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Enthorn

Optimal Sets / Item Discussion

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hmm, some weird things going on in that list.

First off I never heard of anybody enchanting a blue gem with a bracer enchant, but lets say you mean [iTEM]unsullied cuffs[/iTEM] instead. Even then you are putting a runed dragon's eye in a red gem slot, when you have several orange gems. That can't be right (if it was, every red gemslot should have haste/dmg gems).

Also

Innervate and Mana Tide Totem are set to 0. They are irrelevent unless you increase the duration of the fight.

I can't agree with this statement. The headpiece and ring choice show arcane is struggling for mana. I am curious what happens if you add a mana tide, will it go for the ffb setup minus 3% hit then?

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Thanks for all work all.

Both for the sake of completion and to show the differences is anyone working on this for a frost mage (18/0/53)? If not I'll see what I can come up with. Yes, I know it's a good 1k DPS behind the others.

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Indeed you are right the complete line was messed up.

It should be Unsullied Cuffs with a Runed Scarlet Ruby, the 3 Runed Dragon Eye's are used in the Head, Necklace and the Cloak.

I only like to add Buffs where i can be sure to have this. An Innervate in our Setup always goes to Heal Priests, and a Mana Tide can be messed up because of range Problems.

Just think about the Head Piece and the Ring in terms of a lesser uptime of Evocation, that ends in higher DPS.

Even when i adjust RAWR to infinite Mana this 2 Pieces are best in Slot for this Spec, because Spell Power and Haste are scaling so well with Arcane.

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I can't agree with this statement. The headpiece and ring choice show arcane is struggling for mana. I am curious what happens if you add a mana tide, will it go for the ffb setup minus 3% hit then?

As far as my own comment about innervate and mana tide in Fireball and Frostfire builds, they are indeed irrelevent in that with a duration of 300 or less, your DPS is unaffected by them because you won't run out of mana to need them. Whether Hibbo knowingly left my comment in his post concerning Arcane, I don't know.

I've never received an innervate in 25-man, nor have I needed one, but I've never played Arcane either. Mana Tides I don't include because in a 25-man, I'm usually seeing groups of 2 resto shamans, 2 holy paladins, and a holy priest, thus I making the mana tide not optional. But then, I've never needed one in practical settings.

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It's likely he left all four checked as a matter of convenience (read: one less thing to go wrong during spec comparisons). 18/53/0 will never cast FFB, and 0/53/18 will never cast FB, so leaving all four checked would have no impact on the DPS results.

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In the OP you have FOUR major glyphs listed. Shouldn't there only be three?

I think it's implied that you use the Frostfire glyph with the FFB gearset and the Fireball glyph with the FB gearset.

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I wasn't sure if this was the proper thread to post under, but it involves Rawr and gearing myself optimally, so I figured why not.

Is it possible for fireball spec to outdps frostfire spec right now (pre-3.0.8)? I ran a few numbers on my current gear, and if I switch out the Azure Cloth Bindings for Preceptor's Bindings, and change a few gems over to +hit (all other variables remain the same), fireball spec WILL outdps frostfire spec.

Does Rawr assume the boss is snared? The DPS difference is about 100dps in favor of fireball.

Edit: nvm, I think I figured it out. If I drop Torment the Weak in the fireball build to simulate having no snare on a boss, the builds are about even (fireball falls about 30dps behind frostfire).

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I wasn't sure if this was the proper thread to post under, but it involves Rawr and gearing myself optimally, so I figured why not.

Is it possible for fireball spec to outdps frostfire spec right now (pre-3.0.8)? I ran a few numbers on my current gear, and if I switch out the Azure Cloth Bindings for Preceptor's Bindings, and change a few gems over to +hit (all other variables remain the same), fireball spec WILL outdps frostfire spec.

Does Rawr assume the boss is snared? The DPS difference is about 100dps in favor of fireball.

How about posting a link to the rawr xml file of this?

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How reliable is rawr's optimizer? I've seen non-reproducible results from it in the past. Have you hand-checked this set as well and compared it to other possibilities, such as:

Breaking 4 pc or not/which offpiece(s) are optimal

Gown of the Spell-Weaver and possible benefits of excess hit/gear juggling

Leash of Heedless Magic vs Cincture of Polarity

Unsullied Cuffs vs Bindings of the Expansive Mind

As far as the last two go, I can typically get a draenei (sp?) in my group. Rawr seems to lean towards equipping the leash and the bindings. It's always had my non-tier piece as gothik's cowl.

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Just a word of caution. I wouldn't recommend using 2.1.6 build to make any final decisions on arcane as it has some bugs in arcane cycles and doesn't include the optimal cycles and updated AB base damage. Either wait for next release or use the dev build.

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I have found another gear combination for 18/53/0 spec which gives me 6219 dps with the current buff & fight setup. You can find the xml file through the link. I double checked everything and could not find any mistakes.

Here you can find the xml file compressed.

I've loaded your XML file -- I get 6026.34 DPS:

5875.95 - latency is set at 0.05, which is impractical for the majority of players. I keep it at 0.1.

5932.40 - 2/2 Magic Absorption and Dragon's Breath instead of 3/3 World in Flames

5864.57 - Maintain Scorch isn't enabled.

5926.87 - fight duration set to 420 seconds (7 minutes) instead of 300 (5 minutes).

5744.65 - Unlimited Mana is enabled

5774.08 - Restorative Totems is not enabled

5786.53 - Focus Magic rate is at 0.21. I recommend 0.324 (based on 60.34% Fireball crit rate).

5789.10 - Fel Intelligence instead of Divine Spirit.

Next, the gear...

5743.35 - Swap Embrace for Dying Curse.

5812.54 - 40 Hit food for 46 Spell Power food.

5839.49 - Cincture of Polarity for Leash of Heedless Magic.

5657.52 - [iTEM]44005[/iTEM]: [iTEM]40026[/iTEM] for [iTEM]39998[/iTEM]

5842.83 - [iTEM]Heigan's Putrid Vestments[/iTEM]: [iTEM]39998[/iTEM], [iTEM]39998[/iTEM] for [iTEM]40025[/iTEM], [iTEM]40051[/iTEM]

Now, the DPS is going to be lower, because you're missing 64 spell power from [iTEM]42144[/iTEM]. You lose 23 on the necklace and chest (32-9), and 18 on the cloak (32-19+5). However, for some reason, it says you're going to run out of mana even though you have, as far as I can tell, identical stats now.

Okay, you had 'Drinking Time' under Options -> Fight set to 0. What happens then is that you start the fight with 0 mana, and if you enable reconstruction, you'll see that it says you will run out of mana right off the bat. It then uses a mana gem and evocates immediately, followed by a mana potion. Setting this to the default 300 increases DPS to 6072.51, which is exactly what my own set is at.

These are the kinds of things you need to be careful of in Rawr.

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After reading your post Enthorn, i thought "can't be". However, apparently after double checking all settings I made a mistake and compressed another file and uploaded it. Duh.. Besides that i skipped the latency setup as well.

I uploaded the correct file after making latency 0,1. You see with my setup the dps decreases to 6072,11 almost same with what you have with several gear pieces different. BUT i kept drinking time "0".

If you type 300 for drinking time, then i see the new dps value as: 6204,80

I hope u can check again. Thanks in advance.

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Why would you want drinking time set to 0 is beyond me. This setting is only meaningful if you want to simulate trash pulls with chain pulling.

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You see with my setup the dps decreases to 6072,11 almost same with what you have with several gear pieces different. BUT i kept drinking time "0".

If you type 300 for drinking time, then i see the new dps value as: 6204,80

I hope u can check again. Thanks in advance.

I've downloaded this file and opening it shows DPS at 5876.77. If I change drinking time to 300, DPS is at 5997.98. Again, just as Kavan said, I don't know why you have drinking time set to 0. It's starting you at 0 mana for the fight. That can't possibly make any sense to you.

Even so, 5997.98 DPS (version 2.1.6) is still less than the 6072.51 I've posted. You still have some problems in your set though. First, you have too much hit. It's a small DPS increase to switch the veiled to a reckless in the robes. Next, there's no reason to use the Runed Dragon's Eye in your gloves. It's another DPS increase to switch the Dragon's Eye to a Runed Scarlet Ruby, and replace the Reckless gem in your robes with the Dragon's Eye. We're now at 6003.87.

Next we'll switch out the Rigid Dragon's Eye, a loss of 54 hit, and replace them with Runed, for a gain of 64 spell damage. This drops DPS considerably (5977.91).

To make up for this, we're dropping the Unsullied Cuffs for Bindings of the Expansive Mind (-42 useless spirit, -34 haste, -18 spell power, +43 crit, +28 hit). This puts our DPS at 6020.40. We're still 52.11 behind though. You have two stats holding you back: spirit on your helm and spirit on your chestpiece. One of these has to go. Replacing your robes with Heigan's Putrid Vestments (Runed Dragon's Eye and Reckless gem) puts DPS at 6021.66. It's a small DPS upgrade because we've lost the 4-piece set bonus.

To get this back, we equip Valorous Frostfire leggings with 1 Runed and 1 Veiled. This puts us at 6041.75. Equipping Leash of Heedless Magic drops us to 5978.12, but replacing Embrace with Dying Curse puts us at 6061.47. Change the Veiled in the leggings to a Reckless and you end up at 6072.51.

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Just wanted to point out, that the "No Heroic Presence" assumption is a pretty significant one in this context. For Alliance Mages, where the Presenc is all but a given, the optimal Gearset is different and yields obviously higher DPS.

If the intend of this thread is to discuss the Horde-Mage Gear Setup, consider this as a reminder not to spend much of your DKP on Dying Curse if you're Alliance, just as an example:)

You can find those xmls here

http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t30655-wotlk_mage_talent_ability_guide_3_0_8_part_two/p174/#post1044501

The settings are not identical, just adjust them to compare, the resullts are higher DPS and, more important, a different Gear-Choice.

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After some troubleshooting, I was able to mirror your results with a difference of ~2 dps (5669.38). I found out that using the optimizer with low thoroughness gave strange varying results; obviously because it only considers direct upgrades and not the possible EP values of all gear sets.

It seems that Alliance mages with Heroic Presence just switch out [iTEM]Bindings of the Expansive Mind[/iTEM] for [iTEM]Unsullied Cuffs[/iTEM] with an increase in dps from 5669.38 to 5685.06 according to my results.

Sounds like a pretty decent comparision right here, and fire/arc mages still want dying curse (tbh every mage should have one just in case)

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I've downloaded this file and opening it shows DPS at 5876.77. If I change drinking time to 300, DPS is at 5997.98.

How can that be? i open the file and i directly see 6072,11 DPS without Drinking Time.

Why i turn off Drinking Time? Because I don't understand why should the simulation begin with 0 mana. But anyways, if I make it 300, then i get 6204 dps.

how can it be that we see different values?

PS: i have the same version of rawr.

edit1: I just downloaded the new version of rawr and loaded the same file. However the new Rawr begins with 5968,64 DPS without drinking time. Of course, i updated drinking time to 300 and new dps is: 6091,77 which is different value than u see when u load the file i sent. I still wonder why do we see different results with the same file on different Rawr versions or with same rawr versions on different computers.

edit2: here is the new xml file which i opened and saved with new version of rawr.

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Okay, I downloaded new version of Rawr as well. DPS on my file when I open it is 6072.51 (did you remember to change Illustration of the Dragon Soul to 200 spell power?). When I open your file, I see 6092.67.

However, this is with Illustration at 260 spell power. Change it to 200 and we drop to 5998.85.

When I make the exact changes that I listed in my post above, I end up at 6072.51.

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Just wanted to point out, that the "No Heroic Presence" assumption is a pretty significant one in this context. For Alliance Mages, where the Presenc is all but a given, the optimal Gearset is different and yields obviously higher DPS.

If the intend of this thread is to discuss the Horde-Mage Gear Setup, consider this as a reminder not to spend much of your DKP on Dying Curse if you're Alliance, just as an example:)

You can find those xmls here

http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t30655-wotlk_mage_talent_ability_guide_3_0_8_part_two/p174/#post1044501

The settings are not identical, just adjust them to compare, the resullts are higher DPS and, more important, a different Gear-Choice.

As you are quoting my post, I reviewed my choices once again and tried them in Rawr 2.1.7 with the same settings as before. The new results suggest, that even as an alliance mage with Heroic Presence, Dying Curse, Unsullied Cuffs and Leash of Heedless Magic are the better choices. My old setup with Embrace of the Spider, Bindings of Expansive Mind and Cincture of Polarity yields 23 dps less.

P.S.: You obviously have to switch out some gems too. I will upload my new xmls.

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Hibbo,

You have to have spirit, those pieces are severely lacking in spirit. That gear is not sustainable at all.

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did you remember to change Illustration of the Dragon Soul to 200 spell power?

Nope, that was my problem. :)

thanks a lot for checking the files.

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I would like to contribute a draft for the arcane version of this topic:

Rawr version: 2.1.8

Race: Human (No Berserking or Expansive Mind)

Latency: 0.1

Enabled: Heroism/Bloodlust, Potion of Wild Magic, Potion of Speed, Flame Cap (no snare, no scorch)

Combo Reliability (0-1): 1 (probably possible with some training)

Heroism Control: Optimal

Innervate and Mana Tide Totem are set to 0.

Enabled: Average Cooldowns, Evocation, Mana Potion, Mana Gem

Snared Time: 1

Focus Magic Rate: 0,324 (based on a Fireball crit rate of 60.34% before Focus Magic - not sure if we change this as arcane mages)

Duration: 300

Enabled: Incremental Optimizations

Glyphs: Glyph of Molten Armor, Glyph of Arcane Power, Glyph of Arcane Blast

Buffs:

Improved Moonkin Form

Arcane Intellect

Vampiric Touch

Mana Spring Totem (Restorative Totems)

Blessing of Wisdom (Improved Blessing of Wisdom)

Elemental Oath

Focus Magic

Wrath of Air Totem

Totem of Wrath

Divine Spirit

Mark of the Wild (Improved Mark of the Wild)

Blessing of Kings (Improved Blessing of Kings)

Molten Armor

Heroic Presence

Judgement of Wisdom

Improved Scorch

Earth and Moon

Misery

Flask of the Frost Wyrm

Spell Power Food (Firecracker Salmon, Tender Shoveltusk Steak)

Professions: Enchanting, Jewelcrafting

Spec: 57/3/11 Arcane

Spell Stats

Crit Rate: 350 - 51,92%

Hit Rate: 195 - 14,43%

Haste: 645 (/32,789 = 19,67%)

Casting Speed: 1,373

Spell Power: 3048,2

DPS: 6790,17

Damage breakdown:

Arcane Blast: 49,34%

Arcane Missiles: 34,13%

Arcane Barrage: 16,53%

Crit rates:

Arcane Blast: 57,92%

Arcane Missiles, Arcane Barrage: 51,92%

Set Bonus DPS:

2-piece: 97,38

4-piece: 69,34

Consumables/Cooldowns:

Mana Gem, Icy Veins, Bloodlust/Heroism, Potion of Speed, Evocation, Arcane Power, Mirror Image (Not modeled in Rawr), Presence of Mind (also not modeled in Rawr?)

[iTEM]40416[/iTEM]: [iTEM]41285[/iTEM], [iTEM]39998[/iTEM], [iTEM]44159[/iTEM]

[iTEM]44661[/iTEM]: [iTEM]42144[/iTEM]

[iTEM]40419[/iTEM]: [iTEM]40051[/iTEM], [iTEM]44135[/iTEM]

[iTEM]44005[/iTEM]: [iTEM]42144[/iTEM], Greater Speed

[iTEM]44002[/iTEM]: [iTEM]39998[/iTEM], [iTEM]42144[/iTEM], Powerful Stats

[iTEM]44008[/iTEM]: [iTEM]39998[/iTEM], Superior Spellpower

[iTEM]40415[/iTEM]: [iTEM]39998[/iTEM], Exceptional Spellpower

[iTEM]40561[/iTEM]: [iTEM]39998[/iTEM], [iTEM]41611[/iTEM]

[iTEM]40417[/iTEM]: [iTEM]39998[/iTEM], [iTEM]40051[/iTEM], [iTEM]41602[/iTEM]

[iTEM]40246[/iTEM]: Icewalker

[iTEM]40399[/iTEM], [iTEM]40719[/iTEM]: Greater Spellpower

[iTEM]39229[/iTEM], [iTEM]40432[/iTEM] (200 SP)

[iTEM]40396[/iTEM]: Mighty Spellpower

[iTEM]40273[/iTEM], [iTEM]40245[/iTEM] ([iTEM]39712[/iTEM] is better if there is no mana issue or you are horde)

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