opinion as well) its simply not good enough when Hunters, Mages, Warlocks, and Warriors should all be doing 5k DPS or more on patch. Meanwhile, my current best is 4.7 without being Tricksed or having a 2% physical debuff, is having me sit around 7th or 8th and I can't help but be unsatisfied with the numbers.

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I'd like to make the eternal caution about comparing between parses. Yes, other classes have posted 5k or even 6k DPS. But I bet they didn't have 7 healers and two of their better ranged DPS sitting. Point being: DPS in s a 3.5 min parse will always appear lower than than in a 3 minute parse, and that will always be lower than in a 2:30 parse, due to lower activated buff uptime.

For reference: the second of those WWS is ranked 608 on WWS at the moment. I pulled up parses 606 through 610 - the 5 that are closest in fight duration - and the top DPS numbers in those are as follows:

5197, with 2 people over 5000

6006, HaT rogue, only people over 5000 are 3 HaT rogues

4983, HaT rogue, no one over 5000

5746, HaT rogue, with the only other people to break 5000 being hunters (who are being nerfed)

5105, Hunter, who's being nerfed. No one else over 5000.

5 Parses, and with the exception of soon-to-be-nerfed hunters and HaT rogues, only 2 people managed to break 5k. Sure, if you look at 3 min parses you'll find a lot more - but comparing to fights of comparable duration and hence heroism uptime, the 4700 and 4900 posted in the WWS I linked are very very strong.

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While we're on the topic: people talking about redipping on Patchwerk are making a mistake. I don't even dip on Patchwerk anymore. Why? Simple. If you're getting topped off over the course of the fight, you're eating chain heal bounces (or whatever) that could be helping heal one of the other tanks. Never mind the fact that each time you dip you lose damage to the stat reduction. And, frankly, if I'm at 20k HP (i.e., full) and I'm getting hit, that means the tank - who was at less than 20k and thus at significant risk of dying - didn't. And me getting splattered instead of a tank is *not* a bad thing. So I'm of the opinion that as long as healers are using Chain Heal or Prayer of Mending or whatever to keep tanks up, melee DPS shouldn't be dipping.

Unless I miss something, dipping in on Patchwerk does nothing aside from seriously hurting combat dps anyways (lower % health than patchwerk). Hateful Strike doesn't work the exact same way on patchwerk than it does on supremus. It hits people 2nd and 3rd on list with highest HP, and a rogue shouldn't be there, as long as you let your tanks eat one first at the start of the fight.

--

Anyways, regarding the rogue general dps, the problem really isn't the 100-200 more or less dps we can push or not. The problem is the amount of complexity involved for pushing decent dps, and the core issues that kind of are ignored by the vast majority of the community, and therefor developers aswell.

1) The majority of WoW raiding community knows that BM hunters do too much dps and have experienced it themselves. On the other hand the majority of WoW community believes that Rogues do extremly low dps, even though that's not true. Why is that?

The reason is that playing a BM hunter at a decent level is much, much easier compared to a combat/mutilate rogue right now and therefor majority of hunters can do it. When we talk to our hunters after some fights it's always like "oh look, I played perfectly there, made 10-15 perfect decisions during that fight, had perfect rotation going, used my chance-on-hit buffs perfectly, YET, you still beat me by spaming 2 buttons".

Yes, we all like to have a complex game, but when the complexity gets out of hand, you will have A) an extremly hard time to play perfectly on chaotic fights, B) the difference between top rogue and a medium one will suddenly get too much.

2) There are alot of core issues that somehow we all manage to ignore, yet they would all contribute indirectly to our potential dps. Few examples:

-Mutilate needs 2 fast daggers to work best, even though naturally it should be the other way around.

-Our utility poison beats our dps poison on damage.

-Best combat dps spec requires the more or less stupid combination of the "perfect fist and perfect dagger weapon speed".

-Our combat dagger spec is STILL not working. The skill that should naturally be the benchmark of the class. This one is kind of annoying and disappointing by now, even though in general I don't promote whining.

-There is just a single PvE talent (out of 9 available talents) on tier 2-4 of our subtlety tree.

Those are just a few obvious problems that the class is suffering from. If anything, in my opinion the rogue community should make it clear to the developers that before adding more "percent" damage here and there, there are still alot of tweaking needed in the class-mechanisms department, so the class plays more smooth, makes more sense and is easier to understand.

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Glancing Blows as a whole getting chaged would push Titan's Grip even further up the food chain.

Then do it the other way round, make it part of a talent that we aleady have to reduce glancing blow damage. it's still something that would affect pve without affecting pvp in any shape or form.

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To broaden the topic a little, I feel a large reason that so many rogues are laser-focused on their dps numbers is it's hard to find another way in which rogues contribute to a raid. Many classes have defining abilities like buffs, totems, combat res, dispels and purges, raid cooldowns longer than 5 min, protective taunts and bubbles, traps, etc etc etc. However the core rogue design, since release, has really three supporting poles.

1. Very high dps on a single target

2. Stealth

3. Target control with stuns, gouges, poisons, blind (aka stunlock)

When you get down to it, there is not much else defining about a rogue. There's a good disarm ability that has not been used in pve design, a misdirect, and.... evasion?

Blizzard has been very reluctant to improve class dps in part because the other two elements of playing a rogue are extremely strong in pvp already, and they don't wish to overtly influence that part of the game.

Still, the fact that only the first one has any relevance at all in PvE situations is to my mind sort of a waste of the class strengths. I always wished that Blizzard would try a way to incorporate some of the other meaningful things about playing a rogue into boss encounters. I won't post my ideas since wishlisting is discouraged, but it certainly is not impossible to incorporate aspects of 2 and 3 into pve encounters that would not be gimmicky, or overpowered, but make raids grateful to have excellent rogues available.

Lest you think I am being too negative towards rogues, I think they are not the only ones with this problem - hunters are nearly as bad off, for example.

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Unless I miss something, dipping in on Patchwerk does nothing aside from seriously hurting combat dps anyways (lower % health than patchwerk). Hateful Strike doesn't work the exact same way on patchwerk than it does on supremus. It hits people 2nd and 3rd on list with highest HP, and a rogue shouldn't be there, as long as you let your tanks eat one first at the start of the fight.

--

Anyways, regarding the rogue general dps, the problem really isn't the 100-200 more or less dps we can push or not. The problem is the amount of complexity involved for pushing decent dps, and the core issues that kind of are ignored by the vast majority of the community, and therefor developers aswell.

1) The majority of WoW raiding community knows that BM hunters do too much dps and have experienced it themselves. On the other hand the majority of WoW community believes that Rogues do extremly low dps, even though that's not true. Why is that?

The reason is that playing a BM hunter at a decent level is much, much easier compared to a combat/mutilate rogue right now and therefor majority of hunters can do it. When we talk to our hunters after some fights it's always like "oh look, I played perfectly there, made 10-15 perfect decisions during that fight, had perfect rotation going, used my chance-on-hit buffs perfectly, YET, you still beat me by spaming 2 buttons".

Yes, we all like to have a complex game, but when the complexity gets out of hand, you will have A) an extremly hard time to play perfectly on chaotic fights, B) the difference between top rogue and a medium one will suddenly get too much.

2) There are alot of core issues that somehow we all manage to ignore, yet they would all contribute indirectly to our potential dps. Few examples:

-Mutilate needs 2 fast daggers to work best, even though naturally it should be the other way around.

-Our utility poison beats our dps poison on damage.

-Best combat dps spec requires the more or less stupid combination of the "perfect fist and perfect dagger weapon speed".

-Our combat dagger spec is STILL not working. The skill that should naturally be the benchmark of the class. This one is kind of annoying and disappointing by now, even though in general I don't promote whining.

-There is just a single PvE talent (out of 9 available talents) on tier 2-4 of our subtlety tree.

Those are just a few obvious problems that the class is suffering from. If anything, in my opinion the rogue community should make it clear to the developers that before adding more "procent" damage here and there, there are still alot of tweaking needed in the class-mechanisms department, so the class plays more smooth, makes more sense and is easier to understand.

Two fast daggers in both hands being the best thing for assasination they shouldn't have even let through Beta, it's completely counterintuitive.

The next exchant up from mongoose reducing armour as well as increasing damage? It's an insult to melee that they even put that in the game, it needs to be changed.

I've specced HAT and my damage has increased from combat fist/dagger even though theres no other HAT rogue in our 25's, nearly all rogues in my guild have stopped playing or rerolled. This rather awkard sub talent clearly shouldn't be our best dps, and untill it's fixed there's no way to tell how rogues are really doing apart from the parses of the few left who haven't specced it.

No buffs brought to the raid that aren't totaly negated by having another class there that replicates and makes worthless our damage debuff, a debuff that the majority of players won't even notice that rogues are giving when we do give it. Why where death knights given horn of winter as a buff, they already do so much else, surely if any class was to be given a buff that increased agility it should have been rogues.

There are problems with the class, I'd hope that we'll be allowed to discuss those reasonably.

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