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Jol

Druid roles in EJ

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O.o I thought that would have been obvious.

I was very confused where that DM had come from till I found the other thread. There wasn't really any explanation in this one.

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Unfortunately, I don't think there is anyone in EJ who has played a shaman and a druid all the way to 60, so there is a lot of misunderstanding between the two classes.

I played a sixty shaman for over 3 months in my free time because I was quite bored with my druid. Played up to exalted in Alterac Valley, and did a few MC runs.

I think there is a perception cross classes that the only thing druids and shaman can be used for in a raiding situation is healing...and in many cases the actors in the classes do simply that, just healing.

With shaman you always had the alternative of being a Fjord, doing some really swell dps while healing your ass off and do it well. Up until now we druids didn't have this same option.

The silly situation we are in now is much like the dredger situation this spring, Weapons with strength are given to shaman not because shaman are out to get druids, but because shamen, and everyone else, dont see the DPS of a weapon effecting the druids style of gameplay. Rightfully so now that catform actually does more damage than wacking things with a staff.

In many cases blizzard has been about a month or two behind the ideas presented by the playerbase...but this is still a subject that needs to be adressed. They need to understand that druids want intellect and strength, but at the same. time we dont care about the DPS of a weapon. If they could cure that matter, I think we could have weapons that people point out and say "Hey thats a druid weapon, why would a shaman want that"

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Another thing, When blizzard itemizes i dont think they realise that the players at end game really dont have the luxury of taking a step back and saying "its just an item in a game, let druids in if they want it" We have to look at how it would be best used in a raid setting, the most common styles of play and all sorts of other things like that.

Even if noone really wants to say it, we are competing in this game...competing for fame and fortune and all that cal.

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It's a complex issue.

Druid DPS needs to be truly viable in a raid setting, or Xi actually ends up being right at the end of the day. People bitch about the BWL trinkets (not the ubertrinkets... the shitty class ones off the early bosses) because they mostly have zero raid utility. The warrior one is super hot, but the others are either PvP gimmicks or absolute garbage. And why should PvP gimmicks be occupying a slot that might otherwise contain an awesome weapon or caster upgrade? Feral druids need the gear, but if feral druids still have no real place on raids, then the gear is wasted space on loot tables.

But at the same time, push it too far, and hey, you've just made rogues useless.

I don't envy Blizzard's task in trying to balance hybrids to truly be hybrids in a raid setting.

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To make druid DPS viable in raids, Blizzard doesn't need to make them on par with rogues - they just need to make it equally tempting as having the druid healing... Whether or not druids can DPS as well as they can heal, though, they'll still be needed for raids; GotW and Rebirth make sure of that. What Blizzard ideally needs to do is make it so, since a raid is taking 4-8 druids anyway, the druids can comfortably fill any shortcamings the raid has, whether in terms of off-tanks, secondary healers, or extra DPS.

In regards to itemization, it's an unfortunate reality that Blizzard has made certain item slots more valuable to certain classes, especially for raiding guilds. Assuming good stats for each, main-hand weapons are more valuable to warriors than hunters, off-hand weapons are more valuable to hunters than warriors. 2H maces with caster stats are valuable to shaman and druids, staves with the same stats are slightly more valuable to shaman, while a 1 handed mace and off-hand item are more valuable to druids than to the shaman. The trouble here is that shaman don't compete with druids for off-hand items, but rather with warriors for shields (though most shields are pretty clear-cut decisions, especially for raiding purposes). One possible way to fix this would be to make good off-hand items that are particularly geared towards druids, rather than casters in general, which would not only give druids one item slot they don't have to fight for, but also make daggers and 1-handed maces with caster stats slightly better for them than for shaman.

I have a feeling that after Burning Crusade comes out, feral druids will stack up quite favorably with other melee, (at least until the new endgame instances reach farm status) as much of their performance scales directly with level, rather than being specifically linked to one piece of gear.

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as much of their performance scales directly with level, rather than being specifically linked to one piece of gear.

The biggest current problem with Druid itemization is that druids are basically required to get PvP sets to be extensible in roles within a single fight.

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To clarify: while druid gear obviously determines how well they can fill different roles, unlike other melee DPS, it's not specifically linked to one item slot.

Take a druid in 7/8 Cenarion, and one piece of Wildheart and a rogue in 7/8 Nightslayer, with one piece of Shadowcraft Give them both a reasonable weapon to buy at 60, like Twig of the World Tree, or Assassination Blade, or Heartseeker.

The druid will get about the same upgrade whether he replaces his weapon, or his last piece of blue armor. While the rogue wouldn't mind replacing that last piece of shadowcrap with NS or Bloodfang, he gets much, much more of an upgrade from replacing his current weapon with a Claw of the Black Drake or with Perdition's Blade.

I'm not claiming druids aren't dependent on gear, I'm not quite that painfully noobish. All the good druids I know, and even about half of the crappy ones, keep multiple sets of gear for multiple roles.

___________________________________________________

So as I don't hijack the thread, here's one possible solution that's occurred to me regarding the viability of feral druid DPS in raids: Make it so that, when in catform, crits cause extra agro proportional to the extra damage.

That is, for most classes, an attack that hits for 10 and causes 10 agro will crit for 20 and cause 30 agro, to (over)simplify. With this alteration, the ratio of extra damage:extra agro will stay the same; so an attack that crits for 20 will cause 20 agro. This would make how well a druid can DPS the deciding factor in whether or not they can be used as raid DPS, not where other classes agro plateaus off at. Also, it would primarily benefit druids with crit talents in the feral tree, rathen than just being a reason for all druids to spec restoration but keep some feral gear around. Any thoughts?

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hey Blizzard, how about some 50+ DPS 1h weapons with actual caster stats on them? Fang was nice back in March, but come on now.

http://img476.imageshack.us/my.php?image=w...052259103hn.jpg

Despite the fact that Aurastone Hammer is only ~45 dps, its 78 - 161 damage range is nothing to scoff at. I've said this many times before, but this hits like a truck when windfury procs with crits. I've killed Penfourteen multiple times under two seconds or so with a delicious windfury proc and earthshock.

So get one ok

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I just thought this particular item was special. 2-3 other shamans who weren't on that run were crying when they heard it dropped. It's probably, by a longshot, the item most desired by the MC/BWL-geared EJ shamans repeatedly running Z'G these days.

I miss the dps of my dredger when soloing things and this is pretty much equal dps wise.

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So as I don't hijack the thread, here's one possible solution that's occurred to me regarding the viability of feral druid DPS in raids: Make it so that, when in catform, crits cause extra agro proportional to the extra damage.

That is, for most classes, an attack that hits for 10 and causes 10 agro will crit for 20 and cause 30 agro, to (over)simplify. With this alteration, the ratio of extra damage:extra agro will stay the same; so an attack that crits for 20 will cause 20 agro.

I think it's retarded for crits on any class to generate aggro beyond the actual damage dealt. I realize it makes sense in that it would really piss a monster off, but no class should be punished for increasing their critical strike chance, and by no means should any class ultimately do LESS damage in a raid setting because of high crit.

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Oookay

New fun results from MC last night. I think we can safely say that feral druids aren't a waste now :).

I basically DPSed all the way through Domo, except on Gehennas, Geddon, and Shazz. In the DM sync done pre-Rag, I was #11 :o. Then in the Rag fight I swapped to being a MT healer and ended up being #5 on HM (yeah I know, HM is dumb, but it's all we've got).

My average instantaneous dps was usually between 300-400, and the only times I pulled aggro were on a few trash mobs where I wasn't using cower at all.

I respecced last week to a 14/31/6 build to add OOC, Natural Weapons, and Furor, and dropped all of my healing talents. It seems like it really made a huge difference, although I also added a Bulwark, Dark Heart Pants, and a Maeltsrom to the mix.

Also, per the druid aggro discussion: There's a talent that increases our threat whil in bear form, it seems like having it reduce cat form threat by an equal % would be a good fix.

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Also, per the druid aggro discussion: There's a talent that increases our threat whil in bear form, it seems like having it reduce cat form threat by an equal % would be a good fix.

I really really don't understand this argument. Right now, Robotdog is fucking amazing at many things in not only PVP but PVE. I just finished soloing the level 51 Elite quest in the Hinterlands for the AP trinket. Yes, I said soloing at level 52.

The Druid is meant to be a jack of all trades class and not the best at anything in particular, especially at consistent DPS without pulling agro. Giving cat form a % of threat reduction would really tip the scales in PVE damage towards the druid. And even then, PVE damage is all about the epeen so why worry about doing more? Tradtionally, you're not meant to do as much damage in a raid setting as a rogue or mage (yes, I realize mages suck at dealing damage in raid settings blah blah).

Druids have fewer options in their respective forms but having all of those forms is one of the most powerful weapons in game right now.

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Well, that's true, and as mentioned I ddint really have a lot of aggro problems anyway. There was just a bunch of brainstorming about deaggros and that was an idea that popped into my head a few days ago :)

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Oookay

New fun results from MC last night. I think we can safely say that feral druids aren't a waste now :).

I basically DPSed all the way through Domo, except on Gehennas, Geddon, and Shazz. In the DM sync done pre-Rag, I was #11 :o. Then in the Rag fight I swapped to being a MT healer and ended up being #5 on HM (yeah I know, HM is dumb, but it's all we've got).

My average instantaneous dps was usually between 300-400, and the only times I pulled aggro were on a few trash mobs where I wasn't using cower at all.

I respecced last week to a 14/31/6 build to add OOC, Natural Weapons, and Furor, and dropped all of my healing talents. It seems like it really made a huge difference, although I also added a Bulwark, Dark Heart Pants, and a Maeltsrom to the mix.

Also, per the druid aggro discussion: There's a talent that increases our threat whil in bear form, it seems like having it reduce cat form threat by an equal % would be a good fix.

How much damage did you do though? I find this to be a better way to measure my standing of doing DPS and healing than my place on the DMs.

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Well, that's true, and as mentioned I ddint really have a lot of aggro problems anyway. There was just a bunch of brainstorming about deaggros and that was an idea that popped into my head a few days ago :)

Yeah, I realize smart druids will be able to hold back their agro but most druids probably bitch endlessly about how they get agro too much in raid settings.

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I think it's retarded for crits on any class to generate aggro beyond the actual damage dealt. I realize it makes sense in that it would really piss a monster off, but no class should be punished for increasing their critical strike chance, and by no means should any class ultimately do LESS damage in a raid setting because of high crit.

On the other hand, if a bear form druid gets a maul crit, it's almost impossible for him to lose aggro. At least it works both ways. Imagine if warriors somehow lost aggro for critting, that would be a nightmare.

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How much damage did you do though? I find this to be a better way to measure my standing of doing DPS and healing than my place on the DMs.

Sadly I am a noob and hit my dmclear macro instead of my normal gear macro right before Geddon, so I was relying on others for the DM results at the end of the run. That's a good point though, I'll try and keep track of that.

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