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constantius

Raids & Healing in 3.0 (as a priest)

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One big problem I have with the introduction of more cooldowns is that healers should *not* be cooldown-based classes.

Indeed. It seems to me that if we ignore situations where you need to keep CoH off cooldown for particular boss abilities or whatever, then missing a CoH or PoM cooldown becomes a "mistake" as it will lower your HPS and mana is unlikely to be an issue (since you can easily, in mana terms, hit every PoM and CoH cooldown).

So aside from specifc boss mechanics and priesting might come down to spamming a "/cast CoH /cast PoM /cast Flash Heal" (or similar) macro with occasional use of GH, PW:S, Binding Heal in the gaps.

(Sorry if this is the wrong thread).

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It worried me that Priest might become in 3.0 what Druids were in 2.0 in terms of cooldown.

Druids were mostly limited to "working in between Lifeblooms" more or less. And now it seems priests will be limited to working in between CoH/PoM. Although, I don't think we'll hit CoH every cooldown, not every boss demands it. But I see absolutely no reason not to PoM.

On a side note, why does Divine Aegis get so much attention but the druid equivilent Living Seed does not? (P.S. sorry I am not sure how to link Wowhead spells >.> WTB [ Spell] [ /Spell] Tags!)

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I have somewhat of a naive question. Why would you constantly hit PoM on every cooldown?

It seems to me that:

1) Flash Heal is more mana efficient for a single target

2) Flash Heal is more HPS efficient for a single target

3) For a lot of fights, the dps-ers aren't getting damaged, so your PoM will often just be a single target heal

4) If your last "single target PoM" is sitting with 4 charges on a dps-er, it doesnt make sense to recast it because it'll jump from the tank and sit unused on a dpser again

Thoughts?

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Name one fight where the tank and only the tank takes damage. Even on Patchwerks you can jump PoM between 2-3 tanks. (Especially if you ask your warlock to sit 20 yards away).

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So...two and a half questions, two different raids make ups (in regards to healers).

First, this last week, our ten man Malygos (and Naxx) ran with two healers--myself, GS Holy priest and a Resto Sham...no idea what "type" of resto if there is a difference. Everything ran smoothly, and effectively up to the point of entering Malygos. I wanted to break it down, at least from my perspective, since he and I didn't break down healing/mana from his point of view. First attempt--believe we got to second stage, at least on person died from vortex fall damage, but we were considerably behind in healing, thus we wiped. Second attempt--sham went link dead, by the second vortex I was oom, but still had all cool downs available, my mentality was one healer is not going to keep everyone going with the random four person breath, tank damage and vortex + fall damage. Third/Fourth attempt--behind on healing once again, tank died first both attempts. Raid called at that point. So, our tank is a prot paladin, but I was noticing more spike damage. Maybe it's because I'm used to not being included on 10 man Malygos, and used to having pocket healers in 25...but I was wondering if anyone had better healer combos for 10 mans, but also, was there a noticeable difference between having different classes tanking on 10 mans? Also...thought maybe it might make a difference on how we make attempts, raid stands center, tank moves Malygos around us depending on "sparks" (correct term?).

10 man Sarth + 2 drakes first: Our make up consists of druid tanking Sarth, with paladin(s) OTing drakes--same healer comp, myself and rest sham. I wont break down issues to attempts, but what I was noticing as a general problem. We break the tanks up based on left or right, when the encounter beings--druid going left at the start of the platform, where you would stand w/o pulling aggro and in the "left" wave clear area. OT stands "right" wave clear area--generally to Malygos' right side where you would body pull if you ran to the area. (hope that makes sense) The raid, healers as well, stand in between--obviously melee closer to whichever is being damaged. My main focus was the MT>OT(s)>Raid. I had some range issue with Druid when "right" waves would come, but we worked that out some what. The real issue came more with the massive amount of damage that came with that wave--whether it was a breath, just lack of healing for the two seconds of range (him dipping into the lava and me running away from him to get into the clear area of the wave)--but over all handling the rotations of my GS and his cool downs was some what left to be wanting. We were still wiping to terrible timed breaths, among other real dumb things (void spawns, waves, etc after ports...silly things that can -should- be prevented). So...I guess it boils down to this: is death accountable to breath due to lack of communication between healers and tanks? Are others using notification macros on GS buffs? Is is more suitable to be heavy Disc over Holy for 10 Sarth + multiple drakes?

25 man Sarth + 2 drakes: Some what similar issues--different make up. Our 25 MT is a warrior, who isn't shy to use what he needs to and when. In this make up we have two holy priests (GS myself, and a wacky IMP DS/holy) and paladins, two resto sham and druids. In the 25 man, it's a little harder for me to pin point huge issues--healing, tanking, positioning, etc. to blame--but we run the same positioning layout as we do in our 10 man. We've tried different drank comps as well--to not avail in change of progression. So, my question regarding this is...should we have a heavy Disc priest and a GS priest? Same question with communication between healers and tanks, notification macros etc.? I really hate to think this is an issue of gear, but I'm also not oblivious to the fact that it can also be "dumb luck"--in regards to fires on Archie, just things to avoid as we've had several people die continuously to voids/waves.

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IOn a side note, why does Divine Aegis get so much attention but the druid equivilent Living Seed does not? (P.S. sorry I am not sure how to link Wowhead spells >.> WTB [ Spell] [ /Spell] Tags!)

Use [ url=] [ /url] instead Living Seed. Living Seed functions more like a 1 jump Prayer of Mending than Divine Aegis.

I have somewhat of a naive question. Why would you constantly hit PoM on every cooldown?

It seems to me that:

1) Flash Heal is more mana efficient for a single target

2) Flash Heal is more HPS efficient for a single target

3) For a lot of fights, the dps-ers aren't getting damaged, so your PoM will often just be a single target heal

4) If your last "single target PoM" is sitting with 4 charges on a dps-er, it doesnt make sense to recast it because it'll jump from the tank and sit unused on a dpser again

All of those are correct, but Prayer of Mending has a chance of bouncing off multiple targets, and once that happens, its far superior to a Flash Heal. Also, Prayer of Mending is a heal cast in advance. If ProM lands on a topped off Tank, it will not heal until next time Tank takes damage. Which means you saved time.

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I have somewhat of a naive question. Why would you constantly hit PoM on every cooldown?

It seems to me that:

1) Flash Heal is more mana efficient for a single target

2) Flash Heal is more HPS efficient for a single target

3) For a lot of fights, the dps-ers aren't getting damaged, so your PoM will often just be a single target heal

4) If your last "single target PoM" is sitting with 4 charges on a dps-er, it doesnt make sense to recast it because it'll jump from the tank and sit unused on a dpser again

Thoughts?

PoM: 15% of base mana, heals for ~ 3900

FH: 16.2% of base mana, heals for ~ 5200 (glyph'd)

If you can get your second bounce off PoM (so 4 charges remaining, with 2-piece T7), it's more efficient than Flash, even accounting for the effects of Serendipity.

So basically, yes, if you have used only one charge of your PoM, don't re-use it unless you have mana to burn. But if it's been used twice, re-cast; you already got your efficiency.

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... And more important, PoM is different healing than direct heals wich a lot of healers are landing all the time. Healing the tank to 100% > PoM is better than healing the tank to 100% > FH. PoM smooth out dmg the tank takes and you have a great chance of getting a 2nd proc. PoM should be one of the main heals as a tankhealer.

PoM is also higher than 3900 fully talented even with my low SP :)

So...I guess it boils down to this: is death accountable to breath due to lack of communication between healers and tanks? Are others using notification macros on GS buffs? Is is more suitable to be heavy Disc over Holy for 10 Sarth + multiple drakes?

Yes, communication is everything. You need a plan for every breath (dunno if its needed on two drakes though). And no, I would never run disc. on that encounter, you will perform so much better as holy with CoH + GS. That is my personal opinion at least.

***

Just a comment regarding the CoH-discussion. Healing will be very different after that patch for all classes. Any encounter which is slightly challenging for healers now will need a lot more healing from Shamans and Druids - which is a good thing. Gearing for holypriests will also change dramatically from going for pure regen (more or less) to stacking haste / crit.

PS! Not the thread for this, but I just have to: If you think that priests are viable as single target-healers in raids (after the nerf), then think again. We need to utilize CoH (losing a CoH is a disaster to HPS), PoM and PoH (!) to stay competitive compared to other healers. If we're forced into Single target-healing, you're always better off replacing the Priest unless the Priest is a godlike healer and irreplaceable player.

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PoM is also higher than 3900 fully talented even with my low SP :)

<snip>

PS! Not the thread for this, but I just have to: If you think that priests are viable as single target-healers in raids (after the nerf), then think again. We need to utilize CoH (losing a CoH is a disaster to HPS), PoM and PoH (!) to stay competitive compared to other healers. If we're forced into Single target-healing, you're always better off replacing the Priest unless the Priest is a godlike healer and irreplaceable player.

Two comments:

1) The 3900 number is the average of all of my PoM bounces (non-crits) over a typical Naxx night, with ~ 2400 raid-buffed spellpower. Figured that was close enough.

2) You need either shamans or priests to keep Inspiration up. We discussed the math in the other thread, but assuming GHeal spam, priests keep up with shamans just fine for single-target heals, especially when we have enough crit to keep IHC procs going for hasted GHeals. I don't see us sitting priests anytime soon. Yes, we got nerfed, but it's not the end of the world.

[e] I'd say Disc can keep up with HPaladins ... *if* you factor the absorption and reduced damage and generously weight the tables in favour of the priest, and make sure to factor Inspiration as well. 8k HpS from HL spam (possibly even higher depending on setup, comp, etc) + Beacon is kinda ridiculous.

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Did you guys remember the calculate the Imp. Water Shield / Lesser Healing Wave nerf too? Well, worse case, we can go back to having 1 priest per a raid and the rest being shadow. TBC Anyone? Discipline can certainly keep up with a Holy Paladin on a single target, while putting up Inspiration.

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[e] I'd say Disc can keep up with HPaladins ... *if* you factor the absorption and reduced damage and generously weight the tables in favour of the priest, and make sure to factor Inspiration as well. 8k HpS from HL spam (possibly even higher depending on setup, comp, etc) + Beacon is kinda ridiculous.

Wow Web Stats

Heals to friends : 2,749,859 (35 %) to foes : 0 HPS time : 2'58'' (98 % of presence) HPS : 15448

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25 man Sarth + 2 drakes: Some what similar issues--different make up. Our 25 MT is a warrior, who isn't shy to use what he needs to and when. In this make up we have two holy priests (GS myself, and a wacky IMP DS/holy) and paladins, two resto sham and druids. In the 25 man, it's a little harder for me to pin point huge issues--healing, tanking, positioning, etc. to blame--but we run the same positioning layout as we do in our 10 man. We've tried different drank comps as well--to not avail in change of progression. So, my question regarding this is...should we have a heavy Disc priest and a GS priest? Same question with communication between healers and tanks, notification macros etc.? I really hate to think this is an issue of gear, but I'm also not oblivious to the fact that it can also be "dumb luck"--in regards to fires on Archie, just things to avoid as we've had several people die continuously to voids/waves.

I cannot really help you on the first two questions as we usually run 3 healers in our 10 man raids.

On the 25 man however, still having ppl die voids waves has nothing to do with luck, but with the said ppl not focusing on moving/staying alive. Basically this fight is won when ppl stop dying to bullshit. Also it is best to have as many oh shit buttons as possible, so id say a priest with no GS or PS is not good. Every breath in the period between Vesperson summoning his add and Shadron's death can instagib the tank and it is then when you need to time cooldowns on your mt. GS, PS, HoS, LS, SW basically get you thru until Shadron bites the dust. Hope i didnt spoil much :)

If you do it without shadron, there should be no problem as i doubt your tank can get gibbed. Without Vesperon i also doubt he can get gibbed, but there will be some close calls.

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Wow Web Stats

Heals to friends : 2,749,859 (35 %) to foes : 0 HPS time : 2'58'' (98 % of presence) HPS : 15448

That's a little misleading. 600,000 of that was Judgement of Light, which isn't so much the holy pally's healing, as a raid debuff. Aswell as that, total effective healing was only 590,000. Holy pallies can pump out ridiculous numbers, but they're mostly wasted numbers, even on a fight like patchwerk, where the damage is constant and consistent, they waste huge amounts of healage. A priest pumping out the heals on the same fight won't waste anywhere near as much.

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That's a little misleading. 600,000 of that was Judgement of Light, which isn't so much the holy pally's healing, as a raid debuff. Aswell as that, total effective healing was only 590,000. Holy pallies can pump out ridiculous numbers, but they're mostly wasted numbers, even on a fight like patchwerk, where the damage is constant and consistent, they waste huge amounts of healage. A priest pumping out the heals on the same fight won't waste anywhere near as much.

JoL was less than 1/3 of his healing. Overhealing isn't really a concern unless mana is, and mana is never ever a concern for a holy paladin.

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The concern is keeping the tank, and the raid, alive. You do that by negating the damage done by the mobs. That holy paladin negated 590,000 damage by healing the tanks in his raid, over a three minute period. A little under 3300 damage negated per second.

Holy Light/Beacon of Light will do ridiculous amounts of HPS, but its unusable. Only a fraction of it actually goes onto the targets. Glyph of Holy Light was 560K healing on that fight - 99% overheal. Beacon was 430K - 73% overheal. Holy Light 1.07M healed - 64% overheal.

You're absolutely right about overhealing. It doesn't matter. What matters is how much damage is actually healed. Following those numbers, a holy pally isn't that much ahead of a priest, in fact it can actually be behind a Disc Priest, because of the shields. You want high theoretical throughput? Circle of Healing will hit 11-12K HPS without that much trouble, just start spamming it on everything in sight. It's the same net effect.

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10 man Sarth + 2 drakes first: Our make up consists of druid tanking Sarth, with paladin(s) OTing drakes--same healer comp, myself and rest sham. I wont break down issues to attempts, but what I was noticing as a general problem. We break the tanks up based on left or right, when the encounter beings--druid going left at the start of the platform, where you would stand w/o pulling aggro and in the "left" wave clear area. OT stands "right" wave clear area--generally to Malygos' right side where you would body pull if you ran to the area. (hope that makes sense) The raid, healers as well, stand in between--obviously melee closer to whichever is being damaged. My main focus was the MT>OT(s)>Raid. I had some range issue with Druid when "right" waves would come, but we worked that out some what. The real issue came more with the massive amount of damage that came with that wave--whether it was a breath, just lack of healing for the two seconds of range (him dipping into the lava and me running away from him to get into the clear area of the wave)--but over all handling the rotations of my GS and his cool downs was some what left to be wanting. We were still wiping to terrible timed breaths, among other real dumb things (void spawns, waves, etc after ports...silly things that can -should- be prevented). So...I guess it boils down to this: is death accountable to breath due to lack of communication between healers and tanks? Are others using notification macros on GS buffs? Is is more suitable to be heavy Disc over Holy for 10 Sarth + multiple drakes?

Which drakes are you leaving up? The only time your tank should need cooldowns to survive is a breath with Shadron and Vesperon disciples both up, and hopefully in +2 you killed one of those two off. Anyway, it sounds like you've identified the major problem - you fall behind on tank healing if you have to move and get out of range for a wave. I suggest you reposition so that you don't have to spend so much time running, and don't lose range on the tank.

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The concern is keeping the tank, and the raid, alive. You do that by negating the damage done by the mobs. That holy paladin negated 590,000 damage by healing the tanks in his raid, over a three minute period. A little under 3300 damage negated per second.

Holy Light/Beacon of Light will do ridiculous amounts of HPS, but its unusable. Only a fraction of it actually goes onto the targets. Glyph of Holy Light was 560K healing on that fight - 99% overheal. Beacon was 430K - 73% overheal. Holy Light 1.07M healed - 64% overheal.

You're absolutely right about overhealing. It doesn't matter. What matters is how much damage is actually healed. Following those numbers, a holy pally isn't that much ahead of a priest, in fact it can actually be behind a Disc Priest, because of the shields. You want high theoretical throughput? Circle of Healing will hit 11-12K HPS without that much trouble, just start spamming it on everything in sight. It's the same net effect.

I think when comparing Disc Priests to Holy Paladins, people tend to forget Disc Priests also provide a non-trivial amount of raid healing help via Prayer of Mending. And while I know it is popular for people to point out BoL is amazing for keeping both the paladin and his tank alive, it is equally important to note Disc Priests are still equipped with Binding Heal and PWSing themselves will give them BT.

Although, the Paladin brings another aura and an extra blessing.

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Although, the Paladin brings another aura and an extra blessing.

Did a 10 man Naxx with 3 Priests. 2 Holy, 1 Disc. And before you say too much healing, I (Disc) went and specced Shadow. Remainder was 2x DK, 1x Warrior, 2x Rogue, 1x Lock, 1x Mage. There is absolutely no stackability on Priests at all. This does worry me a bit with the change to Circle of Healing. Right now, you can argue that if there is enough raid damage, bring another Holy Priest. After patch, will it be better to get another set of Totems, another Rebirth/Innervate, another Aura/Blessing over an additional Priest?

Its hard to argue, bring the Player, not the Class, when Priests bring so little extra after the first one. Obviously, having 1 Priest of each Spec lowers the problem, but maybe its time for Blizzard to break out something interesting for us.

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Overhealing has always a value on a tank, how good it is depends on burst potential and other things (like movement, silence, whatever - you get the point). Saying that it doesn't matter that holypriests do 50% of a paladin's single target-HPS is very stupid. You want twice as high HPS on the tank (or just drop a healer) to make sure your tank is on 100% as much as possible.

You don't bring a holypriest over a paladin if you want a single target-healer just because of PoM-jumps or whatever, HL-glyph + Beacon is better.

However, we do kind of "stack" as you get one more CoH and GS for every holypriest in the raid. Disc.priests also can be useful if your tank is taking very heavy dmg as they reduce spikes.

PS! Just delete if this is taking the thread in the wrong direction, I find it interesting how balance will turn out in 3.1 though.

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Overhealing has always a value on a tank, how good it is depends on burst potential and other things (like movement, silence, whatever - you get the point). Saying that it doesn't matter that holypriests do 50% of a paladin's single target-HPS is very stupid. You want twice as high HPS on the tank (or just drop a healer) to make sure your tank is on 100% as much as possible.

You don't bring a holypriest over a paladin if you want a single target-healer just because of PoM-jumps or whatever, HL-glyph + Beacon is better.

However, we do kind of "stack" as you get one more CoH and GS for every holypriest in the raid. Disc.priests also can be useful if your tank is taking very heavy dmg as they reduce spikes.

PS! Just delete if this is taking the thread in the wrong direction, I find it interesting how balance will turn out in 3.1 though.

You're right that overall healing throughput (overheal+effective heal) does have a value. For instance, if I had to pick between a healer who did 500K effective healing and 60K overheal while running out of mana compared to a healer who did 500K effective healing and 500K overheal while aslo running out of mana, I'd pick the latter. The overheal provides a potential buffer that can be valuable. (Of course, this changes if the first healer somehow ends the fight with 60% mana, showing that he has the potential to provide more throughput but simply chose not to overheal)

Therefore, you can keep your HL overheal numbers, but you still have to subtract stuff like Glyph of Holy Light and Beacon of Light from your overall heal numbers. On most fights these spells will be overhealing by a lot and have little chance of actually hitting with a good portion of the heal.

That's why stuff like PW:S and PoM are so valuable despite the comparatively low throughput, as these spells have a great chance of doing actual mitigation.

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So basically, yes, if you have used only one charge of your PoM, don't re-use it unless you have mana to burn. But if it's been used twice, re-cast; you already got your efficiency.

While backwards looking-analyses are useful for determining your efficiency of PoM versus a Flash in similar situations after the fact, I'd argue you should not be looking at the number of times a PoM has bounced in determining whether to recast. Essentially, the prior history of a PoM is a sunk cost, and the only pertinent information in determining to recast is forward-looking (number of bounces left, cooldown management, making sure it's on somebody where it will be used relatively quickly).

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Did a 10 man Naxx with 3 Priests. 2 Holy, 1 Disc. And before you say too much healing, I (Disc) went and specced Shadow. Remainder was 2x DK, 1x Warrior, 2x Rogue, 1x Lock, 1x Mage. There is absolutely no stackability on Priests at all. This does worry me a bit with the change to Circle of Healing. Right now, you can argue that if there is enough raid damage, bring another Holy Priest. After patch, will it be better to get another set of Totems, another Rebirth/Innervate, another Aura/Blessing over an additional Priest?

Its hard to argue, bring the Player, not the Class, when Priests bring so little extra after the first one. Obviously, having 1 Priest of each Spec lowers the problem, but maybe its time for Blizzard to break out something interesting for us.

You're talking about 3 healers in a 10-man Naxx, an instance we're seriously debating running with 1 healer in the near future (at least for the 4 wings; then a second for Sapphiron and KT). Of course there's no stackability.

Assuming you have a shaman and paladin in the raid already (as dps), there's absolutely nothing wrong with 2 holy priests in a Naxx clear. I'd certainly prefer it to 2 druids, for example, or 2 paladins. We are still the best all-around 'hybrid' healers: we heal single targets very well (with essentially infinite throughput thanks to IHC), we heal the raid from incidental damage very well (CoH, PoM), and we have pre-emptive heals our paladin brothers dream of (PW:S, PoM). Yes, we bring no blessings ... yes, we don't have a 9k instant-cast "oh shit" button. We're still effective and useful healers.

And, ironically, Blizzard screwed the pooch: you have to bring 2 priests (realistically) to any Naxx.25 clear, for Razuvious. I'm one of the MC tanks there, just to keep a shadow priest providing Replenishment. I don't think we've actually run with less than 3 priests on any 25-man raid so far in WotLK.

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And, ironically, Blizzard screwed the pooch: you have to bring 2 priests (realistically) to any Naxx.25 clear, for Razuvious. I'm one of the MC tanks there, just to keep a shadow priest providing Replenishment. I don't think we've actually run with less than 3 priests on any 25-man raid so far in WotLK.

Arcane mages can tank razuvious fine.

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And you think that's intended? C'mon, they'll nerf or change that. It's obviously not the intended method.

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Three Hunter tanking Razuvious is clearly the intended "bring the player not the class" solution.

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