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fallenman

Demonic Pact and rDPS vs Personal DPS

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They finally changed something in build 9722:

Demonic Pact now scales with Spirit through Fel Armor, but only with the base 30% of it, even if specced for Demonic Aegis (should be 39%).

Glyph of Life Tap still doesn't work, though.

It finally works with fel armor.

Do you think a raid will be able to be optimal without the DP 300+ spell power for (minimum) the 6/8 dps casters and other spell users? I Would like to compare, IG, a 25m raid dps with / without...

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Just checked the official PTR forums. There are a few threads floating around about DP; none with blue responses. The most recent one, the last post has a Ele shammy saying he loses about 500 personal DPS by not dropping a fire DPS totem; I think I'd take that number with a grain of salt, but still...

Ele shammy totems:

Searing: 400 DPS

Fire Elemental: 900 DPS

If anyone really thinks that still using totem of wrath just because there's 10% downtime on demonic pact is best for raid dps- well quite frankly it's just silly. If there is a particular fight where demonic pact is going to have low uptime, then simply use ToW and use whichever dual spec you have. Using both just because demonic pact doesn't work for some fight is silly.

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Ok, So here is what I've been trying to figure out.

If you bring a warlock to raid at what point will the increase in the spellpower given to all members of the raid match dps lost from loosing the top dps caster in the raid.

That is to say if the sims are to be believed (and we have no reason or reference not to) assuming that he would be doing the 6900 dps as possible and the DP warlock would be doing 6400 thats a loss of 500 dps. At what point in increased spelldamage would we make up 500 dps across the raid assuming you have an elemental shaman allready available?

Assuming the average raid brings say 8 dps casters, if each one scales 1 dps per spelldmage than we would need to generate an addition 62.5 average spelldamage (note average not actual do to the fact that up time is not 100%) to increase the over all raid dps to the point at which we lost dps.

The average+dmg scale factor from sim craft for all casters (excluding enh shaman) is 1.45 which would yield an average of 43.1 spelldamage to increase raid dps to compensate for loosing our personal dps. In other words On top of this chart

[table]UP Time | Spell Power

90% | 3111

86.2% *| 3249

85% | 3295

80% | 3500

75% | 3734

65% | 4320

50% | 5600

[/table]

We would need to add an additional 431 spellpower to each number. This would give you:

[table]UP Time | Spell Power

90% | 3542

86.2% *| 3680

85% | 3726

80% | 3931

75% | 4165

65% | 4751

50% | 6031

[/table]

Edit

This was all done assuming 2 things one of which is a falsity and that is 1 you have an elemental shaman, and 2 is that your elemental shaman doesn't switch totems. Assuming the shaman gains 400 dps from a searing totem instead then there is a mere 100 dps difference that we may need to overcome (this is at current naxx gear levels and may change later) but as such we only need 8.6 spelldamage per person and there by must achieve a mere 86 spelldamage to over come the deficite

which yields this table:

[table]UP Time | Spell Power

90% | 3197

86.2% *| 3335

85% | 3381

80% | 3586

75% | 3820

65% | 4406

50% | 5686

[/table]

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<snip>the DP warlock would be doing 6400 thats a loss of 500 dps.

<snip>

Assuming the average raid brings say 8 dps casters

<snip>

The average+dmg scale factor from sim craft for all casters (excluding enh shaman) is 1.45 which would yield an average of 43.1

<snip>

We would need to add an additional 431 spellpower to each number

<snip>

I am apparently failing at math or something. You say 8 dps casters (of which the Demo lock is one) and then multiply by 10? And why ignore the hps of the healers? Because it is harder to model?

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I am apparently failing at math or something. You say 8 dps casters (of which the Demo lock is one) and then multiply by 10? And why ignore the hps of the healers? Because it is harder to model?

The multiply by 10 is to scale the +dmg needed for each caster to = our loss in dps x10 to get the number of our personal spellpower to increase demonic pact to that number.

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Nope. Still don't get it.

500 dps loss / 1.45 to convert to spell power is 344. Divide by 8 for the casters is 43. (.1 ... repeater of course ). So DP in an 8 dps caster (ignoring healers) raid needs to average +323 SP from 3231 SP lock spell power at 100% uptime to equal ToW and cover the -500.

3590 at 90%

3800 at 85%

But that doesn't include the 3% crit, so we need to add math for that. And the real (modeled?) DPS loss for ToW.

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Nope. Still don't get it.

500 dps loss / 1.45 to convert to spell power is 344. Divide by 8 for the casters is 43. (.1 ... repeater of course ). So DP in an 8 dps caster (ignoring healers) raid needs to average +323 SP from 3231 SP lock spell power at 100% uptime to equal ToW and cover the -500.

3590 at 90%

3800 at 85%

But that doesn't include the 3% crit, so we need to add math for that. And the real (modeled?) DPS loss for ToW.

Your coming at it wrong

you have 500dps devided by 8 casters. or 62.5/ 1.45 to convert to the average spell damge coefficient of 43.1 spell power increase for each caster to reach that level.

In order for Us, the warlock to reach that number we have to hit the 280 average spelldamage mark of the totem + an adition 43.1 spelldamge from demonic pact. In order to hit that number demonic pact is 10% of our total spelldamge (minus the 9% extra from demonic aegis in this current patch) so you multiply 43.1*10 to get the total damange to add to the base demonic pact damage to break even and at that point you get 431+ spelldamage to hit average of 280 (refer to first chart for that number)

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the 3% crit gain is for ALL DPS including melee, so calculate what every class can lose if they have 3% less crit and add all that up as well. Now it gets complicated because each class scales crit differently and who knows what the group make up will be. Additionally, there is talk about Blizzard adding a personal DPS increase to the shaman from the totem to compensate for the "loss" of the searing totem which would make the whole discussion a moot point.

Also, Angaroth brings up another good point, does DP increase the output of healers? ToW definately does and I know for instance that our fel armor does not buff our "healing power" on our character sheets. So what does DP effect? And how to you put a theoretical DPS value to the healers being more effective with their heals and more efficient with their mana?

I feel, at best, until we are fully geared in Ulduar B.I.S. gear, we won't honestly be able to see a use for DP over ToW. If at all.

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Natasmai you are forgetting, Ret pallies bring the same ability, but it's only single target, so in most situations it's fine but in aoe fights you do lose something or another. But in this situation we aren't factoring that in we are just looking at the +dmg.

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Nope. Still don't get it.

But that doesn't include the 3% crit, so we need to add math for that. And the real (modeled?) DPS loss for ToW.

Ok for the 3% crit I think that can be covered by other classes. Ret pallies have Heart of the crusader and Rogues have master poisoner. Out of those two I don't think the rogues often take the master poisoner talent but I think the ret pally one is fairly standard.

A good place to see what stacks or does not stack for talents is at MMO-Champion RaidComp

I would love to see things pan out this way where a deep tree talent becomes useful.

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You are also assuming you will have one. As an alliance I can see that being more likely, but as horde (atleast on my server) Ret Pallies are almost as retarded as Huntards. We have one Elemental and one Ret Pally, the Elemental is our GM and obviously very reliable (also puts out FAR more DPS than the simulationcraft shows) and the Ret Pally is good but not so reliable. We have hunted for another and I have yet to see one with any level of competance to rely on.

I guess if you are trying to only model the "perfect" raid, then sure you get a single target buff from a ret pally. I still say that generally, ToW will just be a more reliable buff.

To clarify the above post I made, this was an observation based on my experiences in the game. There are many posts throughout these forums from people stating that they dont have an active Elemental and I feel it just as likely that a Ret would be absent. If you are trying to compare ToW vs. DP, you need to point out that you could have a loss of 3% crit as well. Yes, that debuff *could* come from somewhere else, but it is in all other cases inferior to the ToW and could in fact create another DPS decrease if a rogue would need to spec for it. Basically, you need 2 people to replace the one Shaman and have an inferior set of buffs while doing it especially in a situation where you have a "Council" type of fight that Blizzard loves to reinvent.

IMO, the discussion should be seperated into 2 issues. How much spellpower does the warlock need to have in order to supply the DP buff and have it suppliment his own personal DPS losses in the event you have no shaman? And How much spell power would the warlock need to have in order to completely overwrite the shamans ToW INCLUDING the crit loss and including the personal DPS increase to the shaman? I dont see how you can just assume the other buffs are covered by another class and write them off. It is important to know when a warlock crosses the threshold and becomes geared enough that he can supply the DP to his raid and not have it actually be a DPS loss overall. I dont think you can ever be geared enough to compensate for 3% crit to each raid DPS and the 280 SP, even if we assume that the warlock loss and shaman gain are a wash.

And as a side note, lets assume you dont have an elemental shaman, lets assume you do have another source for the 3% crit, couldnt we then also assume you have a Resto shaman who would be dropping Flametongue? 280-144=136 so your calculations are all wrong anyway. In reality, all a warlock needs to cover is 136 per caster, not 280. Also, people are quoting that various other fire totems do XXX DPS, but if a shaman were to drop that instead of ToW, the shaman is also losing the 280SP and possibly the 3% crit *if* there isnt a DP warlock, I don't expect any shaman would favor searing over ToW in that situation. Bottom line is that nothing that I have read in this thread is looking at the entire picture, everyone is picking little parts of the image that best proves their own theory. The big picture is too variable and complex to really look at accurately, but so far nothing I have seen is really helpful either, there are far too many assumptions being taken to favor one line of thought or another.

Oh and one other issue I have with this. In order to be completely accurate in this calculation, you need to know what DPS the warlock could do at that SP amount in the best spec, and the DP spec. Everyone is working off the fact that there is a XXX DPS loss from top spec to DP spec based on 2000 SP before buffs (from simcraft) and then calculating how much more the DP lock needs to equal the top spec, but the warlock would also have that same SP increase when specced top spec and therefore would increase DPS as well. One spec will more than likely scale better with the increase spell power and could in fact increase the difference between the two.

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We have one Elemental and one Ret Pally, the Elemental is our GM and obviously very reliable (also puts out FAR more DPS than the simulationcraft shows) and the Ret Pally is good but not so reliable. We have hunted for another and I have yet to see one with any level of competance to rely on.

I guess if you are trying to only model the "perfect" raid, then sure you get a single target buff from a ret pally. I still say that generally, ToW will just be a more reliable buff.

Simulationcraft will only be as reliable as the data you feed it. If your elemental shaman performs above and beyond what the Sim is showing you, then you need to adjust the gear values of your Elemental shaman in Simulationcraft.

I think you're forgetting about Sanctified Retribution Aura, however. Totem of Wrath supersedes Crusader (and Crusader will fall off the target), but don't discount a flat 3% dmg increase for the entire raid (edit: Replenishment as well). Even if your Paladin is terrible, they're probably leaving Retribution Aura active.

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Natasmai, you bring up some very interesting points on actual raid effect of this buff. I also consider the fact that Meta/Ruin is the only warlock spec that keeps the new 5% spell crit buff up 100% of the time in its natural rotation to be a large bonus. I know our mages are excited not to have to spec scorch anymore. What is more, we do not have an affliction lock, so we are going to be making it mandatory for one lock to be Meta/Ruin, and semi-unfortunetaly I am our lock with the highest spellpower.

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Natasmai, you bring up some very interesting points on actual raid effect of this buff. I also consider the fact that Meta/Ruin is the only warlock spec that keeps the new 5% spell crit buff up 100% of the time in its natural rotation to be a large bonus. I know our mages are excited not to have to spec scorch anymore. What is more, we do not have an affliction lock, so we are going to be making it mandatory for one lock to be Meta/Ruin, and semi-unfortunetaly I am our lock with the highest spellpower.

Your mages are likely going to spec Imp Scorch anyway, because it now has a selfish buff. The only thing a Demo lock would do is prevent them from having to keep Scorch up, which would result in a decent DPS increase.

I do agree that pretty early on in Uld, once the spell power threshold is hit, that a Demo lock will be a staple in the raid. Naturally keeping up 5% crit lets the mages ignore scorch, and post threshold they will provide a bigger raid benefit than ToW (assuming a second source of the 3% raid crit).

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The mage effect is something I also thought about and it is another good point to consider. Currently, Simcraft estimates a little over 500DPS loss to a rogue forced to spec Mutilate for the 3% crit debuff, the warlock loses about another 400DPS to spec meta. The gains expected from a mage not casting scorch are not known to me and I am interested if anyone knows it? I wouldnt expect it to be too much impact though, since only one mage needs to cast it and use the scorch glyph. The big question is how much damage does he gain from the GCD's which can be used on something else and how much effect does a different glyph have on him. The increase to the shaman is personally up for debate as well. Unless some major changes to the shaman pets are coming in 3.1, and I havent heard of any, there is no way a fire elemental does 900 DPS sustained for a 5 min fight. Likewise, the magma totem is not effective in most boss fights and only matters on trash, which doesnt matter anyway. That leaves a potential 400DPS increase by using searing totem on a boss fight. This sounds like a reasonable number, though if the Ulduar fights are as movement oriented as they say, and the areas the fight occurs in are large enough, there is a good chance that the boss may be dragged out of the totems range and not even have that much effect on the shaman anyway. Worst case the shaman has to recast it as the raid moves though so it might not be too much loss.

If we can then assume the warlock/shaman cancel each other out and IF the mage gains 500DPS not casting scorch (I doubt this) we could assume a wash on the rogue/mage as well, then the calculation we need is how much SP a warlock needs to compensate for the 136 SP loss from the ToW to the flametongue totem. Obviously this becomes much less if you wish to rely on a pally to supply the 3% crit, then you dont lose the 500DPS from the rogue and also you need to know the mage gains before you can truly calculate it.

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Was wondering if demo will compete with aff after 3.1 comes out?

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EDIT: The conclusions in this post are wrong, because DP uptime is at nearly 95% even at current gear levels - simcraft was wrong.

Unless I'm missing something about shaman mechanics, I think there's an obvious answer to the question of ToW vs DP: Both.

Even once the lock gets enough spell power from gear that his DP will always overwrite the ToW buff, the question becomes whether ( DPDowntime * 280 ) SP for the entire raid is better than the DPS of a searing totem.

Simcraft shows the DPS of a searing totem is about 375. Assuming an average DPS/SP scaling factor of 1.5 for 8 caster DPS in a raid, you'd need a DP downtime of less than 375/(1.5*8*280) = 11.1% before ToW would not be worth it.

Simcraft shows the necessary EV of 88.9% for DP uptime is reached at a completely unrealistic 1000 crit rating from gear.

What I do see as very viable is the ToW being replaced with a fire elemental totem every time the cooldown is up. But any elemental shaman dropping a searing totem is probably lowering raid DPS, even if there's a DP lock present.

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Was wondering if demo will compete with aff after 3.1 comes out?

You bet it will!

Check out the Simulationcraft thread here: http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-simulationcraft_post_3_1_specs/

You'll see that aside from the Affliction build with the Doomguard, the two top DPS specs are Demo hybrids.

We just have to cross our fingers that Bliz continues to buff the Meta build to make that a little more competitive. Although, if they were to do that, it would make this entire thread pointless, since you'll be able to put out top DPS AND buff the raid at the same time. So maybe we shouldn't hold our breath on that one.

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Unless I'm missing something about shaman mechanics, I think there's an obvious answer to the question of ToW vs DP: Both.

That is what we will be running.

We also have a Ret Pally for the 3% crit buff.

We try to balance our raids so that if any one person should die the raid buffs are still covered, and on almost all of our raid nights that is achieved. Shaman can ankh, so them being there to provide a buff is a little more reliable than other classes, but it always pays to have a backup, especially when pushing new content as we hopefully all will be doing soon.

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Zack, I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you keep up DP at x% you have to hit y Spelldmg to for y*x%/10=280.

Now to compensate for the lack of ~500personal dps, you make up 375dps so you have to bridge 125 dps from the raid as a whole from your dp. which is (125/8)/1.5 *10 or 104 additioanl spelldmg on top of the previous number to = equivalent SP increase and dps gain. Any SP above that is a dps increase for the raid over ToW.

So assuming 80% up time you would need 3500sp+104 to breake even for the dps. or 3604 spellpower. Every ounce of SP gained above that is a raid dps increase at 80% uptime vs the Sp from ToW.

Now if you don't have a ret palliy then you need ToW as well so you then have to bridge the gap of 500dps lost which is a much larger number, see above posts for that.

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Unless I'm missing something about shaman mechanics, I think there's an obvious answer to the question of ToW vs DP: Both.

Even once the lock gets enough spell power from gear that his DP will always overwrite the ToW buff, the question becomes whether ( DPDowntime * 280 ) SP for the entire raid is better than the DPS of a searing totem.

Simcraft shows the DPS of a searing totem is about 375. Assuming an average DPS/SP scaling factor of 1.5 for 8 caster DPS in a raid, you'd need a DP downtime of less than 375/(1.5*8*280) = 11.1% before ToW would not be worth it.

Simcraft shows the necessary EV of 88.9% for DP uptime is reached at a completely unrealistic 1000 crit rating from gear.

What I do see as very viable is the ToW being replaced with a fire elemental totem every time the cooldown is up. But any elemental shaman dropping a searing totem is probably lowering raid DPS, even if there's a DP lock present.

In that case simcraft is doing something wrong with searing totem, as I see it quite consistently acros numerous WWS parses do 400+. Also many fights will favor the use of the magma totem (though perhaps a more compelling argument could be made for 3% crit vs magma totem).

I also often see people bring up stuff that could reduce reduce demonic pact uptime; honestly what do you think happens to ToW on a fight like grobbulus? Either it's downtime is going to suck, or the shammy is going to take a big dps hit. It goes both ways.

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Zack, I'm not sure what you are getting at. If you keep up DP at x% you have to hit y Spelldmg to for y*x%/10=280.

Now to compensate for the lack of ~500personal dps, you make up 375dps so you have to bridge 125 dps from the raid as a whole from your dp. which is (125/8)/1.5 *10 or 104 additioanl spelldmg on top of the previous number to = equivalent SP increase and dps gain. Any SP above that is a dps increase for the raid over ToW.

So assuming 80% up time you would need 3500sp+104 to breake even for the dps. or 3604 spellpower. Every ounce of SP gained above that is a raid dps increase at 80% uptime vs the Sp from ToW.

I believe his point is that from the shaman's decision-making point of view, the DPS increase from searing needs to outweigh the DPS increase of having 280 spell power during DP downtime. In your example of 80% uptime, 0.2*280=56 spell power to the raid. 56*8*1.5=672 which is more than DPS from searing (using the much-used 8 caster 1.5 DPS per SP setting).

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In that case simcraft is doing something wrong with searing totem, as I see it quite consistently acros numerous WWS parses do 400+. Also many fights will favor the use of the magma totem (though perhaps a more compelling argument could be made for 3% crit vs magma totem).

When referring to "WWS parses do 400+" are you referring to the DPS of the totem or the value of individual hits?

Zak was referring to DPS. To infer the DPS from a WWS parse, simply divide the hits (and crits) by 2.5sec.

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When referring to "WWS parses do 400+" are you referring to the DPS of the totem or the value of individual hits?

Zak was referring to DPS. To infer the DPS from a WWS parse, simply divide the hits (and crits) by 2.5sec.

Wow Web Stats

This page will probably expire fairly soon, but basically the unit page of the 'pet', searing totem x, did 430 dps according to WWS. Actually referring to DPS.

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Turns out simcraft wasn't entirely correct in its assumptions regarding Demonic Pact mechanics - see the simcraft thread for details. The actual EV for DP uptime is actually around 95% even for current gear levels, meaning ToW will probably not be worth it unless you need the crit debuff.

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