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Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion

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I think people are overestimating the use of Nourish. Not every spell is designed for raid use and I think Nourish is specifically designed for 5 mans.

In BC it was hard to single heal a heroic in non-raid gear because 3*LB+Reju+RG just didn't cut it in the harder hitting encounters. As such it was harder for Druids to start heroics, than other healers. A lot of druids were asking for a fast direct heal to cast when all HoTs were applied.

In 5man heroics I still find it quite useful: Apply HoTs and cast Nourish when needed (saving Swiftmend for emergencies).

I know this is EJ boards, but not everything Blizzard does is designed for the cutting edge. Some of us actually live outside endgame instances :)

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Also, if I happen to be the tank healer, there should be no reason for me to use nourish ever, because I should be regrowthing for more hps [...]

See, that's where you're wrong. Once you take into account that living seed overwrites itself most of the time regrowth is not more hps then nourish with 4t7. Nearly everyone spends 11 (14 with natural perfection) talent points and a major glyph dedicated to regrowth so it shouldn't come as a suprise that it's a good spell. However, for tank healing nourish, with 4t7, is the superior spell of choice. If not for the additional hps (6430 nourish vs 6199 regrowth) with 2800sp/19% crit/24,6% haste then use nourish for its reliability since in the worst case scenario, no crits, nourish still pulls 5483 while regrowth plummets to 3837. Granted it does not happen very often there will be times when it does. Healing is not so much about the average case like dps, it's the worst case that matters. This is also why most, non mana, procs are relatively useless for healing.

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Granted it does not happen very often there will be times when it does. Healing is not so much about the average case like dps, it's the worst case that matters. This is also why most, non mana, procs are relatively useless for healing.

I agree with this, as well as the post above, Nourish is not really intended as a raiding spell, it's there to fill out a Druids arsenal when they are the sole healer, so heroics. I've been using Nourish more and more because of it's reliability. Sometimes there are cases when I really need to heal the tank hard and the Regrowth casino fails me horribly with no crits for 4-5 casts. A Nourish does more than a non crit Regrowth, it's guaranteed and you've got a chance of doing more than you need which is nice.

I've come to lean on Regrowth as a crutch, using it in basically any situation where a group member has less than 70% HP and I'm trying to get out of that habit, because there have been times where if I just used Nourish instead things would've gone smoother.

But yes, in a raiding situation you'll have Priests and Paladins to fill the role you'd use Nourish for so of course you won't use it, it's definiteyl not useless though and I would miss it if it was removed. Having a glyph to further give it a unique role wouldn't hurt though, and Blizzard have made mention that it's planned so we'll see what comes of that.

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I've come to lean on Regrowth as a crutch, using it in basically any situation where a group member has less than 70% HP and I'm trying to get out of that habit, because there have been times where if I just used Nourish instead things would've gone smoother.

But yes, in a raiding situation you'll have Priests and Paladins to fill the role you'd use Nourish for so of course you won't use it, it's definiteyl not useless though and I would miss it if it was removed. Having a glyph to further give it a unique role wouldn't hurt though, and Blizzard have made mention that it's planned so we'll see what comes of that.

In what cases does using Nourish on random raid/group members (undoubtably without HoTs) end up superior to using Regrowth, Rejuvenation or Wild Growth? If the damage doesn't matter then WG or HoTs when you have time will do it much easier. If they need healing up fast then its pretty certain that they will need healing again soon in which case the additional HoTs will be much more beneficial than throwing off some very inferior Nourishes.

I don't get why people throw Nourish off as a 5 man tool, it has an obvious use as a tank heal in raiding because it ends up being equal or superior to Regrowth (mostly based on 4t7) already - the problem is there is almost no encounter where it matters yet so we are stuck on opinions and theorycraft and in both cases it really doesn't matter yet.

The only problem with counting on the Glyph to boost Nourish in the future is that we will most likely end up being unable to retain the 4t7 bonus at this stage so it comes down to a moot point unless the Glyph is really very good (20%+ boost).

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In what cases does using Nourish on random raid/group members (undoubtably without HoTs) end up superior to using Regrowth, Rejuvenation or Wild Growth? If the damage doesn't matter then WG or HoTs when you have time will do it much easier. If they need healing up fast then its pretty certain that they will need healing again soon in which case the additional HoTs will be much more beneficial than throwing off some very inferior Nourishes.

I like keeping the DPS topped off at all times, sometimes bad things happen and someone takes a lot of damage quickly, you don't want people hovering around 60% while HoTs tick just in case. I've been using Regrowth but as I said, sometimes it just doesn't crit and topping up the group with some 2s Regrowths and some 1.5s Regrowths that overheal by 50% seems inefficient when you can use Nourish more reliably and usually get back to healing the tank quicker. If they go through with adding Wild Growth to the spells that give Nourish it's bonus it will be even better for this role since the number 1 limiting factor for Nourish is having to cast a HoT on the target first to get your bang for your buck, and if you're casting a HoT then a Nourish then you might as well just cast a Regrowth. In 5 man situations I usually have a Rejuv sitting on anyone who might take damage in the near future, melee on Skadi for instance, so it's not that bad.

But as you said it's mostly just opinion and theorycraft at this point, obviously I've been just fine using Regrowth whenever, and I guess most other Druids have been as well, but when I've tried Nourish I've found that I'm able to more accurately gauge when I can get back to the tank, where a few non crit Regrowths can put me behind when I wasn't expecting to take so long to get back to him. It's definitely a niche spell in any case, but not without it's uses.

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I think people are overestimating the use of Nourish. Not every spell is designed for raid use and I think Nourish is specifically designed for 5 mans.

...

I know this is EJ boards, but not everything Blizzard does is designed for the cutting edge. Some of us actually live outside endgame instances :)

Raids != cutting edge. They intend for Nourish to have a use in raiding, you can easily glean this much from Blizzard posts on the topic. Right now they are overestimating the usefulness of the spell, or underestimating how great Regrowth is currently. I don't see how Nourish is all that much more useful in 5 mans either, aside from you're more likely to have HoTs up on your non-tank targets. Even then Nourish just isn't the clearly better option most of the time.

The problem right now is this: you don't need Nourish on your bars. Yeah people have pointed out the 1% of situations where it is superior, but I'm not seriously putting something on my bar for 1% of situations when the next-best option in that 1% is nearly as good. Regrowth and/or Nourish need some tweaking or a rework. Their uses are too similar and Regrowth is superior in nearly every way and situation.

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Not to mention that tying yourself to a set bonus isn't a particularly good idea, and nobody can argue that Nourish is even close to usable without it.

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Indeed, I can understand that Nourish isn't as useless as some people make out, but the fact you need a 4 piece bonus to keep it up there is dubious in regards to GCs statements like:

I think you should take a harder look at Nourish. We received so much feedback on Nourish that I was sort of going along with the conventional wisdom that Nourish didn't fill a large enough role. Since then a few druids have set me straight. It can be a really amazing spell.

Fair enough the masses are mostly complete idiots but if Nourish was really such an 'amazing' spell in at least several scenarios it would of been obvious by this point in time. If these 'few Druids' did not mention the need for 4t7 or lied and said it was fine without it... gosh.

There was also some other responces in this same thread that Regrowth was finally a good spell but it was no Flash Heal and that Nourish was not propped up by enough talents.

Regrowth needed nerfing because it went from a poor spell no one really used to one which got buffed to fit into as many roles as possible in order to get Druids to start using it again.

Eventually it got pushed more towards our 'Flash Heal' spell as we had no other but now that we actually have one they haven't re-edited Regrowth to lessen its potency for this role that it 'borrowed' which is something I believe needs to be done.

Reducing the direct heal and enhancing the HoT would give it a better role as it would fit nicely between RJ and Nourish in terms of raid healing, while boosting it slightly on HPS for the tank as the HoT is stronger.

Nourish was probably looked at cautiously in order to not make our new toy incredibly strong like what happened with Lifebloom but it has needed better incorporation into talents from the times in beta.

Empowered Touch should of always included it because a base HT only boosting spell will never go down well, bumping it up to be like Empowered Healing (Holy Priests) would go nicely into helping it scale beyond Regrowth and making Tranquil Spirit slightly easier to attain (replicate it from Moonglow) would also help.

A 20% bonus spell power boost would give Nourish around a 9% gain and keep it better than Glyphed Regrowth for tank healing even without the 4t7 bonus and it doesn't seem to go wildly over the top in comparison to Glyphed Regrowth at high spell power (5k) either.

I pointed it out in the EU beta forums but oh well at least they are looking at it now..

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A 20% coef boost (multiplicative) would not make nourish keep up without 4t7 until 3150 spellpower which is still some ways off. The whole problem is the RG glyph which is too good. It needs another nerf or change to be hot only because you should want to cast it when the hot is beneficial (or there's no hot for nourish) and not for the direct heal only. Making 4t7 into a nourish glyph would be decent and would keep regrowth as the go-to raid heal due to lack of hot multipliers on random people. A 20% coef boost on emp. HT and 4t7 turned into the nourish glyph (perhaps at 7%/hot) and the base boost recuded to 15% to further solidify nourish as the tank heal and regrowth as our direct heal for the raid. Making emp. HT more attractive might even make HT worth casting when you know there's a big burst incomming on the tank like drake breaths or whatever.

Also living seed needs a to not overwrite itself with a weaker seed, that's stupid.

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Why so much hate for Nourish? Isn't the spell a lot cheaper to cast than Regrowth, and with 4T7 heals for more than a non-crit Regrowth? Granted the spell is pretty situational, but I find it useful to help keep my tank topped off for fights such as Patchwerk.

I'm actually considering specing out of living seed and imp. tranquility to get tranquil spirit. Since Wow Web Stats shows that I actually use Nourish quite a bit, and living seed is just bad, for a 3 point investment deep within the resto tree.

Maybe i'm just being dumb, and Nourish really is not worth putting on your cast bar. Any pointers to improve my play are much appreciated. I'm almost always exclusively used as a MT healer-- I like the role, and i'm not too crazy about druid raid healing, as I have yet to play with an experienced enough healer that did not just heal over my hots.

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I still am happy with Nourish as it is now. It's a Flash Heal. In BC I would have loved a flash heal, I was a Regrowth lover but there are still times when Nourish would have been great, like on Lynx phase of Zul'jin, or the frost bolts in Winterchill. If you look at other healers like priests and shamans, Flash Heal/Lesser Healing Wave are very useful in a small number of situations, and are less efficient than their other heals. A priest/shaman would be considered bad if they used mostly Flash/LHW, but if they use them when they are most needed they are a good healer.

The one problem is that I believe for priest/shamans their Flash spell is very high hps, and very high mana cost, where Nourish seems to be trapped somewhere between Flash Heal and Flash of Light, because it's not more mana efficient than Regrowth and it's not (depending on gear) greater hps than Regrowth.

It still has its use as a very fast heal, and I think saying that you should completely remove it from your bars at this point in time is a bit ridiculous. Just because NS-HT is needed pretty rarely, it doesn't mean we shouldn't bother keeping it on our bars.

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Oktan, Nourish is only significantly cheaper than Regrowth if you're not in tree for some reason. That treeform discount applied to Regrowth is pretty impressive. Living Seed is really only useful for Imp+Glyphed Regrowth spam action for stabilizing tanks as far as I can tell (though really, wtf else are you going to put those 3 points into? Tranquil Spirit is godawful even if you use Nourish a lot, which you probably shouldn't be).

I like Nourish fine; I use it when someone's taking weird spiky raid damage that I already Rejuv'd them for (usually in heroics) or when I actually do need to be worried enough about mana efficiency on tank healing that Regrowth spam isn't an option (2-healing Patchwerk-10 with a low-dps raid). It's not useless, it's just not the end-all answer to all our healing issues. A bread-and-butter heal that is worth 5 talent points (!) for a 10% mana reduction it is not.

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I think nourish will be a big part of every druids game as this x-pac progresses. With 4pc and decent SP it already has a role to play. It's going to scale better than regrowth with spellpower, especially if you go for upgrades on pieces that aren't part of the tier set (weapons, neck rings etc.). In the new content-patch there is going to be a real issue for druids on when to drop the 4pc, even worse if WG works with it in the next patch.

As for WG nerf, i think it does need a CD, if only to improve its efficiency as well as druids skills. Personally i think WG on a 6sec CD is a little much, i'd like to see 3 or 4.

The problem i have is that CoH is a 41 point talent and is more efficient, in most circumstances, than WG a 51 point talent.CoH front loads the healing. WG is a HoT that targets(as i've observed) the lowest health toons within the radius, meaning spamming it on the raid results in overcasting. On top of that, currently for fights like Loatheb, Malygos and Gluth WG loses much of its efficiency if CoH is also being used because of the front load aspect. Granted this will improve with the CD, but i think the extra 10 talent points should at least get us a few seconds off the CD.

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Oktan, Nourish is only significantly cheaper than Regrowth if you're not in tree for some reason. That treeform discount applied to Regrowth is pretty impressive. Living Seed is really only useful for Imp+Glyphed Regrowth spam action for stabilizing tanks as far as I can tell (though really, wtf else are you going to put those 3 points into? Tranquil Spirit is godawful even if you use Nourish a lot, which you probably shouldn't be).

I like Nourish fine; I use it when someone's taking weird spiky raid damage that I already Rejuv'd them for (usually in heroics) or when I actually do need to be worried enough about mana efficiency on tank healing that Regrowth spam isn't an option (2-healing Patchwerk-10 with a low-dps raid). It's not useless, it's just not the end-all answer to all our healing issues. A bread-and-butter heal that is worth 5 talent points (!) for a 10% mana reduction it is not.

All true. However, cheaper is cheaper.

I'm at a bit of wits end on what to do with these 5 talent points. Currently these 5 points are in living seed and imp. tranquility. I feel that these are a waste. Living seed is, at best, 3-4% of my healing on any given boss fight, and since I main tank heal almost exclusively, imp. tranquility is a waste. So, that leaves talents like Naturalist, tranquil spirit, and replenish open-- all of which i feel are pretty lackluster. However, with my use of Nourish, I felt that tranquil spirit would probably be best.

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I had a bunch of stuff typed up and then rethought it. You're looking at 8 talent points for regrowth (imp regrowth and living seed), and 5 talent points (tranquil spirit) plus 4t7 for nourish. The 3 talent point difference can't go into anything I don't already have that I actually use really.

With how close they are, I'd rather not tie myself to the set bonus, since nothing in the game right now actually needs the difference between the two spells.

If they add a nourish glyph, add nourish to empowered touch, or make some other change I might change my mind, but being able to freely upgrade once Ulduar comes out will be nice.

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It depends on the fight, but I've been rather unimpressed with the direct heal portion of Regrowth. I still use it quite often, and always keep it up on the tank for the HoT portion, but for those situations where the tank is taking heavy damage or raid members need to be topped up quickly, I like Nourish.

Looking at a recent 25-man Patchwerk fight, theses were my numbers.

Regrowth:

2652 = Average non-crit

4368 = Average crit

Nourish:

5196 = Average non-crit

7773 = Average crit

I know the HoT portion is worthwhile for the steady healing, but I can't help but feel disappointed every time I see the direct heal of Regrowth hit someone for less than 3000.

I no not have the Regrowth glyph or 4t7.

Edit:

To piggyback off of what Playered just said, make sure that if you use Clique or anything similar you update your spells to their proper rank. I cleared all Wrath content before I noticed this :)

Thanks Curtdiggler, I had not updated my Clique bindings. Disregard the above numbers. Or delete the post.

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It depends on the fight, but I've been rather unimpressed with the direct heal portion of Regrowth. I still use it quite often, and always keep it up on the tank for the HoT portion, but for those situations where the tank is taking heavy damage or raid members need to be topped up quickly, I like Nourish.

Looking at a recent 25-man Patchwerk fight, theses were my numbers.

Regrowth:

2652 = Average non-crit

4368 = Average crit

Nourish:

5196 = Average non-crit

7773 = Average crit

I know the HoT portion is worthwhile for the steady healing, but I can't help but feel disappointed every time I see the direct heal of Regrowth hit someone for less than 3000.

I no not have the Regrowth glyph or 4t7.

Your Regrowth numbers act like you have 0 SP while your Nourish numbers act like you have 2300 SP.

Considering the base healing of Regrowth is close to (2364+SP*0.537*1.2)*1.06*1.04*1.1=2866.7 (with 0 SP)... have you not trained up your Regrowth ability from Rank 10 or something?

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To piggyback off of what Playered just said, make sure that if you use Clique or anything similar you update your spells to their proper rank. I cleared all Wrath content before I noticed this :)

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Living seed is, at best, 3-4% of my healing on any given boss fight, and since I main tank heal almost exclusively, imp. tranquility is a waste.

Just to make a quick objection. Both talents are somewhat disputable, both in design and actual playing impact. But still, i do have used Imp Tranquility a few time successfully, so i wouldn't call it a total waste. The 2 points, that i can't seem to spend at any other useful talent, turn a 'what the heck was blizzard smoking while designing this?' spell (to be honest, i do not understand any of the changes done to tranquility since the release of the game, the spell has never been anywhere near a really usable or even considered alternative) into a mediocre and seldom used 'oh, damn!' button. Of course, it only has very, very few uses, mostly i activate it if accidently somehow 3 or more groups of trash are pulled at once, because it ensures a short period of time, where the raid has time to react and regroup without having to watch out for the idiot pulling aggro through massive AE healing, as well as not having to pay that much attention to healing, because the heal output is somewhat significant.

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Just to make a quick objection. Both talents are somewhat disputable, both in design and actual playing impact. But still, i do have used Imp Tranquility a few time successfully, so i wouldn't call it a total waste. The 2 points, that i can't seem to spend at any other useful talent, turn a 'what the heck was blizzard smoking while designing this?' spell (to be honest, i do not understand any of the changes done to tranquility since the release of the game, the spell has never been anywhere near a really usable or even considered alternative) into a mediocre and seldom used 'oh, damn!' button. Of course, it only has very, very few uses, mostly i activate it if accidently somehow 3 or more groups of trash are pulled at once, because it ensures a short period of time, where the raid has time to react and regroup without having to watch out for the idiot pulling aggro through massive AE healing, as well as not having to pay that much attention to healing, because the heal output is somewhat significant.

Tranquility would be worth more if it healed the entire area it lands on, and not just your party. Although, that would probably make the spell quite powerful, as it heals for quite a bit.

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The 2 points, that i can't seem to spend at any other useful talent, turn a 'what the heck was blizzard smoking while designing this?' spell (to be honest, i do not understand any of the changes done to tranquility since the release of the game, the spell has never been anywhere near a really usable or even considered alternative) into a mediocre and seldom used 'oh, damn!' button.

Can't find any other useful talent? How about GotEM? Master Shapeshifter? Nature's grace? This is one of the weirdest builds I have seen.

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Living Seed is a talent where i still ponder what exact value it offers. The given healing percentage seems to be correct, a naxx clear usually shows 2-3%. From my personal point of view i would judge it as a somewhat to weak reward for the invested points. I do see the point, the devs where trying to make here, i.e. giving druids a shieldlike ability without really providing control, which means, it doesn't really compare to Earthshield or PW:S. The main problem, which devalues the idea somewhat, is the old druid problem: a lot of our spells can't crit, and so cannot trigger Living Seed. The spells which are supposed to trigger this mechanic more often than not usually only provide an average Seed value (Regrowth Crits, mainly).

In its actual incarnation i do like to include Living Seed in my build, just because it works toward even more smoothing the incoming damage on a tank with being a reactive, instant heal. But it still is looked upon by me as a very weak talent which i would most likely replace, if there were a more appealing choice. Which Nature's Grace just is not in it's current state, because it only supports a somewhat lazy or nonflexible style of play (that means, trigger it with a Regrowth or hoping for a trigger during HT spam just seems to contradict druidic healing).

On Four Horseman (8 second lag the first pull for everyone in the raid, lags a hard gimmick), I got 3% of my healing from Living Seed - I was one of two healers healing the ranged tanks in the back.

Wow Web Stats

On Instructor Razuvious death, Living Seed accounted for 4% of my healing:

Wow Web Stats

So on those fights, I'm pleased with how living seed is working out and am thankful for the extra healing it gives. Rest of the night Living Seed accounted for 0-1% of my healing though.. which is expected when a lot more of my healing comes from hots rather than direct heals on people that are likely not topped off already. Therefore, Living Seed can be situationally great on the fights that you are casting direct heals on people that aren't likely to be at 100% health.

Side note: I absolutely love having a full arsenal of heals this expansion! :)

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Just an observation, and perhaps an obvious one, but it strikes me that a lot of people, myself included, have been trying to evaluate Living Seed mostly by seeing that it accounts for about 3% of our total healing, give or take. Healing is nothing like DPS. It's the kind of healing that's as important as the amount. The least important kind is passive healing (JoL, LotP, etc). Hots are better than that and your standard on-demand front-loaded heals better than that. Best of all are preventative heals, of which is LS is one. They're like smart heals with no cast time and no GCD. It would be nicer if it were a true PW:S-like absorb in which case of course it would show up as 0% of our total healing. (Seems like shields are the domain of Holy spells lore-wise and never Nature.) So take that 3% for what it is and nothing more. The example I like to compare it to is NS+HT. No one uses the fact that it accounts for only 1% of our total healing as a basis for judging its usefulness. I think just cuz LS is this new, weird, invisible heal we're all kinda groping to evaluate it's strength.

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My position on this Regrowth vs. Nourish discussion is the following. While you are an undergeared druid, not having any haste and crit at all, plus having very bad mana regeneration on top of that, nourish will be better. The point is that using Regrowth might eventually end you up with 0 mana in the middle of the event. The glyphs are of course the things that matter at this point too. Personally, when I just dinged level 80 I had Lifebloom, Swiftmend and Innervate glyphs. I was doing a lot of testing with my talents and ended up with this spec.

After I got some gear from 25m content, I have found myself with almost full mana in the end of any encounter. That was the point when I overlooked my glyphs, spec and gems. First of all, I have changed my gems from all that spirit/spellpower, int/spellpower and pure spirit to pure spellpower. After that, I have swapped my Innervate glyph to the Regrowth one and adjusted the spec slightly. That is when Regrowth became drastically superior to Nourish for me (no t7 set bonus helps that too). I still don't have problems with mana unless a couple of healers in the raid disconnect or die early in the fight, but my hps increased by a lot. HPS is all I care about now, as soon as I don't watch at my mana bar anymore.

And yes. I am not just going brainless RG spam. It's all situation dependant. For example, on KT tombs I will most likely throw Nourish over Regrowth.

Now on the Living Seed discussion. I agree with moxy on that. The talent itself is very good. It has very nice synergy with our hots. In fact, I find LS as an additional 'hot' if you can call it so. It 'ticks', like lifebloom, rejuv and regrowth do, and thus partially lowers the spike on the tank. That seems to be VERY handy on bosses like Sartharion with adds, Malygos and Patchwerk.

P.S. By the way, the cast time difference between Regrowth and Nourish is not 0.5 seconds as most of you mention here. With some haste on the gear it is around 0.35-0.4 seconds or so.

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