Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ashaera

Moonkin Guide for Dummies!

256 posts in this topic

This is mostly meant as an easy way for newcomers / busy people to catch up on basic moonkin info. The other Moonkin threads are filled with questions that have allready been answered, but I suppose searching to find the up-to-date answer aint allways easy.

Discontinued as of patch 3.09.

Step 1 - Speccing your Moonkin

Whats the right spec for a specific moonkinplayer is hard to answer, but I'll share my view on a basic spec & how your needs may vary.

Basic starter spec

This leaves 10 points to play around with.

Mana - Adjust as needed, 10man needs differ alot from 25man etc.

Omen of Clarity > Intensity > Dreamstate > Moonglow

In some specific gear cases Dreamstate (Atleast the first 4% point) might outshine Intensity.

Raid buffs - Most likely to be an issue in 10mans.

* If your not 100% sure to be grouped with a shadowpriest then 3/3 Improved Faerie Fire is a must. In either case a 25man raid boss should allways have a minor armor buff on, this basically means that you should be casting Faerie Fire whenever you arent raiding with a feral.

* If your raid doesn't have a resto druid then 2/2 Imp. Mark of the Wild is a better than 2/3 Nature's Focus

10/25 man

* Imp. Insect Swarm & Celestial Focus are strong dps talents & should be included after you are done filling the mana, aoe & utility talents you want.

* Starfall - Dps increase on singletarget so any spare points could be spend well here.

* Typhoon - Some hate it & some love it. I'd recommed you to try it out & see how you feel about it. With the glyph it has become a pretty useful spell.

* Most Moonkins will want 2/2 Gale Winds for stronger aoe.

* At some point of gearing a 25man raiding moonkin may want to swap all mana talents out & go for minor dps talents. Brambles is an option, but opinions differ.

* Owlkin Frenzy Estimation of % gain for T7 raids Not a huge sample size, but unless you have alot of points to spare I wouldnt invest in this with the current boss encounters.

Focus on singletarget dps spec - 3 points for regen / aoe utility left up to you.

My usual Naxxramas spec - Wouldnt recommend this unless you know what you are doing though.

Step 2 - Setting up your moonkin

Instead of derailing this thread by posting my idea of best pre-Ulduar set i'll settle for some basic advice (Check page 2 for a few wishlists if thats what you are looking for).

*4x Tier 7 - The bonus is too good to ignore, best place to look for the off-piece is legs.

*Hit Cap - You need 10% from gear (9% for alliance grouped with a Draenei), getting hit capped is allways the right answer.

*Gemming Spellpower is a more powerful stat than haste / crit - Your gem choices should reflect this.

- Red = [item]Runed Scarlet Ruby[/item]

- Yellow = [item]Reckless Monarch Topaz[/item] or [item]Veiled Monarch Topaz[/item]/[item]Rigid Autumn's glow[/item] if below hit cap.

- Blue = [item]Purified Twilight Opal[/item] enough to reach meta-requirement, after that you are usually better of going for a red gem in blue slots.

- Meta = [item]Chaotic Skyflare Diamond[/item] is alot better than any other option.

*Crit vs Haste rating - 1 haste rating offers more dps than 1 crit rating, which means that items of equal itemlvl will tend to be stronger if they have haste rating. In 25man raids you recieve a huge amount of crit from buffs (10%mage, 3% ret/ele, 5%moonkin form, 5%T7, 7% talents, Bok+Arc. Int) which eliminates alot of the mana & slow Eclipse proc problems.

*Major Glyphs

[item]Glyph of Moonfire[/item] + [item]Glyph of Starfire[/item] are a must for any serious raiding moonkin.

[item]Glyph of Insect Swarm[/item] is best option as 3rd glyph dps-wise - [item]Glyph of Innervate[/item] might be an alternative if you are starved on mana.

*Minor Glyphs

[item]Glyph of Typhoon[/item]

[item]Glyph of Unburdened Rebirth[/item]

[item]Glyph of Thorns[/item]

[item]Glyph of Dash[/item]

Consumeables

Flask = [item]Flask of the frost wyrm[/item], no Elixir combo can match it

Food = [item]tender shoveltusk steak[/item] or one of the other +46spellpower options fx [item]Fish feast[/item]. Hit Rating food if you can utilize a huge portion of it, but in reality staying below hit cap with gear+talents+debuffs is hard.

Potion = [item]Potion of speed[/item] for dps / [item]Runic Mana Potion[/item] if needed

Enchants

Im only listing best, most have cheaper options (Not listing profession specific enchants).

Head - [item]Arcanum of Burning Mysteries[/item]

Shoulder [item]Greater Inscription of the Storm[/item]

Cloak - [item]Scroll of Enchant Cloak - Haste[/item]

Chest - [item]Scroll of Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats[/item]

Bracers - [item]Scroll of Enchant Bracer - Superior Spellpower[/item]

Weapon - [item]Scroll of Enchant Weapon - Mighty Spellpower[/item]

Gloves - [item]Scroll of Enchant Gloves - Exceptional Spellpower[/item]

Belt - [item]Eternal Belt Buckle[/item] Techically not an enchant, but worth mentioning.

Leggings - [item]Brilliant Spellthread[/item]

Boots - [item]Scroll of Enchant Boots - Icewalker[/item]

Step 3 - Rotation

IFF = Improved Faerie Fire

IS = Insect Swarm

MF = Moonfire

W = Wrath

SF = Starfire

Strategy at the pull -

IFF->IS->MF->W*x->Eclipse proc -> SF*x

IFF only if you dont have a shadowpriest or other moonkin applying the 3% hit buff.

IS/MF first doesnt matter much, my reasoning behind this order is to secure that Eclipse procs as close to the initial MF cast as possible.

Priorities

*If Eclipse is procced -> Spam SF.

*If Eclipse is on hidden cooldown & all dots are up -> Spam SF

*If Eclipse is on hidden cooldown & dots arent up -> Reapply MF+IS. Reapplication doesnt overlap & reapplying dots fast is key to high owldamage. MF the best spell of the two dots so prioritize that.

*If Eclipse is ready -> Apply dots as needed, spam W if dots are up.

The last few %

*Force of Nature -> Communicate with your shamans & make sure to cast trees just before heroism. Having a warrior use battle shout at this point helps aswell (but less important than heroism).

*During Heroism -> Drop IS from your rotation as heroism boosted SF in most cases will outperform it. Keep casting MF & use W to proc SF-Eclipses.

*[item]Potion of Speed[/item] - Optimal time to use this is just as Eclipse procs, use it at the time you start spamming 80%+ crit Starfires.

*Plan ahead Most fights involve movement, if you know that you will be forced to move soon (Fx Thaddius) then wait with dot reapplication till your moving anyway -- A fight like Grobbulus involves more constant running, make sure to get all your movement done while your casting dots & waiting for the global CD anyway. Working on stuff like this & being able to perform it, while wathing for aggro+fissures+lava waves+a 2nd dragon with nasty breath landing behind you, is what seperates the good player from the bad - Any idiot can run a rotation on Patchwerk.

Step 4 - Mods & Professions

Mods

Scrolling Combat Text - Getting a clear indication of when Eclipse procs (If you fail to see the giant moon) & Nature's Grace proc info is nice for knowing when to expect an Eclipse proc to happen soon.

Squawk and Awe - Moonkin musthave addon. Tracks dot duration, eclipseprocs & more important it shows you the hidden eclipse cooldown time.

Ratingbuster - Shows you the actual % gain from haste & crit, also converts Intellect+Spirit into Spellpower. Not really needed, but helpful.

Spreadsheet

Wrathcalc is a great tool to help you finding the right rotation & learning when dot reapplications are worth it: http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t37800-wrathcalcs_moonkin_dps_spreadsheet/

Professions

*Jewelcrafting - 3x Prismatic gems, which on top of being very good means reaching socketbonuses you would skip elsewhise & not having to use blue gems for metagem bonus. Minimum gain with current gems is 56spellpower / Minimum gain with epic gems is 46spellpower.

*Blacksmithing - 2 additional sockets. 38spellpower with current gems, 46spellpower once epic gems arrive.

*Enchanting - 38spellpower from ring enchants.

*Leatherworking - 37spellpower from better bracer enchant.

*Alchemy - 37spellpower from Mixology boosting your flask (& double duration on flasks).

*Inscription - 37spellpower from better shoulder enchant.

Min-maxing for now means JC + BS/Ench.

Min-maxing with epic gems means JC + BS.

Best of luck with your owl.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice post--I was just thinking of doing something like this myself given the high frequency of basic question lately.

-----

Nitpicks on spec:

Isn't IFF a better personal DPS increase than CF (you say yourself later that 1% crit > 1% haste, which I think is correct)?

I'd have the spec section read:

1) If no Shadowpriest, take 3/3 IFF

2) If you plan to AoE at all, take Gale Winds, OoC, and Starfall

3) Fill mana talents in the following order until you do not run out of mana: OoC, Intensity, Dreamstate, Moonglow

4) Put remaining points into DPS talents in the following order: IFF, IIS, CF, Brambles

For the vast majority of Moonkin in typical PvE situations, the result is:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?druid=00000000000000000000000000000025003012000000000000000005012203125031303213305301231&glyph=071911000000

With the last 3 in either CF or Intensity depending on mana needs.

edit:

In fact, now that I think about it, no realistic combination results in leaving out IFF so you can just include in the "base" spec.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great Post. After being a Mage since beta, I've just switched to Moonkin, have hit 80 and am now gearing myself up.

Quick question on IFF. I've taken the talent to cover for when our SP is absent, but given that we have a Druid main tank, if the SP is using Misery, will I still gain the +crit bonus from the Tank's FF?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great Post. After being a Mage since beta, I've just switched to Moonkin, have hit 80 and am now gearing myself up.

Quick question on IFF. I've taken the talent to cover for when our SP is absent, but given that we have a Druid main tank, if the SP is using Misery, will I still gain the +crit bonus from the Tank's FF?

Can't find the post right now, but I believe someone recently tested this (by using Resilience to drop the crit rate to 0), and found that it does work with any application of FF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(you say yourself later that 1% crit > 1% haste, which I think is correct)?

This is not the case. For the moment ignoring Nature's Grace, in straight up DPS, 1% Haste is exactly equal to 1% crit if and only if your haste and crit percentage are identical. In all other cases, the stat which you have less of is worth more. Now, given Nature's Grace, the balance does shift toward Crit, but not by very much. Crit also provides mana regen of course. But given that your base raid haste is much less than your base raid crit (50% raid-buffed crit is not unheard of, can you say the same for 50% raid-buffed haste?), haste is almost always going to be the better option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is not the case. For the moment ignoring Nature's Grace, in straight up DPS, 1% Haste is exactly equal to 1% crit if and only if your haste and crit percentage are identical. In all other cases, the stat which you have less of is worth more. Now, given Nature's Grace, the balance does shift toward Crit, but not by very much. Crit also provides mana regen of course. But given that your base raid haste is much less than your base raid crit (50% raid-buffed crit is not unheard of, can you say the same for 50% raid-buffed haste?), haste is almost always going to be the better option.

Whoops, yeah, I'd actually done the rough calculation here and slightly misremembered the result when I posted above:

http://elitistjerks.com/1028996-post201.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For general interest, I'd rather do a more exact comparison of crit/haste scaling in the presence of Nature's Grace. I'm just curious, since unlike normal scaling, the Nature's Grace term actually gets more valuable as you get more crit. The value of 1% of each is nearly identical at values like 15% haste, 60% crit.

----

DPS D is given by:

D=k(1+H)(1+cC)\frac{1}{(1-nC)}, where

H is haste value

C is crit chance

c is crit bonus (typically 1.09)

n is Nature's Grace cast reduction (1/6 for Starfire)

k is an arbitrary constant for any fixed value of spellpower and hit chance

Taking logarithmic derivatives to find relative marginal values of H and C (and skipping the algebra):

\frac{1}{D}\frac{dD}{dH}=\frac{1}{(1+H)}

(same as for any caster)

\frac{1}{D}\frac{dD}{dC}=\frac{c}{(1+cC)}+\frac{n}{1-nC}

(first term is the same as for any caster, second term is the new increasing Nature's Grace term)

----

Evaluating at a sample point (c=1.09, n=1/6, C=50%), 1% to crit gives 0.89% DPS, whereas it would have given 0.71% without Nature's Grace. At any value over 12% haste, haste gives less than this.

So they're very close, and the line of equivalence passes right through typical gear regions. Given how imperceptible the difference is, it's probably not worth worrying about either way--I'm sure it's underneath the precision of any theorycraft we're doing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so hamlet it is safe to assume that above 12 % haste a moonkin, if he could would want to stack more crit in gear rather then haste?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ashaera:

First of all, great post and great initiative, thank you!

A few points:

1. Regarding the spec you suggested, Arawethion is correct and you can just add IFF to it. Also, considering starter moonkins will spec mostly for 10 man or 5 man runs, I believe points in IMotW are better spent than points in Nature's Focus, as you are not assured to have a tree around.

2. You use the term Nature's Grasp procs several times. I suppose you mean Nature's Grace procs, but just so that new owls will know precisely what we are talking about.

3. You mention Starfall to be a single target DPS boost, is that so? I mean, I know that one drop of stars does tons of damage, but considering the CD, is it really worth the point with only single-target DPS in mind?

4. I've seen it several times, but I don't understand why would [iTEM]Chaotic Skyflare Diamond[/iTEM] be better than [iTEM]Ember Skyflare Diamond[/iTEM]? I mean, on a 1:1 comparison 25 spell power is worth more than 21 crit, and the 2% int even gives some crit on it's own, so why is that gem better?

5. What is the Alchemy ability that gives you 37 spell power?

Again, thanks a lot for the post and hard work gathering the material, well done!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alchemy in itself doesn't give a raw 37 spell damage, but Alchemists get mixology which increases the effect and duration of elixir and flasks. So when using a flask of the frost wyrm you get double duration and 37 extra spell power from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On metagem

Counting Eclipse then most moonkins will be looking at 60%+ crit rate on Starfire rather soon - Ill admit that my choice is very biased by a past as mage but Im rather sure. My initial post might be too conclusive but for now i'll leave it as it stands for clarity.

---

On Starfall

Looking at my Patchwerk parses I get : 7770damage (30% crit), 9541damage (50% crit), 6838damage (10% crit) & week 1 with 2 casts: 16341damage (45% crit). Around 8k damage for a instant spell - The 9.5k damage 1 has the correct crit % though. Even before Nature's Grace procs this is better than half a Starfire.

---

@Poad (on haste): 12% haste is to be assumed yes - Imp moonkin aura adds 3%, a shaman another 5% & Celestrial Focus 3% more if you pick that. 20-25% haste with 25man buffs is easily obtainable.

---

Crit vs Haste

1 thing that matters alot (atleast this is my opinion) is how fast you proc Eclipse - I don't really gear for stacking crit, but I know what it does do my dps when I catch unlucky RNG while spamming Wrath. Adding 5% crit doesnt make a huge difference here though, but I feel a serious blow when I go for starfire eclipses in a 10man with 10-12% lowered crit.

---

On spec

We are never going to agree on a base, I know that. I'd love to keep the first post simple, but ill adjust it abit to reflect other views.

1 problem is that my needs doesn't exacly match those of a starter moonkin & I tend to look upon some talents as baseline that might not be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DPS D is given by:

D=k(1+H)(1+cC)\frac{1}{(1-nC)}, where

H is haste value

C is crit chance

c is crit bonus (typically 1.09)

n is Nature's Grace cast reduction (1/6 for Starfire)

k is an arbitrary constant for any fixed value of spellpower and hit chance

Note that H in this formula is Haste from gear only (perhaps consumables also, idk). Haste from talents, bloodlust, etc. are included in k. Certainly plenty of Moonkin have >12% from gear, but don't include CF or IMkF when making that check.

C is crit from all sources, including Eclipse.

Also, your spells with no significant crit (FF, MF, IS, Rebirth, Hurricane (c=.545)) will get some benefit from haste.

This doesn't really change the underlying conclusion. They are roughly equal in value (on a % basis), depending on gear and raid makeup. On a rating basis, haste is likely to be ahead, unless you have mana issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Originally Posted by Arawethion

DPS D is given by:

D=k(1+H)(1+cC)\frac{1}{(1-nC)}, where

H is haste value

C is crit chance

c is crit bonus (typically 1.09)

n is Nature's Grace cast reduction (1/6 for Starfire)

k is an arbitrary constant for any fixed value of spellpower and hit chance

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this assesment neglecting wrath, since n only values NG reduction to starfire? (being that haste is worth nothing to a NG'd wrath, plus wrath starts out with 1/3 NG cast reduction)

Toward the original post, I think it is pretty safe to say at this point that haste rating is a better DPS stat than crit rating (its just so much cheaper), unless looking at mana efficiency, which in all likelyhood is better addressed through talents anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4. I've seen it several times, but I don't understand why would [iTEM]Chaotic Skyflare Diamond[/iTEM] be better than [iTEM]Ember Skyflare Diamond[/iTEM]? I mean, on a 1:1 comparison 25 spell power is worth more than 21 crit, and the 2% int even gives some crit on it's own, so why is that gem better?

Your comparing the wrong part of the gem. The 3% increase to Crit Damage is why you want the Chaotic Skyflare Diamaond.

I haven't run the numbers it recently, but back during BC I found that the 3% increase was worth at least 25 Spell Power by itself. The 2% increase to Int is very minor. I'm not exactly sure how it is calculated but fully raid buffed I have 1200 Int. An extra 2% is just 24 Int.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I haven't run the numbers it recently, but back during BC I found that the 3% increase was worth at least 25 Spell Power by itself. The 2% increase to Int is very minor. I'm not exactly sure how it is calculated but fully raid buffed I have 1200 Int. An extra 2% is just 24 Int.

I'm pretty sure the 3% crit damage is worth on the order of 100 spellpower.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this assesment neglecting wrath, since n only values NG reduction to starfire? (being that haste is worth nothing to a NG'd wrath, plus wrath starts out with 1/3 NG cast reduction)

Toward the original post, I think it is pretty safe to say at this point that haste rating is a better DPS stat than crit rating (its just so much cheaper), unless looking at mana efficiency, which in all likelyhood is better addressed through talents anyway.

Right, it omits a lot of things. It's just to show:

1) NG is important enough that we can't assume haste is better than crit simply because we have far less of it.

2) It's going to be close enough in typical cases that only detailed Eclipse rotation calculation can provide a meaningful answer--and even then it might be a coin toss.

And yes, this all results in haste rating being far better with any realistic gear setup.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Professions

*Blacksmithing - 2 additional gems. 38spellpower with current gems, 46spellpower once epic gems arrive.

*Enchanting - 38spellpower.

*Leatherworking - 37spellpower.

*Alchemy - 37spellpower (& double duration on flasks).

*Inscription - 37spellpower.

*Jewelcrafting - 39spellpower gained vs normal gems, 27spellpower once epic gems arrive. On top of this the JC special gems are prismatic which means that you meet the 2x blue gem requirement without using poor gems & on top of this you also optain some socketbonusses that would otherwise have been skipped.

Min-maxing for now means JC + BS/Ench.

Min-maxing with epic gems means BS + probably JC.

This whole section is misleading at best and slightly confusing at worst.

Blacksmithing: You don't get two additional gems, you gain the abilities Socket Bracer and Socket Gloves.

Enchanting: You don't get 38 spell power for simply being an enchanter, you get Enchant Ring - Superior Spellpower and you apply this to both rings.

Leatherworking: Again, you don't get 37 spell power for signing up, but you do get Fur Lining - Spell Power that gives +67 spell power which is an increase of 37 over the Enchanting pattern everyone else will use.

Alchemy: clarification already mentioned by Nenaunir

Inscription: No automatic, free spell power, but you do get Master's Inscription of the Crag and Master's Inscription of the Storm to choose from to give you +61 Spell Power which is an increase of 37 spell power over [iTEM]Greater Inscription of the Crag[/iTEM] and [iTEM][Greater Inscription of the Storm][/iTEM].

Jewelcrafting: Your description is a bit lacking. There are more gems that are usable besides the spell power gem. This unlocks [iTEM]Runed Dragon's Eye[/iTEM], [iTEM]Rigid Dragon's Eye[/iTEM], [iTEM]Quick Dragon's Eye[/iTEM] and [iTEM]Smooth Dragon's Eye[/iTEM]which is an upgrade of 13 spell power, 11 hit, 9 haste and 9 crit over [iTEM]Runed Scarlet Ruby[/iTEM], [iTEM]Rigid Autumn's Glow[/iTEM], [iTEM]Quick Autumn's Glow[/iTEM] and [iTEM]Smooth Autumn's Glow[/iTEM]. you did mention that [iTEM]Dragon's Eye[/iTEM] is prismatic which definitely gives you more freedom when socketing gear.

I'm really confused as to where you got the +39/27 spell power on JC from. If I missed something obvious, then by all means flame me.

Min-maxing should always leave JC on top, no question there.

The second profession seems to be up for grabs. The difference of one point of spell power is so completely negligible, I can't agree that any profession is more viable than the other in terms of spell power gained. In this case, we have to look at other benefits. Leatherworking gives you access to gear you can wear to gear-up and Inscription provides off-hand items to use. I can't see Blacksmithing as a good profession on a class that cannot use any other pattern made simply to get two sockets.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ashaera'a summary is fine, showing the net benefit of each profession for having it at sufficent level and spending the resources needed to get the personal perks of each. For instance three Runed Dragon's Eyes each 13 SP better than the vanilla gem net 39 SP.

Fundamentally all the listed professions offer roughly the same amount of min maxed character power now. Since this isn't accidental I doubt we'll see epic mined gems again since the professions are close to balanced now and introducing them would mean adjustments to every other profession to maintain balance between them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dare make the assumption that Epic gems will come eventually - Main reason is that they have allready been datamined, which is why I added BS+JC numbers for when they actually do arrive.

In many ways I could have explained alot more than I choose to do, but initial idea was a very easy to read guide for the player unfamiliar with moonkins - I didnt mention the other JC gems on purpose, as in any realistic raid gear setting you are better off with using the spellpower gem. Perhaps in early pre-raid setups the hit rating one could be useful, but people have brains & can figure that out after me telling em that they should have JC if they want to min-max.

If Epic gems comes then you have BS if you want to min-max. Blizzard went on to make profession crafted items boe anyway so your argument is weak at best (& not mentioning that BS has a mace which is like the only craftable item thats remotely interesting for owls).

Thank you for the added info, allthough I dont believe that it belongs in the initial post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Unity, I completely forgot about the 3-gem rule for WotLK.

The JC + BS with epic gem argument seems moot to me. The benefit of JC is the [iTEM]Dragon's Eye[/iTEM] and the benefit of BS is Socket Bracer and Socket Gloves. If you are already using the BoP epic gems, then you don't receive a net benefit of upgrading the other gems in your gear with respect to everyone else.

Current JC-only

5 gem slots, 3 with [iTEM]Runed Dragon's Eye[/iTEM], 2 with [iTEM]Runed Scarlet Ruby[/iTEM] = 134 SP

Current JC+BS

7 gem slots, 3 with [iTEM]Runed Dragon's Eye[/iTEM], 4 with [iTEM]Runed Scarlet Ruby[/iTEM] = 172 SP

Future JC-only

5 gem slots, 3 with [iTEM]Runed Dragon's Eye[/iTEM], 2 with [Runed epic gem +23 SP] = 142 SP

Future JC+BS

7 gem slots, 3 with [iTEM]Runed Dragon's Eye[/iTEM], 4 with [Runed epic gem +23 SP] = 188 SP

Both cases yield +8 SP which is independent of any profession choice, so I don't see why you argue that JC + BS is superior to the other professions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Due to how blacksmithing gives it's profession bonus, it will always be best. Alchemy/Leatherworking/Inscription are all fixed to exactly one bonus: spellpower. Blacksmithing allows addition of whatever gems are required, whether it is hit gems, spellpower gems, or whatever. Jewelcrafting combined with this will always allow the best combination, due to Jewelcrafting having the same choice over what stat to provide. Jewelcrafting also allows some ~15 spellpower or so more than any other profession by being able to get socket bonuses (e.g. [item]Wyrmrest Necklace of Power[/item]).

Blacksmithing also allows use of 2 gems in all situations - combine this with the belt buckle and you will always have the 3 sockets to put JC gems in, regardless of if your gear has sockets in it or not. Although this isn't likely an issue towards the high end, it can be an issue in entry-level gear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I hadn't seen any conclusive evidence as to whether or not Insect Swarm was really scaling well enough to be worth the GCD use. I haven't been able to find the math that conclusively states that keeping Insect Swarm up actually yields more DPS than using the GCD's on Starfire / Wrath as needed (even with glyph and 2pc T7). Is it really the case that keeping Insect Swarm does outweigh the simpler rotation?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So, I hadn't seen any conclusive evidence as to whether or not Insect Swarm was really scaling well enough to be worth the GCD use. I haven't been able to find the math that conclusively states that keeping Insect Swarm up actually yields more DPS than using the GCD's on Starfire / Wrath as needed (even with glyph and 2pc T7). Is it really the case that keeping Insect Swarm does outweigh the simpler rotation?

No talents/glyphs/idol/crit

IS: 1290 + 76%, 1 GCD

SF: 1120 + 100%, 2 GCD

For IS, add Splendor (7/6) and Glyph (130%)

1956.5 + 115%, 1 GCD

For SF, add Moonfury (10%), Vengeance+CSD (109% extra damage on crit), WoC (20% spellpower), 50% crit

1903 + 204%, 2 GCD = (952 + 102%) / GCD

if cast with NG, you are down to 5/3 GCD = (1142 + 122%) / GCD. This is scaling better than IS (7% SP/GCD), but that won't make up the IS lead in base damage until your SP is past 5000.

Bump crit to 80% (Eclipse) and a NG'd SF goes to (1384 + 148%) / GCD, and the NG'd SF is a win before 2000 SP.

All this assumes your total haste is less than 50%, you have zero delay on spell casts (delay favors SF), no danger of pushback/interrupt, no t7, no IIS+future Wrath cast, no idol, ... .

At low caster-lag, glyphed IS should be a better use of your time, except during Bloodlust and Eclipse.

The talented, but no-NG, no-IIS, no-Eclipse number for Wrath (at 50% crit) is (999 + 114%)/GCD. The NG'd value depends strongly on your haste (how many normal GCD's is 1s?).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IS is better, but I do not believe it is worth 100% uptime at this point.

Most people have it glyphed and throw it up while wrath spamming for the 3% extra damage and the DoT, but once eclipse procs and while eclipse is on the iCD stick to MF/SF.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eilt -> Then most people are doing it wrong. Usually a good cycle would involve refreshing IS just after eclipse runs out (depending on MF state) -> this leads to IS running out just about when eclipse hidden cd runs out & you can reapply.

For numbers with fairly high spellpower (im atleast above 2800 in raids) - Numbers taken from my last Patchwerk, so starfire numbers arent as accurate as they could be due to a small sample size.

Insect Swarm average tick = 940 -- 1 cast is 7*940 = 6580 (glyphed+2x t7).

My average Starfire hit = 6019 / Crit = 12782.

So 2x IS > 1x Starfire crit. If you assume 100% crit then Starfire is slightly better due to NG reducing cast time below 2x gcd, but at any realistic crit rate you are better off making the most of IS - Im not refreshing IS during Eclipse, allthough that might not even be right for low crit rates.

Trismegistus - I still dont understand what you are arguing over.

I just posted the net benifit from professions (With spellpower gain being relative to what not having any profession gain would give you).

Your example is plain wrong & here is why.

- Your BS-example gains 8 more spellpower due to the profession granting the 2 sockets(gems) which provide 4spellpower each once they go epic, a non blacksmith will not gain this.

- Your JC-example gains 8 more spellpower due to non-profession gems becomming epic, a non JC will also gain this.

Example:

3gem slots = 96spellpower for the player with jc.

3gem slots = 57spellpower for the player using +19spellpower gems.

3gem slots = 69spellpower for the player using +23spellpower gems.

2gem slots gained from BS = 38spellpower with +19spellpower gems.

2gem slots gained from BS = 46spellpower with +23spellpower gems.

The value of JC does decline, while the value of BS goes up. Im pretty confident that the JC gems prismatic status will keep JC worthwhile, but BS does no doubt become 1 of the best 2 professions once epic gems arrive. The difference is not huge, but either you want to min-max or you dont.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.