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Faerdael

WotLK Gem Index

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I think it was MaxDPS that suggested I use ArP. (What a mistake that was)

The spreadsheet was defaulted to Agi I believe, but whilst I was testing that out I found that Marksman did more self buffed DPS than BM.. which I know isn't true because I've seen my 25 man Marksman and BM DPS meters and BM is ahead by a mile. So that's not telling me much.

I think it's just user error in the spreadsheet itself (I'm thinking in the 'rotation' section), but you'd think the thread labeled "WotLK Gem Index" would be the place for gem-related questions (such as 'was gemming ArP a good decision')?

Yes, using MaxDPS for anything at all is a mistake.

Plus, common sense says gemming ArP is bad for all the reasons Faerdael laid out.

Edit: I also just noticed this phrase:

I found that Marksman did more self buffed DPS than BM.. which I know isn't true because I've seen my 25 man Marksman and BM DPS meters and BM is ahead by a mile. So that's not telling me much.

You are not self buffed in a 25 man raid.

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1) Yes, using MaxDPS for anything at all is a mistake.

2) Threads don't exist to tell you answers to questions that the spreadsheet will empirically evaluate based on your gear, talents, and glyphs better than we could anyway.

Plus, common sense says gemming ArP is bad for all the reasons Faerdael laid out.

Spreadsheet also assumes that I've got enough knowledge in complex calculations to tell me how to gem (which I mentioned earlier, it defaulted to Agi)

I use the handy 'plug-in my gear' feature, try to guess my rotation, and see if the numbers match up with what I see on recount on a target dummy. I don't use the spreadsheet as my holy grail of information, I'm using it as an additional reference (just like the EJ Forums here and MaxDPS).

But again since ArP was not listed in the original post and me (being the observant person I am) asked a question about ArP gems and I got my reply.

Now I'm sitting here typing a defense against why I'm not asking MS Excel questions about ArP.

edit:

You are not self buffed in a 25 man raid.

Obvious statement of the century. If my solo self buffed DPS is higher in Marksman than it is in BM, logically I would think my Marks DPS would be that much higher when you add Kings, Might, Leader of the Pack, etc. For whatever reason, BM seems to be scaling better with buffs or at least with my gear availability (not to mention the apparent Chimera bugs I've been having with it; getting parried, half the shot being resisted, etc). In addition, I don't feel like using 25 mans as my testing ground for new specs (I'm pretty sure that would tick a few officers off), so until they come up with some sort of raid DPS simulation area where I can slap on full raid buffs and beat up a target dummy, self buffed DPS is all I have to test on.

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Obvious statement of the century. If my solo self buffed DPS is higher in Marksman than it is in BM, logically I would think my Marks DPS would be that much higher when you add Kings, Might, Leader of the Pack, etc. For whatever reason, BM seems to be scaling better with buffs or at least with my gear availability (not to mention the apparent Chimera bugs I've been having with it; getting parried, half the shot being resisted, etc). In addition, I don't feel like using 25 mans as my testing ground for new specs (I'm pretty sure that would tick a few officers off), so until they come up with some sort of raid DPS simulation area where I can slap on full raid buffs and beat up a target dummy, self buffed DPS is all I have to test on.

That would be all fine and good in your logic except the BM's pet benefits more from the raid buffs as well which would leap frog him ahead.

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In addition, I don't feel like using 25 mans as my testing ground for new specs (I'm pretty sure that would tick a few officers off), so until they come up with some sort of raid DPS simulation area where I can slap on full raid buffs and beat up a target dummy, self buffed DPS is all I have to test on.

Then use common sense. If the first post in the gem thread, which spells out the phrase gem prioritization, and the spreadsheet, (which is, by the way, as close to a Holy Grail as you are going to get), both do not breathe a word about Armor Penetration, what's the better assumption: that somehow, it slipped under the collective Elitist Jerks radar... or that it's shit?

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Then use common sense. If the first post in the gem thread, which spells out the phrase gem prioritization, and the spreadsheet, (which is, by the way, as close to a Holy Grail as you are going to get), both do not breathe a word about Armor Penetration, what's the better assumption: that somehow, it slipped under the collective Elitist Jerks radar... or that it's shit?

I've just quickly looked over this thread

Big hint here.

Since I didn't see it (and it wasn't even MENTIONED, even as "this gem cut is shit never use it") I asked a question about it.

Stop trolling here and drop it.

Aren't forums a place for discussion and questions? If not it would be a guide (or at least locked to prevent questions and such).

Edit:

Now I'm sitting here typing a defense against why I'm not asking MS Excel questions about ArP.

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Big hint here.

Since I didn't see it (and it wasn't even MENTIONED, even as "this gem cut is shit never use it") I asked a question about it.

Stop trolling here and drop it.

Aren't forums a place for discussion and questions? If not it would be a guide (or at least locked to prevent questions and such).

Edit:

Spirit gems aren't mentioned here either, and that doesn't mean they are worth asking about. The first post says that it is a list of gems you should prioritize. It pretty clearly lays out what it is intended to do, and what was not considered at all (i.e., intellect gems). Anything that is not on the list adds less dps than something that is on the list, as per the spreadsheet, with the exception of INT gems and their variations. So even if you don't know how to use the spreadsheet, the first post summarizes what you would get from it if you did.

Obviously there are reasons to use armor pen gems (like if you literally had no other option available), but for a list that purports to give the best option for each slot, you won't see mention of things like that.

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at rougly 5% haste you'll be able to fit 5 steadies in between chimera shots, and until you are fully hastecapped that gives better dps than delaying chimera for an extra steadyshot.

(that is, if I'm not mistaken, I haven't been MM since well before 3.0)

Curious, I wonder if it is worth using quick/deft gems in order to reach the haste softcap of 523 haste rating, and/or eat haste-food instead of AGI food while you are still under that value?

From a sheer DPS perspective, in MM spec using Wild Quiver which would theoretically scale off of your autoshot speed, what wins?

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That you would have to check for yourself on the spreadsheet I'm afraid.

As I haven't been MM for a long time (or SV for that matter), I really have no hands on experience with not having steady shots at 1.5 seconds.

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I've revised the original post to reflect 3.0.8 changes. Red priorities remain unchanged; in other words, AP for BM, Agility for Surv and varying results for MM (ie. use the spreadsheet!). Pretty much the only significant change is haste. Previously haste was showing probably the best yellow damage stat for MM/Surv until you had 1.5s steadies.

If you had to choose between haste and crit, what would you go with. I've been strictly viewing this specific issue at a spreadsheet level (no live testing), but it seems that crit always wins over equal values of haste now. The way I approached this was by using DPS results on paper via the "Use Rotation Test results instead of frequencies" option, which seems to be a more fair assesment of the "fit more steadies in-between chimera/ExS" pro-haste position.

Starting from 0 haste and 0 haste buffs and no IAoTH procs (Rotation Test doesn't include procs), Haste loses to Crit by a fairly wide margin now in a Standard rotation: ExS>Kill Shot>Serpent>Rapid Fire>Aimed>Steady (Surv) / Chimera>Kill Shot>Serpent>Rapid Fire>Readiness>Arcane >Aimed>Steady (MM).

The difference between crit and haste, of course, decreases as you decrease the number of instants. The breaking point for me seemed to be at flat Chimera>Steady (which no one should be limited to using now); at that point haste was ahead but as soon as you added Rapid Fire (or an IAoTH proc, presumably), Crit was back on top.

All in all, I was seeing an average of (very)roughly .4 dps increase per point of crit rating, vs .25 dps increase per point of haste rating in my existing gear (minus my haste rating) unbuffed. That was about as pro-haste a setup as I could get, and crit was the pretty clear winner. That being said, I've gone ahead and taken haste gems off of the original post. Anything I've looked at for haste right now has been stictly on paper, so if anyone comes up with any counter, by all means call me out.

As a couple of side notes, I've personally used this list several times as a reference when working with the spreadsheet and part of me wants to keep those there for reference (scrolling through a combo box for 10 minutes to find the gem I was looking for was my primary inspiration here), although some people may get the idea that they should actually use those gems. If you think we should leave those cuts on the list for reference, send me a pm or something, otherwise haste is out. Also, do we have a [item]Shifting Twilight Opal[/item] in-game yet?

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For a SV hunter under hit cap would [Glinting Monarch Topaz] be a better call than the [Rigid Autumn's Glow] ?

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For a SV hunter under hit cap would [Glinting Monarch Topaz] be a better call than the [Rigid Autumn's Glow] ?

That depends on your spec, how under the hit cap you are, your crit, and a variety of other factors. For best results, compare relative dps on the hunter spreadsheet available for download here in the hunter forums.

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For a SV hunter under hit cap would [item]Glinting Monarch Topaz[/item] be a better call than the [item]Rigid Autumn's Glow[/item] ?

Both are included here. The Glinting is listed under the orange gems. Like Fierra says, the spreadsheet will give you more detailed answers, but I'll say a couple of things.

Applicable hit rating will (always)give you better results than Agility. Otherwise we would say a Glinting is outright better than a Rigid, but then we would also have to say that a Delicate is outright better than a Glinting, and that all Survival hunters should carpet gem all Delicates (+enchanted tear for the meta), which isnt the case (at least not since raid wide expose weakness left town). This is in fact how I am gemmed at the moment, but only because I am hit capped

If you are 14-15 hit rating short, a Rigid will give you a better number on average than a glinting; its probably even better at 12-13 hit rating short due to the way pet hit % rounds down to the next lowest whole number (even as survival).

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I always wondered if its really a good idea to put +16 agi gems in all slots (after activating meta and reaching hit cap). Let's say you have a yellow slot, and instead of using +16 agi you put +8 agi/+8 crit there. The difference is small and by putting in a correct gem you get socket bonus, which easily covers the difference.

But what should I do with blue slots?

Also, stupid question, if meta requires a blue and a yellow gem, can I satisfy both requirements by using a single green gem?

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Also, stupid question, if meta requires a blue and a yellow gem, can I satisfy both requirements by using a single green gem?

yes you can

edit: I suppose you also noticed Enchanted Tear that might solve many problems with a single gem

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(*if severely under hit cap.)

This comment implies that reaching the hit cap is a goal, when it is not. It depends on your gear and spec. The agility or AP gems may be a better choice than the hit gems.

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This comment implies that reaching the hit cap is a goal, when it is not. It depends on your gear and spec. The agility or AP gems may be a better choice than the hit gems.

I don't understand. Reaching hit cap is probably the very first goal a raiding hunter should have when juggling stats. If you mean to say that there are better ways to reach said hit-cap (through gear and spec) then you are at only partially right. Your most true statement is that it depends on your gear - but gemming is the no. 1 way to compensate for lacking hit from it.

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Actually if you use maxdps correctly you'll find that it gives all the correct choices. UNBUFFED the best choice of gem is ArP - however if you go to the 'buffs' tab (near your stats) you can enable them all and all the items there are correct for raids. You'll notice that ArP is less useful according to the spreadsheets there :)

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Actually if you use maxdps correctly you'll find that it gives all the correct choices. UNBUFFED the best choice of gem is ArP

Not according to Shandara's. I loaded my character, stripped all buffs, and then traded the [item]Bright Scarlet Ruby[/item] in my shoulders for a [item]Fractured Scarlet Ruby[/item], to the tune of a 4 dps loss.

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I don't understand. Reaching hit cap is probably the very first goal a raiding hunter should have when juggling stats. If you mean to say that there are better ways to reach said hit-cap (through gear and spec) then you are at only partially right. Your most true statement is that it depends on your gear - but gemming is the no. 1 way to compensate for lacking hit from it.

In my situation, 1 Hit Rating is worth .417 dps, while 1 AP is worth .231 dps (according to Shandra's spreadsheet and assuming I'm not making a mistake). Therefore, Rigid Autumn's Glow is worth 6.7 dps and Bright Scarlet Ruby is worth 7.4 dps. I should choose the AP gem since my goal is to maximize dps.

Note: the dps values vary greatly depending on buffs, but in all cases the AP gem is better for me. Also note: the socket bonus sometimes makes a difference.

Edit: I played around with my hit rating and found that the value of additional hit rating becomes less as it approaches the cap. With my hit rating around 100 the two gems have about the same dps value, but at higher ratings the AP gem has a higher dps.

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In my situation, 1 Hit Rating is worth .417 dps, while 1 AP is worth .231 dps (according to Shandra's spreadsheet and assuming I'm not making a mistake). Therefore, Rigid Autumn's Glow is worth 6.7 dps and Bright Scarlet Ruby is worth 7.4 dps. I should choose the AP gem since my goal is to maximize dps.

Note: the dps values vary greatly depending on buffs, but in all cases the AP gem is better for me. Also note: the socket bonus sometimes makes a difference.

While this is technically true, also remember that hit rating transfers to your pet, and unless you have 8%+ hit rating, RNG can take you for a walk mid-boss fight, causing a string of misses, regardless of the probability of it. It's usually just safer to cap hit first, especially when the dps difference is as close as what you've quoted above.

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In my situation, 1 Hit Rating is worth .417 dps, while 1 AP is worth .231 dps (according to Shandra's spreadsheet and assuming I'm not making a mistake). Therefore, Rigid Autumn's Glow is worth 6.7 dps and Bright Scarlet Ruby is worth 7.4 dps. I should choose the AP gem since my goal is to maximize dps.

Note: the dps values vary greatly depending on buffs, but in all cases the AP gem is better for me. Also note: the socket bonus sometimes makes a difference.

Just to check something... Is it 1 AP that is worth .231 dps? Or is it "per item budget"? If it is the latter, then you are only getting 16*.231 = 3.7 dps for that gem, since the item budget consumes 2 AP.

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Just to check something... Is it 1 AP that is worth .231 dps? Or is it "per item budget"? If it is the latter, then you are only getting 16*.231 = 3.7 dps for that gem, since the item budget consumes 2 AP.

That's the dps value, not the per item budget value.

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That's the dps value, not the per item budget value.

That doesn't sound right and is very different from anything I've seen in there. Are you sure you're not looking at pet hit?

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That doesn't sound right and is very different from anything I've seen in there. Are you sure you're not looking at pet hit?

I had also never seen a case where AP was valued higher than hit for someone who wasn't hit-capped, but I loaded him from the armory into the spreadsheet, and with no or minimal buffs, this is the case. Interestingly, I show intellect as his most valuable stat, followed by raw AP, followed by hit.

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