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Levva

[Enhancement] Rawr.Enhance thread

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I think we have settled on a compromise. The default will be to show raw values with a tick box option on the model to show AEP values.

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Good compromise. Coming from the Mage model to look at upgrades for my Shaman, I would expect DPS values instead of AEP values. I imagine it's the same for most Rawr users.

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New Rawr beta release available V2.20b5 - this includes the 3.1 talent trees and a feature I wrote to download possible item upgrades from Wowhead.com's ptr site.

Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.2.0b5

Please test out the Enhancement Shaman model and let me know of any issues.

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Plain melee dps calcs.

I am thinking that there is a factor missing in the melee dps calcs but not entirely sure I've got the right idea. The current code is :

float APDPS = attackPower / 14f;

float adjustedMHDPS = wdpsMH + APDPS;

float adjustedOHDPS = (wdpsOH + APDPS) * .5f;

float dpsMHMeleeCrits = adjustedMHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

float dpsMHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;

float dpsOHMeleeCrits = adjustedOHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

float dpsOHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;

float dpsMelee = (adjustedMHDPS + dpsMHMeleeCrits + dpsMHMeleeGlances + adjustedOHDPS + dpsOHMeleeCrits + dpsOHMeleeGlances)

* weaponMastery * (1 - damageReduction) * (1 - chanceWhiteMiss) * (1 + bonusPhysicalDamage);

Where dpsMelee is the total melee dps. The thing that strikes me is that wdpsMH & wdpsOH are just the dps values from the tooltip of the weapons. I fear that the effects of haste seems to be entirely missing from this calculation. However on adding it in it seems to vastly over estimate the melee dps.

Perhaps I'm just tired today but I'm sure I'm missing something really obvious.

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Plain melee dps calcs.

I am thinking that there is a factor missing in the melee dps calcs but not entirely sure I've got the right idea. The current code is :

float APDPS = attackPower / 14f;

float adjustedMHDPS = wdpsMH + APDPS;

float adjustedOHDPS = (wdpsOH + APDPS) * .5f;

float dpsMHMeleeCrits = adjustedMHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

float dpsMHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;

float dpsOHMeleeCrits = adjustedOHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

float dpsOHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;

float dpsMelee = (adjustedMHDPS + dpsMHMeleeCrits + dpsMHMeleeGlances + adjustedOHDPS + dpsOHMeleeCrits + dpsOHMeleeGlances)

* weaponMastery * (1 - damageReduction) * (1 - chanceWhiteMiss) * (1 + bonusPhysicalDamage);

Where dpsMelee is the total melee dps. The thing that strikes me is that wdpsMH & wdpsOH are just the dps values from the tooltip of the weapons. I fear that the effects of haste seems to be entirely missing from this calculation. However on adding it in it seems to vastly over estimate the melee dps.

Perhaps I'm just tired today but I'm sure I'm missing something really obvious.

I think you need to reduce the adjustedMHDPS and adjustedOHDPS by the amount which is put to crits and glances.

float adjustedMHDPS = adjustedMHDPS * (1 - chanceWhiteCrit - glancingRate);

And the haste you mentioned needs to be added to the final calculation.

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Many thanks, I knew I needed the haste in there somewhere. However when I was trying, it just was massively screwing the dps calcs. I'd not noticed of course that I'd effectively double counted the MHDPS/OHDPS figures. I've modified the code as follows to separate out normal from crits & glances.

            float APDPS = attackPower / 14f;

            float adjustedMHDPS = (wdpsMH + APDPS);

            float adjustedOHDPS = (wdpsOH + APDPS) * .5f;


            float dpsMHMeleeNormal = adjustedMHDPS * (1 - chanceWhiteCrit - glancingRate);

            float dpsMHMeleeCrits = adjustedMHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

            float dpsMHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;


            float dpsOHMeleeNormal = adjustedOHDPS * (1 - chanceWhiteCrit - glancingRate);

            float dpsOHMeleeCrits = adjustedOHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

            float dpsOHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;


            float meleeMultipliers = weaponMastery * (1 - damageReduction) * (1 - chanceWhiteMiss) * (1 + bonusPhysicalDamage);


            float dpsMelee = ((dpsMHMeleeNormal + dpsMHMeleeCrits + dpsMHMeleeGlances) * hastedMHSpeed / unhastedMHSpeed +

                              (dpsOHMeleeNormal + dpsOHMeleeCrits + dpsOHMeleeGlances) * hastedOHSpeed / unhastedOHSpeed) * meleeMultipliers;

BTW have you an idea of timescale for a 3.1 EnhSim? The Rawr model has the haste, expertise (UR), flametongue & Armour Pen changes, along with the Feral Spirit glyph so its harder to check my model is working properly when I can't test it against your more accurate sim.

Oh and did you see the suggestion for allowing EnhSimGUI to import config from clipboard? This would allow direct import of Rawr.Enhance & ShockAndAwe exports and thus make the whole process a lot quicker for the end user. This is mainly due to removing the need for them to have to cut n' paste in a text editor. So the end result would be a lot more user friendly.

If you are happy to implement that and you need me to make specific tags on the import to verify clipboard contains valid data just let me know and I can standardise the header across both modules.

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Many thanks, I knew I needed the haste in there somewhere. However when I was trying, it just was massively screwing the dps calcs. I'd not noticed of course that I'd effectively double counted the MHDPS/OHDPS figures. I've modified the code as follows to separate out normal from crits & glances.

            float APDPS = attackPower / 14f;

            float adjustedMHDPS = (wdpsMH + APDPS);

            float adjustedOHDPS = (wdpsOH + APDPS) * .5f;


            float dpsMHMeleeNormal = adjustedMHDPS * (1 - chanceWhiteCrit - glancingRate);

            float dpsMHMeleeCrits = adjustedMHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

            float dpsMHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;


            float dpsOHMeleeNormal = adjustedOHDPS * (1 - chanceWhiteCrit - glancingRate);

            float dpsOHMeleeCrits = adjustedOHDPS * chanceWhiteCrit * critMultiplierMelee;

            float dpsOHMeleeGlances = adjustedMHDPS * glancingRate * .35f;


            float meleeMultipliers = weaponMastery * (1 - damageReduction) * (1 - chanceWhiteMiss) * (1 + bonusPhysicalDamage);


            float dpsMelee = ((dpsMHMeleeNormal + dpsMHMeleeCrits + dpsMHMeleeGlances) * hastedMHSpeed / unhastedMHSpeed +

                              (dpsOHMeleeNormal + dpsOHMeleeCrits + dpsOHMeleeGlances) * hastedOHSpeed / unhastedOHSpeed) * meleeMultipliers;

BTW have you an idea of timescale for a 3.1 EnhSim? The Rawr model has the haste, expertise (UR), flametongue & Armour Pen changes, along with the Feral Spirit glyph so its harder to check my model is working properly when I can't test it against your more accurate sim.

Oh and did you see the suggestion for allowing EnhSimGUI to import config from clipboard? This would allow direct import of Rawr.Enhance & ShockAndAwe exports and thus make the whole process a lot quicker for the end user. This is mainly due to removing the need for them to have to cut n' paste in a text editor. So the end result would be a lot more user friendly.

If you are happy to implement that and you need me to make specific tags on the import to verify clipboard contains valid data just let me know and I can standardise the header across both modules.

You have haste calculation the wrong way. Should be unhastedMHSpeed / hastedMHSpeed.

I changed haste(30%) and armorpen(25%), are they correct? What about expertise, I read somewhere you would get more expertise too?

I implemented that copy from clipboard functionality. Just use the same format as with config files. EnhSimGui checks does the text start with "race" and is the character after "race" whitespace character. I also did the item ID thingy.

Have you thought about doing the whole GUI with Rawr? I guess you can't get the EnhSimGUI implemented in the official Rawr, but Rawr is open source right?

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The 30% to haste is only to melee so that boost won't affect the GCDs of spells (haste never affects GCDs of melee attacks anyway) or casting times with say MW4 active.

Expertise being boosted was a bug. We just have the additional expertise from the new version of Unleashed Rage.

Armor Penetration Rating is 25% more effective.

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You have haste calculation the wrong way. Should be unhastedMHSpeed / hastedMHSpeed.

I changed haste(30%) and armorpen(25%), are they correct? What about expertise, I read somewhere you would get more expertise too?

I implemented that copy from clipboard functionality. Just use the same format as with config files. EnhSimGui checks does the text start with "race" and is the character after "race" whitespace character. I also did the item ID thingy.

Have you thought about doing the whole GUI with Rawr? I guess you can't get the EnhSimGUI implemented in the official Rawr, but Rawr is open source right?

Haste is +30% effect of haste rating, armorpen +25% of armorpen rating, expertise is only 3/6/9 from Unleashed Rage, the other effect was a bug, with UR being 4/7/10%.

Other changes flurry is 5/10/15/20/25% down from 10/15/20/25/30% haste, the two new set bonuses ofc, Stormstrike is now 8 sec base and 4 charges, Imp.SS is reworked to return mana and has no affect on CD or charges anymore. Glyph of Feral Spirirt gives spirits +30% of your AP as a bonus.

The sticky at MMO has the full list so you can check everything off it as you implement it. *3.1 PTR Shaman Patch Notes (Updated 3/19/09)*

On the clipboard copy : both exports have a 4 line comment header lots of *'s with 4th line always blank 5th line starts race. I'll verify its exactly the 5th line in both cases and amend if not.

The whole GUI in Rawr is probably tricky for a number of reasons but the biggest one I think is that we would have no control over when a new version was released. I suspect it's better to deal with exporting as much as possible that's basic to Rawr and the EnhSim specific stuff stay in EnhSimGUI.

The other issue is that the project has limited authors with svn access and I'm not sure exactly what the licencing terms are, its a colabarative effort but I feel morally it would be wrong to try to hijak the project. Personally I feel it would be better that people who only want to use the sim can and don't have to use Rawr. People who like to use Rawr for its excellent kit exchange features can use a copy to/from clipboard model and run the sim in an app totally under your control.

One issue I did want to raise is buffs. People have asked if Rawr could export the buffs ticked. This would be a simple matter to export extra lines to the clipboard config data. If you would be happy to have buffs specified in the clipboard config I can add them. Would putting them at the end be acceptable? ie: anything after talents that Rawr exported would just replace anything in the current config? Or would you prefer we agree a specific ordering. If the latter simply tell me what works simplest for you and I can implement that.

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Haste is +30% effect of haste rating, armorpen +25% of armorpen rating, expertise is only 3/6/9 from Unleashed Rage, the other effect was a bug, with UR being 4/7/10%.

Other changes flurry is 5/10/15/20/25% down from 10/15/20/25/30% haste, the two new set bonuses ofc, Stormstrike is now 8 sec base and 4 charges, Imp.SS is reworked to return mana and has no affect on CD or charges anymore. Glyph of Feral Spirirt gives spirits +30% of your AP as a bonus.

The sticky at MMO has the full list so you can check everything off it as you implement it. *3.1 PTR Shaman Patch Notes (Updated 3/19/09)*

On the clipboard copy : both exports have a 4 line comment header lots of *'s with 4th line always blank 5th line starts race. I'll verify its exactly the 5th line in both cases and amend if not.

The whole GUI in Rawr is probably tricky for a number of reasons but the biggest one I think is that we would have no control over when a new version was released. I suspect it's better to deal with exporting as much as possible that's basic to Rawr and the EnhSim specific stuff stay in EnhSimGUI.

The other issue is that the project has limited authors with svn access and I'm not sure exactly what the licencing terms are, its a colabarative effort but I feel morally it would be wrong to try to hijak the project. Personally I feel it would be better that people who only want to use the sim can and don't have to use Rawr. People who like to use Rawr for its excellent kit exchange features can use a copy to/from clipboard model and run the sim in an app totally under your control.

One issue I did want to raise is buffs. People have asked if Rawr could export the buffs ticked. This would be a simple matter to export extra lines to the clipboard config data. If you would be happy to have buffs specified in the clipboard config I can add them. Would putting them at the end be acceptable? ie: anything after talents that Rawr exported would just replace anything in the current config? Or would you prefer we agree a specific ordering. If the latter simply tell me what works simplest for you and I can implement that.

Alright, clipboard import will read config file format, I won't add any specific checks. I made some error checking, so Gui shouldn't be so easy to crash when bad data is inputted. I'll add that buff import too, the order of options doesn't matter for the import (or config files). New config options in the next version are "melee_haste", "spell_haste", "set_bonus1", "set_bonus2" and "set_bonus3". The old "haste" will be removed.

About Rawr, I meant you would take the Rawr source, add EnhSimGui functionality, possibly strip it out of unnecessary stuff and build/release it on your own. Rawr is licensed under Apache license, so you are definately allowed to do that. IMO, if reusing the code is a problem or creates some hard feelings, it shouldn't be licensed as open source.

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Alright, clipboard import will read config file format, I won't add any specific checks. I made some error checking, so Gui shouldn't be so easy to crash when bad data is inputted. I'll add that buff import too, the order of options doesn't matter for the import (or config files). New config options in the next version are "melee_haste", "spell_haste", "set_bonus1", "set_bonus2" and "set_bonus3". The old "haste" will be removed.

About Rawr, I meant you would take the Rawr source, add EnhSimGui functionality, possibly strip it out of unnecessary stuff and build/release it on your own. Rawr is licensed under Apache license, so you are definately allowed to do that. IMO, if reusing the code is a problem or creates some hard feelings, it shouldn't be licensed as open source.

Yeah I knew what you meant about Rawr and the licensing. To my mind however that would lose one of the major bonuses of Rawr. At present there are lots of people working on it adding new features to the base code and improving on it. For example the complete revamping of the gemming system in v2.2. If you split off the codebase to add EnhSimGUI support, and end up maintaining effectively a separate product, you would lose all of that extra base code development work.

If we stick with the Rawr.Enhance module exporting as much as it can via clipboard, and EnhSimGUI importing that. We can be more flexible. It means that you can remain in full control of the EnhSimGUI, it means that users that don't want to use Rawr are not forced down that route, ie: EnhSim + EnhSimGUI is still viable for users. It also means that users who really want to test out different gear can chop and change things in Rawr and get basic dps calcs which should hopefully be fairly accurate can then with a couple of clicks export and import then run the sim to get a very detailed breakdown. It also means that we retain all the new features added to the base Rawr code to make the interface better.

I really do think that having the two programs running side by side gives the best of all worlds. Fast accurate gear simulations, with minimum mucking about with config files.

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Ok I am trying out rawr v2.2.0 and when i get to the weapons listing i am having problems understanding how it gets the values it does.

Calamity's Grasp is listed as 174 dps

Masticator is listed as 437-439 dps

This infers Masticator is almost 3x's better which i dont feel is the case

Several of the items seem disproportional this way like bp and gloves

am i just missing something here?

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Yup you are missing the correction noted above where no haste was taken into account. or was inverted ie more haste = lower dps which was of course wrong.

I've done quite a bit on the module this week. A LOT more testing needs to be done though. So far as I do more thorough tests I find new things (and probably break some too). What I am trying to do is get everything working so that when EnhSim 1.6 is ready and patch 3.1 aware that I can do the export/import thing and compare stats side by side.

Until then there are bound to be some errors in the Enhance module, which only more people assisting with testing will iron out. I'm not sure if a new b6 is due on Sunday if not I'll post a new Rawr.Enhance.dll for download on the MMO Champion site.

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I would just like to chime in my support here and say that I would love to see EnhSim built into Rawr, even if just in a limited capacity.

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Using Rawr 2.2.0b5. I created my char in Rawr as it will be in 3.1 (dropping all my hit/exp gems for AP ones) and then exported to the sim. Ran the sim, and overall the results seem good - within 300DPS. (With EnhSim doing 3.0.8 it's hard to say what the correct values are) However there are a couple of points that are suspect.

Lightning Shield damage:

Rawr - 704 DPS

EnhSim - 259 DPS

The DPS for LS seems horribly high.

Flametongue

Rawr - 372 DPS

EnhSim - 530 DPS

Again the difference seems pretty high between them. (I don't have glyph of FT) Since I have a slow weapon, I would expect the 3.1 version to be higher than the 3.0.8 version.

Also in Rawr both flurry and ED uptimes seem to be about 8-9% higher then the sim. Flurry - 95% vs 86% and ED - 76% vs 68%.

Also, not sure if it is supposed to be changed or not, but exporting still exports with the buffed values. If it is hard to fix, I was wondering if it would be possible to add a button to the Buff section in Rawr which would basically remove all the selected buffs.

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Maybe I'm just confused and totally clueless about how to use Rawr, but the optimizer seems to think that because I'm hit and expertise capped, hit and expertise is not worth much, and it starts suggesting that I remove hit and expertise, which brings me down below the caps.

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Using Rawr 2.2.0b5. I created my char in Rawr as it will be in 3.1 (dropping all my hit/exp gems for AP ones) and then exported to the sim. Ran the sim, and overall the results seem good - within 300DPS. (With EnhSim doing 3.0.8 it's hard to say what the correct values are) However there are a couple of points that are suspect.

Lightning Shield damage:

Rawr - 704 DPS

EnhSim - 259 DPS

The DPS for LS seems horribly high.

Flametongue

Rawr - 372 DPS

EnhSim - 530 DPS

Again the difference seems pretty high between them. (I don't have glyph of FT) Since I have a slow weapon, I would expect the 3.1 version to be higher than the 3.0.8 version.

Also in Rawr both flurry and ED uptimes seem to be about 8-9% higher then the sim. Flurry - 95% vs 86% and ED - 76% vs 68%.

Also, not sure if it is supposed to be changed or not, but exporting still exports with the buffed values. If it is hard to fix, I was wondering if it would be possible to add a button to the Buff section in Rawr which would basically remove all the selected buffs.

Yeah should be fixed in v2.2.0b6 available at Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.2.0b6 I'd done a fair bit of work that wasn't ready when beta 5 shipped then it took a fortnight for beta 6 to ship. Most stuff should be a lot better now. I just need the EnhSim to be updated to patch 3.1 so I can compare and contrast the calcs to make sure Rawr.Enhance is accurate.

Maybe I'm just confused and totally clueless about how to use Rawr, but the optimizer seems to think that because I'm hit and expertise capped, hit and expertise is not worth much, and it starts suggesting that I remove hit and expertise, which brings me down below the caps.

Rawr works differently from other programs. Instead of working out an EP value and applying that to all items and trying to score each item, it does what you actually do in reality. It works out the dps from having your gear equipped then it swaps a piece and recalculates from scratch what the dps would be for that new setup.

So you get the total dps shown for each item ie: the charts show the dps contribution of that individual item, and not some EP value based multiplication. The result is that when hit/expertise capped the value of hit/expertise is ZERO. However it still knows that if it removes an item with hit/expertise on it then it needs to replace that lost values. As every calculation it does REMOVES an item from a slot BEFORE trying to add the new item in and calculate the score. So you are never dealing with negative EPs and strage concoctions like that. All you ever deal in is RAW dps figures.

Hope this helps.

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Release v2.2.0b6 is now available from Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.2.0b6

Changes include :

v2.2.0b6 - Added summary box at top as part of model standardisation

Fix for display of Basic Stats to exclude weapon buffs

Implement +30% haste benefit from haste rating for DK, Paladin, Druid, Shaman

Added Hit Rating to display, and some rating tooltips

Tweaks to Flametongue weapon calculated separately for MH & OH

Fixed Feral Spirit DPS only calculated for a single wolf

Apply patch 3.1 normalised damage for flametongue weapon

Fix melee dps calculation to use haste

Raw added attackpower from trinkets/totems etc wasn't removing spellpower for export to sim.

Added T8 set bonus support

Fixed EnhSim Export to use baseGearStats + raceStats instead of including bonuses.

Procced AP wasn't adding SP from Mental Quickness

Fix greatness proc error not adding bonus AP from procced str, agi, int

Fixed Meta gem +3% crit dmg was giving +3% crit chance multiplier

Added support for Flametongue on main hand

Melee & Spell crit displays enhanced and corrected - should now match armory.

Fixed crit export to EnhSim all export features should be buff neutral

Implemented EnhSim set bonus changes for Ulduar

Fix Searing Totem dps, flag SS & LL as only available if you have the talent

Added option to use Magma totem instead of Searing Totem

Fix LS spellpower co-efficient

Updated Gemming Template to better reflect best choices

General Features added

1) Export a Pawn addon string to clipboard

2) View weighted upgrades on Wowhead.com

3) View weighted upgrades on Lootrank.com

4) Added Locale support so item names can now be displayed in one of five local languages (French, German, Russian, Spanish & English)

5) Allow added items to be added from ptr.wowhead.com & fix bug if item not found in Armory.

6) Added feature to display buff sources - Now shows which class/spec provides the buff

7) Loading character from Armory now automatically applies profession buffs (Mining/Skinning) and or Racial (Draenei Heroic Presence) buffs. Profession buffs only applied if max skill.

Cool You can now download Ulduar upgrades from Wowhead to compare against your kit

New General Features added by others

1) New look start page - should make it easier to find your way around and use the application

2) New tips page - should prompt you to use features you never knew were there

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Levva, are you interested in specific feedback regarding what the Optimizer has chosen for us? I figure you can do that yourself, but I'm mostly wondering at the choices of Grim Toll and Wraith Strike which Rawr has given to me over CG and Greatness deck. Also, double accuracy enchants instead of at least one berserking. Thoughts?

Edit: also, adding Bloodlust (using default values for uptime) actually decreases my DPS from 6932 to 6863.

Edit 2: huh, re-optimized with a couple extra optioins, and now it's FoFF/MoT for trinkets, WS/AD with accuracy, and bloodlust is no longer decreasing DPS. Must have hit the haste well using the last build.

Edit 3: for some reason, many gems with haste aren't listed as providing any DPS boost at all. This becomes problematic when optimizing because it refuses to choose those gems. As an example, Stark Monarch Topaz (16ap/8haste) gives no DPS increase whatsoever. I assume this is a bug, so yep.

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Telling me that it recommend a particular item over another is of little use. What I need to know is far more like the second part where you say that haste is giving zero benefit???

First however you have missed the most important fact, the version you are using. Without knowing which version you are using your comments are useless. Saying "the latest" is also useless. I NEED the exact version number if I am to work out what is wrong.

Second the steps to reproduce the problem. This may just be load character X from armory, change gem Y for gem Z no dps change. Why?

If you can produce replicable steps like this I am likely to be able to identify the problem. If not I really struggle to guess what might be happening, espeically when I have ZERO clue if you are using the version I posted last night or one from six weeks ago.

BTW the berserking code got an overhaul and fix will be in v2.2.0-beta 7.

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in going between 2.2.0-beta 5 and 2.2.0-beta 6 gave some odd results from the optimizer in terms of gear selection.

If I went and simmed them the beta 5 suggestion gave me better potential dps than the beta 6 suggestions.

I noticed that beta 6 had a much lower spell hit in it's optimization than beta 5.

What I would do (before I noticed that the export ignored selected buffs), was select all the buffs I would actually have in my 10-man. Optimize. Turn off all those buffs and export to EnhSim. I would re-enable all those buffs in EnhSim and do a 20k hour simulation, then compare the results.

What can I provide that would best assist you in determining if there's a bug here, or just a difference in mechanics (say for example that beta 6 is looking more at 3.1 where beta 5/EnhSim was looking at 3.0) I could provide my rawr.xml files and equivalent EnhSim config files.

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If you look a couple of posts back in this thread you will see there was a massive amount of changes between beta 5 & beta 6, any one of which could be influencing your results. Both beta 5 & beta 6 were patch 3.1 only.

Also beta 6 now includes the new EnhSim haste parameters ie: melee_haste and spell_haste instead of just haste. This means if you didn't notice this and manually edit then haste would have been entirely missed from your EnhSim config. The other big factor is patch 3.0 vs patch 3.1 - EnhSim is not patch 3.1 ready yet. Until a new version is released its very very tricky to work out whether the differences in results are due to real bugs in the code or patch 3.1 changes.

So I'm kinda in limbo at present until a new EnhSim is released. When it is I'd very much welcome your feedback and config files to help identify any issues.

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ok, I'll continue to monitor differences like this and then attempt to reproduce once we have comparable 3.1 versions.

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My apologies, Levva. :) I was definitely referring to the most recent build. I'll be a little more explicit, and provide screenshots as necessary, particularly in the future.

Regarding the third edit, I'm referring specifically to the Comparisons pane. Slot: Gems > Normal. Scroll down to the bottom when sorting by DPS and if I hover over various things like Quick Autumn's Glow, Deft Monarch Topaz, and Stark Monarch Topaz, it shows no DPS gain.

After a bit more playing around with it, though, I'm discovering that this only happens at certain haste amounts, so I imagine it's (yet again) because of the windfury proc chasm thing. Adding a 16 haste gem to my current build brings haste gems back up to where they should be.

Again, my apologies for not following SOP for reporting bugs. Will definitely do so from now on.

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That sounds very interesting regarding haste dips. Can you post an XML config (ie: save file from Rawr) remembering to use

 tags and the steps to take to view the effect. I can then try to reproduce it and see why its happening. Haste shouldn't have a dip effect especially since the original model struggles a bit to mimic the 3s internal cd.

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