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Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion

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Oh the other reason is because the developers have already realized that people know that regrowth is better. They plan on improving nourish in the future and adding a glyph for it to give it a spot on druids rotations.

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You can do the math or tests yourself if you like, but the fact is that glyphed regrowth is a better heal than nourish (without t7 bonus) for keeping up a tank. Why? It's not only more HPS (by about 500), but its more HPM (9 compared to 7) and less HPS. When I did the statistics I did not even include the hot that you get with regrowth that you don't get with nourish. Why is regrowth better? Because it has a 50% chance to crit. Nough said.

Depending on the situation, Regrowth spam vs Nourish spam with Regrowth already on actually puts the HoT portion in favor of Nourish use. But I'm not arguing that Nourish is better numberwise. I already said Regrowth wins there.

I think what it boils down to is that I see a valid use for Nourish (OMG must heal tank now, but Swiftmend and NS/HT are down) which cuts into what used to be Regrowth's niche. I don't see very many opportunities to really put Regrowth and it's glyph to ideal use, though, and that isn't in line with all the fanfare a lot of people make over it.

Maybe it's due in part to me usually being paired with a Paladin healer in 10 mans? I'm not sure, really, but I don't see myself being the one best suited to bringing a tank's HP back up in big chunks. It doesn't mesh well with the old philosophy of serving primarily as a buffer on tank HP, which IMO has only got stronger in Wrath raiding where bosses, in general, seem to be less of a direct threat to the tank.

Anyway, I do support a plan to buff Nourish, as it needs to be more comparable in the numbers section regardless (and especially so independent of the 4 piece T7 bonus, which won't last long into Wrath). I'm curious to see what Blizzard would come up with for a glyph for it. Hearing Druids say they don't even have the spell bound makes me cringe, though.

I'll have to start comparing WWS reports to see if I'm casting a significantly lower number of Regrowths or something. I'm beginning to suspect this discrepancy is somewhat only in my head, since I do see a valid use for it thus making the Regrowth glyph a solid option. Maybe I'm casting it just as much as others, but without their accompanying glee. I'll have to look into this. :p

Though... I still say numbers aren't as meaningful for healing as they are for DPS! That would make for a more productive post, most likely, but I don't know if the interest is there.

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Oh the other reason is because the developers have already realized that people know that regrowth is better. They plan on improving nourish in the future and adding a glyph for it to give it a spot on druids rotations.

GC has said that they're considering adding Wild Growth to the spells that give it the 20% bonus. That would be nice and make it a pretty useful spell for handling party damage in my book. Wild Growth the party then use Nourish to top off the lowest members of the group. Sometimes I find that using Regrowth can be dangerous if it doesn't crit. Of course it crits more often than not, but if you get an unlucky streak 2s feels very slow, especially if you need to get everyone in the group up ASAP, or the tank is taking big hits.

If they're adding a glyph for Nourish, personally I'd love to see it refresh one of our HoTs, maybe Rejuvination.

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I really believe the intended use for Nourish has been watered down by Glyph of Regrowth. Furthermore, many of the advocates of that spell (in this thread) are specc'd for 3/3 Living Seed. That talent is already crappy (as it is), but it's made even more worthless when your crit % is ~ 20% and not ~ 70%. Even on a fight where I was MT healing using purely Regrowth (as my direct heal), Living Seed only accounted for 4% of my total healing. Seed would be even less effective if I was throwing Nourish in there.

Honestly I just don't see the arguement for using Nourish, even in situations where it's warranted. Is your reaction time really fast enough to decide between using Regrwoth with Nature's Grace up, or Nourish? I don't think Nourish is a bad spell. I'm just not sure it's necessary. Nobody has shown me so far why it's an important part of our healing arsenal. What makes it good? Haste is abundant in Wrath gear. I'm raiding with + 18% haste from gear, talents and raid buffs. The strength of Nourish is supposed to be speed. Trouble is, with haste, Nature's Grace and the ~ 70% crit rate of Regrowth, it just marginalizes Nourish.

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Right, the only argument that I've seen for Nourish is that sometimes you just don't have the extra .5s to Regrowth. Two counterpoints to that:

1) If the tank is taking enough damage that he'll die in less than two seconds, do you really want to be casting a 5k heal instead of 8k + Living Seed?

2) What on earth were you doing that let the tank get so low, or that you didn't predict the damage?

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In a perfect situation where there is no overhealing etc Regrowth(Glyphed) will pump out higher HPS than Nourish(4t7) by about 500-700 HPS.

However the chance of you having this situation is unrealistic and Regrowth diminishes at a faster rate than Nourish to the point where it really doesn't matter what you decide at this stage of the game.

The 'best' form of healing will probably boil down to weaving Nourish inbetween Regrowth ticks then landing Regrowth right after a tick or something but that is even more anal retentive than what Hunters used to do.

Provided that Nourish eventually gets a Glyph which increases its output then it will become unquestionably superior for tank healing.

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Right, the only argument that I've seen for Nourish is that sometimes you just don't have the extra .5s to Regrowth. Two counterpoints to that:

1) If the tank is taking enough damage that he'll die in less than two seconds, do you really want to be casting a 5k heal instead of 8k + Living Seed?

2) What on earth were you doing that let the tank get so low, or that you didn't predict the damage?

1) Regrowth is not 8k + living seed. It's about 5.5k plus extras if you crit which is in no way guaranteed - you've just got 46% better critical chance than on Nourish.

2) Show me a fight where the tank "doesn't get so low" and I'll show you a fight where it really doesn't matter whether you use Regrowth or Nourish. Or if the damage is 100% predictably timed why not just use healing touch while at it, you get ~9k guaranteed without glyphs - not that the damage often is that predictable.

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There are plenty of fights that tanks drop dangerously low, but I think you're overestimating the difference between 1.5 and 2.0 - nothing even swings that fast; odds are that the tank will take 1 melee swing between the start of your cast, whether it's Nourish or Regrowth, and its end. What you're trying to do is ensure he survives the swing after that. If it really is more urgent than that, if you're worried that the tank is going to die to the very next swing, that's when you Swiftmend or NS HT. Both of which heal more, faster, than Nourish.

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In a perfect situation where there is no overhealing etc Regrowth(Glyphed) will pump out higher HPS than Nourish(4t7) by about 500-700 HPS.

However the chance of you having this situation is unrealistic and Regrowth diminishes at a faster rate than Nourish to the point where it really doesn't matter what you decide at this stage of the game.

The 'best' form of healing will probably boil down to weaving Nourish inbetween Regrowth ticks then landing Regrowth right after a tick or something but that is even more anal retentive than what Hunters used to do.

Provided that Nourish eventually gets a Glyph which increases its output then it will become unquestionably superior for tank healing.

..and really, if people are focused on using Nourish when Nature's Grace isn't up and weaving that into our direct healing rotation, doesn't that greatly diminish our role? I mean, we can tank heal, but we're so much more useful rolling HOTs than we are trying to decide how best to single target heal efficiently. Blizzard's whole "let's make things even" philosophy with Wrath is confusing sometimes. We really didn't need a spell like Nourish. Regrowth is plenty fast, especially with Nature's Grace. Ask yourself honestly, would you really miss Nourish if Blizzard suddenly decided to get rid of it?

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The current state of Druid healing is very exciting to me as my character approaches 80. The last time I healed in raid fashion on my Druid was 2005, the era of downranked HTs, very few player buffs and precise breaks. The number of rich talents and options available to us now is rather joyous, but ah that's 3.0 (OoC alone is incredible).

During the leveling curve I have healed many instance runs, first as pure Balance and more recently as 5x/0/11. I realize these instances are easy, but it has helped get me back into the swing of mouse binds (CastParty was what I first used in 2004 on my Priest and then again on Druid, now using Grid + Clique). The glyphed HTs are good fun, especially with the .5 crit reductions.

If you could only see my face when I read comments about using Regrowth as a main repeat heal. It will take time for me to get accustomed to this concept.

I am drawn to Lifebloom and fast HTs at this current moment in time. The WG change seems excellent, though it baffles me to see Blizzard treating these two spells as if they are the same.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in the discussion.

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The intention was for useful information about Addons (ie: Clique is good because it lets you x/y/z which saves you time by allowing you to a/b/c faster) to be mentioned, not for people to give their personal thoughts about why their addon is better and all their horrible key bindings.

If you really want to go into that horrible direction please make a new thread to litter instead and if you are unable to make one then really I'm saving you infractions most likely.

I will update the first post in order to curb the stupid.

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would you really miss Nourish if Blizzard suddenly decided to get rid of it?

I would at least. Nourish is great for healing the raid in some situations and it's definitely my go-to heal for tank healing.

Nourish casts half a second faster than regrowth. Regrowth casts half a second faster than talented healing touch. Adding the casino factor that is regrowth just doesn't seem worth it for tank healing.

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Glyphed regrowth is better in my opinion because of the obvious fact that it leaves a heal over time effect that heals for something like 7000-12000 over 27 seconds, depending on your gear and whether it's the first cast or not.

Healing for 1000+ every three seconds is no joke and can free you to do other things.

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I'm wondering if any more experienced druids can give me feedback. I'm playing a restoration druid after Wrath because of a lack of reliable and non-douche healers available. Last night was my first 10 man raid.

Mostly kept lifebloom on one or two tanks, with rejuvenation and Regrowth when there was need for more heals.

The only time I ran into problems was on Kel'thuzad when I couldn't keep the guardian tank up while he was in an ice block.

Stasis Logs are here and specific fight logs are here. The raid will be the one from December 28th. My druid's name is Canoodles and an armory link is available

.

Because a lot of my healing has been intuited from skill/talent descriptions, I'm wondering if there is anything obvious (to lifetime druids) that I'm missing. I've spent a lot of time reading these forums and others to get a wide variety of views.

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There are at least 2 very specific and perhaps obvious uses for nourish in raids: in heavy tank healing situations where you have between 1.5 and 2 seconds left on your LB stack; and KT iceblock, an ability that almost seems to have been specifically designed to give nourish a use.

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I'm wondering if any more experienced druids can give me feedback. I'm playing a restoration druid after Wrath because of a lack of reliable and non-douche healers available. Last night was my first 10 man raid.

Mostly kept lifebloom on one or two tanks, with rejuvenation and Regrowth when there was need for more heals.

The only time I ran into problems was on Kel'thuzad when I couldn't keep the guardian tank up while he was in an ice block.

Stasis Logs are here and specific fight logs are here. The raid will be the one from December 28th. My druid's name is Canoodles and an armory link is available

.

Because a lot of my healing has been intuited from skill/talent descriptions, I'm wondering if there is anything obvious (to lifetime druids) that I'm missing. I've spent a lot of time reading these forums and others to get a wide variety of views.

Just what I can gather from the death log:

Kel'thuzad try 4

If you expand Wonkey you can watch his death.

He starts out in that small timeframe as -3kish HP. It looks as though either #1 you hadn't stacked your LB's or Rejuv's before he picked up the Guardians or #2 you let your LB's drop off.

@3.4 he was -3.6k

@4.1 you got your last LB on him

@5.6 you got a Rejuv on him

@8.2 he died to a hit after 3 Frost Blasts

My advice would be to closely monitor when the Guardians are coming out and get your hots stacked before he picks them up OR make sure to not let your hots fall off in the first place. On top of that you *should* have landed a Regrowth but your other healer should have pumped a Regrowth on him as soon as he gained the Frost Blast. ON TOP OF THAT your other healer (a druid) should have had at the very least 3 lb stacks on that tank too. Same lesson for him too, hot him up before the adds spawn.

Remember as a druid you have to allow time to get your hots up if possible and always keep them refreshed if possible. That lesson alone would have yielded purples on that last try.

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There's no way you're getting regrowth crits for 5.5k in a raid setting. With a flask and a stacked illustration, but no raid buffs, I'm hitting regrowths at around 4.8k and crits accordingly around the 7.2k mark. With the glyph you'll see crits close to 9k, and it's really not hard to always have a regrowth hot on the tank constantly.

Really though your best bet is SM. It heals for stupid amounts (8.3k noncrits with the same setup as above) and is on a very short cooldown. Would be nice if they fixed / changed it to always be based on the rejuv hot if you have the glyph, but that's my only gripe with it.

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My advice would be to closely monitor when the Guardians are coming out and get your hots stacked before he picks them up OR make sure to not let your hots fall off in the first place. On top of that you *should* have landed a Regrowth but your other healer should have pumped a Regrowth on him as soon as he gained the Frost Blast. ON TOP OF THAT your other healer (a druid) should have had at the very least 3 lb stacks on that tank too. Same lesson for him too, hot him up before the adds spawn.

Remember as a druid you have to allow time to get your hots up if possible and always keep them refreshed if possible. That lesson alone would have yielded purples on that last try.

Thanks for the feedback. I had let Lifeblooms drop off Wonkey after having my attention diverted. The last couple Kel'Thuzad attempts were pretty horrible and I know now that I was forgetting things(Nature's Swiftness!) due to be tired and lack of experience.

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There are at least 2 very specific and perhaps obvious uses for nourish in raids: in heavy tank healing situations where you have between 1.5 and 2 seconds left on your LB stack; and KT iceblock, an ability that almost seems to have been specifically designed to give nourish a use.

With my grid setup or proper debuff setup on raid frames you can easily Regrowth frost blast. Its 26% of health every second for 4 seconds. Assuming you're keeping ppl healed up for the most part that's really all you need.

As far as tank healing. Refresh LB first then get back into regrowth. If you're w/i 2 seconds of your LB dropping off... lag alone will penalize you for using a nourish first.

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I would agree with most of the forrest in here about nourish being second to your regrowth. However I am certainly glad Blizzard has blessed us with another button to use if so we choose.

All points being valid I would be content to let the dust grow on that particular page of my spell book. Effectivly we went, in BC, from having more or less 3 effective spells to cast, to having a plethora of spells viable in Tree form. I am really just gratefull for the options to use.

*even if i still only use three!

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I'm trying to model living seed. While every crit procs a seed not every seed gets used because the tank did not get hit before you overwrote it with a new one. For example I had 50 RG crits but only 14 seeds last Patchwerk for \ ^1^4/_5_0=28\% efficiency (for lack of a better word). So far the formula I got is

\frac{1}{\left(1+\left(\frac{2*1,20}{Avoidance\%}-\frac{Cast\ time}{2}\right)*\frac{Crit\%}{Cast\ time}\right)}

The first part of the denominator is how much time you have to land heals in between tank hits (with a standard swing speed of 2s with a 20% slowing debuff). The second parts is how many crits per second you get so in total it's the number of crits you'd be expected to get in that gap.

With my stats it gives me 32% on regrowth spam which nearly matches the 28% I had on Patchwerk this week but with only 50 crits the sample size is pretty small so I just blame RNG on the difference. What worries me though is that on nourish it gives me 55% efficiency which does seem pretty low for a spell with only 23% crit. But as most people reported very low healing numbers on seed it could make sense. So I'm looking for input on the formula and what I did right/wrong or if you have a better formula I could use.

4t7 nourish HPS > glyphed RG HPS once I modified the living seed calcs with the above formula while with 100% efficiency RG won by the same margin it now looses out with (around 5%). Also nourish is alot less russian roulette with the tanks life. However, nourish advantage in the HPS department might be partially made up for by the higher spell damage you'd gain by not being locked into 4t7.

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I'm sorry but I really don't understand why people use Nourish at all. There is so much more Synergies (for lack of a better word) with regrowth and even with healing touch. The mere fact that you can Swiftmend your Regrowth should be enough to make anybody want to use regrowth rather than Nourish.

There has been no moments since Lk that I have said or thought that 0.4 seconds would have saved a tank. I a tank dies it's either because I let my hots ticked off or another healer wasn't doing his/her job. And even if I would say that I needed a .4 seconds more I would use Glyphed Ht (which I am using) which is, again, much better than Nourish because it's a whole .5 second faster than Nourish. Most people who use Nourish claim that they use it because it gives them .5 second more to do something, so why stop there and not go for a 1 sec cast spell if you guys need those seconds so badly ? Btw, not saying that people who use Nourish are bad or anything I just don't understand the reasoning behind the "I need 0.5 seconds or the tank will die". I do have a feeling people are trying to "be" another type of healer that we, druids, are not. It's not because we have the tools to be a very efficient mt healer that we should try and do that alone. Pallies will always be better than us and we should keep the role that we've have had since Bc: roll hots and top people off with hots. Granted if you do that you have to realise that you probably won't be at the top of the healing metters but I thought that most people understood that topping the healing metter didn't mean squat.

As for using it to top people off in raid and whatnot, rejuv does a much much better job at it now that it ticks for 15 seconds AND can have replenishment AND can be swiftmended.

On another note, I don't quite understand why people want mana regen so badly as druids. Yeah I have been using my majestic dragon figurine but I would be replacing it if there were any good trinkets that could replace it (thanks blizz itemization btw) but even without it I feel like mana regen is, and has been, a non-issue for druids in LK. Even when I see myself spamming glyphed HT (sartharion 3 drakes learning was fun). I can not think of a moment when either pots or innervate were on Cd and I had no mana left.

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Using nourish does not prevent you from swiftmending or having hots on the tank. Nobody is using it as their premiere raid healing spell, I hope, because our other spells are so much better at it. Nourish is for tank spam and the only thing that matters is HPS and perhaps reliability. It casting .5s faster then regrowth has nothing at all to do with it. With regards to reliability it shouldn't come as any suprise that nourish beats regrowth easily since a non crit regrowth is pretty damn horrible and on HPS it beats it with 4t7.

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To clarify on what I said earlier about Nourish, because I would put my Nourish use at <1%:

Basically I would only use Nourish:

1) If Swiftmend and NS are on cooldown

2) If I am not the tank healer, and I see the tank is at extreme risk of dying. In this case I would have to assume that someone else has a big heal incoming, and that my Nourish is going to help the tank live until the next hit. Also, if I happen to be the tank healer, there should be no reason for me to use nourish ever, because I should be regrowthing for more hps, and I am unlikely to have SM and NS on cooldown because I probably wouldn't have used it on another raid member. (And about the swing timer thing, even if the boss has a swing timer slow enough that nourish vs regrowth doesn't matter, there are still special boss abilities, and your own GCD to think about)

3) If Nature's Grace isn't up, because if it's up there's hardly a point in using a Nourish that is less than one second and having to wait on a GCD.

4) If there is not a more important way of using my GCD, such as refreshing a lifebloom stack that is about to expire.

On that note, I will argue with the people saying a nourish is useless, because I absolutely have had a situation where the person would have lived if I had nourished instead of regrowthed. The regrowth was fast enough to *hit* the target but not prevent him from dying (due to server/client lag) to a Frost Blast, and he would have lived if I nourished. This was in the first week or two of 10-man Naxx however, so his health and my haste would have been lower, but of course when you aren't overgeared for a fight is precisely when the nourish vs regrowth argument matters.

Sadly so many are incapable of trusting their cast time or their other raid members. There are plenty of other people in your raid that can "oh shit" your tank. If he's down below 20% that often then you should fix other problems. Nine chances out of ten you or your other druid buds let hots fall off, a pally assigned to the tank is busy FoL weaving, a priest is too busy blowing his load by slaming the left half of his keyboard raid healing when a Shaman could do it more efficiently.

I must disagree with Helius on this point, because if you assume someone else will save the tank you might be wrong, and if you let the tank die it's almost a guaranteed wipe, and that therefore makes whatever else you were doing (raid healing, saving mana, whatever) less important.

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